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Coronavirus, now a Cost of Living Crisis: The threat to railway preservation


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I was puzzled why Lostock Hall shed was never considered.

 

ideal location, lots of history, would have been a great starter for mainline steam from Preston or even the sidings as used today for loco changes.

 

Certainly not hard to get visitors too, with its own station, close to M61 and Manchester.

 

 

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Every year I bring my kids over and we go on steam somewhere. Often Swanage, but we've also spent money at the Bluebell railway (near family), Pecorama, Vale of Rheidol, Ffestiniog and others. For this summer I had planned on at least the NRM York, the North Norfolk Railway, and possibly (if we ended up doing both coasts) the West Somerset Railway.

 

I've promised them York next year if we can travel. I'm not overly hopeful, my parents are aging and I'm not going to be the one to kill them by travelling internationally. 

 

We have so few decent railway heritage sites left here. There's nowhere in a 12 hour drive radius I can go to find a working steam engine as far as I can tell; nor any not-for-profit lines operating. Hell, with our sleeper service shut down until at least November I'd have to drive 12+ hours just to get a regular passenger train.

 

I hope the lines in the UK survive this - both the financial hit and the health impact on its volunteers and staff.

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15 minutes ago, Nova Scotian said:

 

I hope the lines in the UK survive this - both the financial hit and the health impact on its volunteers and staff.


they will be fine, they moan more than they cheer, and always have a spotlessly clean begging bowl ready and waiting.

 

 

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10 hours ago, adb968008 said:

I was puzzled why Lostock Hall shed was never considered.

 

ideal location, lots of history, would have been a great starter for mainline steam from Preston or even the sidings as used today for loco changes.

 

Certainly not hard to get visitors too, with its own station, close to M61 and Manchester.

 

 

 

Carnforth was originally chosen to be developed in conjunction with the Lakeside & Haverthwaite Railway, however the loss of a significant part of the L&H trackbed to the A5690 prevented that objective from being achieved.

 

The M61 didn't open until several years after Steamtown opened. Carnforth of course has its own station too....

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14 hours ago, RJS1977 said:

I wouldn't say Coventry was necessarily a "wrong product" or even a "wrong place" - it was a "niche product" for sure, and wasn't likely to attract the same number of visitors as a steam railway, but as I understand it it was a financially sustainable attraction - it was never intended to be a crowd puller.

One good thing about the location was that it was the other side of the road from the Midland Air Museum (which is very good, and well worth a visit) so you could visit both at the same time. 

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Possibly the only plus side is that with more unemployed and more on short time, there will be more younger members with time on their hands to volunteer. This seemed to be the experience in the 1980s. Voluntary work also often helps people back into paid work as well as improving mental health. 

 

Some railways that have reopened seem to be attracting good custom - the North Norfolk looked like it had more than they could handle when I went. I think there will be a lot of suppressed demand as things open up again in late 2021...

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On 19/08/2020 at 16:35, Nova Scotian said:

 

 

We have so few decent railway heritage sites left here. There's nowhere in a 12 hour drive radius I can go to find a working steam engine as far as I can tell; nor any not-for-profit lines operating.

 

 

 

WW&F is 8:30 from Halifax,  as is SR&RL.  I think both of them have steam, though you can't get there from here right now...(and it would take 14d:8h:30m on your return !).

 

If it's steam you are interested in, not rail steam, HMCS Sackville is always looking for interested people.  I have the contact details

 

I have only the 3' gauge steam & diesel @ Duncan, or the SRI(VI) freight ops on Vancouver Island...and 3.5>7.5" at SHAS)


There is also https://trecothiccreekandwindsorrailway.ca/ which might have steam rides on 7.x gauge...

 

This is an illustration of just HOW BIG Canada and the US are- it's 882 km from Halifax to SR&RL.  And that's not quite "next door", but it's close...

 

James

 

 

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40 minutes ago, Graham1960 said:

While what you are saying is all true, the current rules on finding work all look down on voluntary work as not being available or actively seeking work. The attitude of staff in job centres is that if people are spending time doing voluntary work, then they are not looking for jobs. The benefits system of the 80's allowed people to do unpaid work easily. As far as I aware the current system frowns on it.

Of course as unemployment rises the government might introduce schemes for voluntary bodies to take on unemployed staff. But most government funding schemes like this are a two edge knife. And the Voluntary body could end up with people who have no real interest in what they are doing as a project, but the cash is needed by them, so they employ them.      

All true and people may turn up to "volunteer" with no real interest, just to tick the box and perhaps more get in the way than assist.

 

While these unemployed volunteers may have the time available, there is the saying, "If you want something done, ask a busy person".

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6 hours ago, peach james said:

 

WW&F is 8:30 from Halifax,  as is SR&RL.  I think both of them have steam, though you can't get there from here right now...(and it would take 14d:8h:30m on your return !).

 

If it's steam you are interested in, not rail steam, HMCS Sackville is always looking for interested people.  I have the contact details

 

I have only the 3' gauge steam & diesel @ Duncan, or the SRI(VI) freight ops on Vancouver Island...and 3.5>7.5" at SHAS)


There is also https://trecothiccreekandwindsorrailway.ca/ which might have steam rides on 7.x gauge...

 

This is an illustration of just HOW BIG Canada and the US are- it's 882 km from Halifax to SR&RL.  And that's not quite "next door", but it's close...

 

James

 

 

That's actually a really interesting thought re. HMCS Sackville. I've been on a few times as a tourist, in a work capacity and one extremely odd invitation event.

 

Not a chance you're getting me to the US right now, even without COVID-19 it's not a place I want to be, which is a shame. However if I do end up going I spend much of my time in New Brunswick only an hour from the border (so only 4 1/2 hours away). The New Brunswick Train Museum in Hillsborough had/has lots of potential and some interesting rolling stock (the stuff kept inside at least, anything outside is rotting very quickly). But they've not steamed in two decades, I think most of the track they did steam on has gone, and I can't imagine it ever coming back.

 

Orangedale (Cape Breton), Sydney and Louisberg (CB) and middle musquodobit all disappointing, I think Orangedale used to run a switcher for a while, but certainly no more. Middleton is apparently about to gain a new resident, but again I can't imagine they'll ever get anything in steam or running. The loss of the Kentville roundhouse stings and I wasn't even in the province for it!

 

If someone buys me a lottery ticket that then wins maybe I'll find a stretch of railway no-one ever wants again, set up a preserved railway with some RDCs, couple of switchers, and end up bankrupt within 20 years :D

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On 24/09/2020 at 14:51, AMJ said:

Them and the Ffestiniog/Welsh Highland, I read today.  

The STR has very few staff so ironically is more likely to survive on purely volunteers, the FR/WHR much less likely.  It's a big railway with a lot of (mostly unavoidable) overheads.  Their strength though is a large membership to appeal to; one of the largest I believe (is the Severn Valley still the largest membership amongst UK heritage railways)?

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7 hours ago, peach james said:

 

 

This is an illustration of just HOW BIG Canada and the US are- it's 882 km from Halifax to SR&RL.  And that's not quite "next door", but it's close...

 

James

 

 

 

There's the story of a woman in England who put her son on a liner bound for Halifax and sent a telegram to her brother in Vancouver asking him to meet the young man when his ship docked in Canada,

 

Back came the reply "You go, you're closer...."

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On 24/09/2020 at 15:02, fezza said:

Possibly the only plus side is that with more unemployed and more on short time, there will be more younger members with time on their hands to volunteer. This seemed to be the experience in the 1980s. Voluntary work also often helps people back into paid work as well as improving mental health. 

 

 

As with other members posting on here, I'd be wary of that. Maybe railway volunteering is different, but my experience (admittedly 10 years back, when I graduated into the credit crunch) was that my local job centre anhored volunteering, as a distraction from job hunting.

I volunteered at a community cafe, because I was going mad sat at home or being told at interviews I had no experience, but when the job centre found out, I was investigated. I'd already told them, but it was declared "nobody works in a cafe for free!" so I ended up having to get my boss to come vouch for me, along with written testimonial from the chef and the board of trustees. The biggest joke? I wasn't even getting benefits, just my N.I stamp, as they said my wife should be supporting me...

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The only preserved railways and centres I've ever been to are I've been to The Yorkshire Wolds Railway (Fimber), The National Railway Museum (York), Beamish (been once but want to go again) and the North Yorkshire Moors Railway (Pickering-Grosmont (also to Whitby and occasionally Battersby). I've also been to the Aln Valley Railway in Alnwick.

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3 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

As with other members posting on here, I'd be wary of that. Maybe railway volunteering is different, but my experience (admittedly 10 years back, when I graduated into the credit crunch) was that my local job centre anhored volunteering, as a distraction from job hunting.

I volunteered at a community cafe, because I was going mad sat at home or being told at interviews I had no experience, but when the job centre found out, I was investigated. I'd already told them, but it was declared "nobody works in a cafe for free!" so I ended up having to get my boss to come vouch for me, along with written testimonial from the chef and the board of trustees. The biggest joke? I wasn't even getting benefits, just my N.I stamp, as they said my wife should be supporting me...

 

I had an argument with the job centre in hte early 2000s after being made redundant. Well two arguments actually - first they wanted me to do a CLAIT course to increase my emplyability (Computer Literacy and IT) - I had an A level in computer science and a degree in mechanical engineering which had extensive computer based content. I eventually said OK. Then when my final exam was booked I ended up being offered an interview for a job that was at the same time. They were absolutely adamant that I HAD to do the test and not the interview. I ignored the jobcentre and went to the interview and got the job. Eejits.

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8 hours ago, Ben B said:

 

As with other members posting on here, I'd be wary of that. Maybe railway volunteering is different, but my experience (admittedly 10 years back, when I graduated into the credit crunch) was that my local job centre anhored volunteering, as a distraction from job hunting.

Same here. I organised some unpaid work experience for myself in a country park run by the local council in between 6th Form and university, then failed my A levels spectacularly and flatly refused to re-sit them. I signed on but carried on volunteering as I was thoroughly enjoying myself, with the intention of applying for the next vacancy that came up. I wasn't even on Unemployment Benefit (having never paid NI) but they hauled me in anyway because the local authority was not on their list of non-profit making organisations at which volunteering was acceptable. As they weren't paying me anyway I ignored them. 

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1 hour ago, Graham1960 said:

Was the employment service paying for the course you did Buccops? Because that's the only thing that explain the attitude over the interview. Normally they just want you off the dole. So if you get a job, that's fine, but it doesn't matter to them, as long as you are not signing on.

 

 

Yes it was free for me so probably came out of their budget. I eventually did do the exam, 3 months later. Passed. Not bigheadedly, I'm sure if was a very useful course for people with no IT skills, but it certainly wasn't aimed at me. I just couldn't get my head round why they were adamant that I was not allowed an interview when I should have been taking the exam.

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3 hours ago, Graham1960 said:

Another thing that railway preserved lines should think twice about is the funding bodies you can get money from for doing things for. The Lottery and English Heritage. Especially if they are getting short of cash. One project I was connected with (not railway) got a large grant. But English Heritage had control of it. The "Friends" group running the project at that time was instantly look down the nose on by English Heritage. They didn't like the idea of a "friends group" running the project. There idea of a "friends" was something like those connected with the British Museum or one of the Royal estates. In otherwords no actual control of things like money. They insisted a separate company or project was set up to run the project and the friends group sidelined. This happened and caused 50% of the friends group to quit. The new "project" then had to put in place rules about who could volunteer in the project thinly disguised under health and safety rules. In many ways it altered the entire nature of the project. Giving more power to paid workers. As with many projects run by volunteers, some volunteers only like to do certain things, even such as providing drinks and refreshments on open days etc. But the new rules forced in place by the likes of English Heritage telling the funded body what to do, put an end to these people. They had to register, do this that and the other!

From what I have seen from Railway Heritage society stories, if they behaved by the rules they would have never got off the ground!    

 

That very much varies from one funding body to another.

 

I spent two years working on a particular funding stream right through to inspection of final projects and the main things we insisted on were

 

* That any items purchased were purchased outright and remained on the asset register for five years

* That items were only used for the purpose for which they were bought

* That the recipient kept their paperwork for five years in case we needed to see them to satisfy our auditors in future

* That the recipient sent us a report for each of the next three years to advise how the project had impacted their business (had it met their projections?)

* That the recipient displayed a plaque to say where the funding had come from

 

None of which I feel were particularly onerous.

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Revisiting the thread I started once again:

 

Well, this has gone on longer than I predicted.  The day after I started the thread I was sent to work at home and (with a brief period of furlough) that's what I've been doing ever since.  It is likely to continue well into the New Year, in fact I'm more than likely to spend a full year working from home.  Sure I'm not alone in that scenario.  One of my predictions of the impact of unemployment might also be exceeded if the ORR's prediction of 2.6m by mid-2021 comes to pass; the arrival now of vaccine(s) is such a relief but there will be (as always) quite a lag before recruitment picks up again, especially in the industries dependent on disposable income.

 

It is so pleasing to see how many enthusiasts have put their hands in their pockets to support preserved railways, but subsidising operations from subscription/donation cannot continue for much longer. Quite a lot of railways seem to have abandoned operations for long periods - even outside lockdown - this year.  Some have remained closed through the normally lucrative Santa period; that is a lot of income they've had to forego.  Government support has gone further than I expected but obviously cannot continue for ever; my prediction of perhaps half a dozen significant schemes not re-opening next year, or ever, still stands.  As for the generally well-run, biggest railways, I wonder if a few will get much smarter how they spend their money.  Some railways seem to rejoice in running far bigger locomotives than they really need to (the vast majority of visitors don't care how big the steam engine is, only that it is one); perhaps it appeals more to the volunteers?  Owners of big locos would find themselves struggling more than usual to earn hire fees.

 

Ironically, if some form of social distancing continues, then that gives the "living museum" or railway centres (which as has been discussed earlier, fell out of fashion in favour of locations offering a longer ride) an advantage as it is easier to keep people separate and encourage them to follow a defined route.  From what I've read of the current arrangements on operating railways, you seem to be increasingly confined to a train and unable to roam, as you're not supposed to mingle amongst fellow passengers.

 

In the middle of all this, there is always some light relief in the form of someone proposing a new preservation scheme, usually between one field and another via some more fields, but which are the only surviving remains of the Much Muddling Joint Railway and thus will offer a unique attraction.

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There are certain things that need to be considered for railways to be able to operate or even be open

 

Many of the folks who do voluntary work are unable to get to the railway as they are having to isolate due to age or medical restrictions.  At the start of lockdown 2.0 I sent mail to our chairman to indicate that even though it was due to end 2/12 that I expected restrictions to be in place longer (Leeds is T3) and I would make a decision in Jan 2021.

 

Due to social distancing it is not possible for many to be able to operate seasonal trains as there is a bottle neck of folks getting off one train and those waiting for the next without even considering the reduced capacity on trains.

 

Work still needs to be done on maintaining infrastructure, vegetation and rolling stock.  At the Middleton we have taken it as an ideal chance to do some building work giving us a longer window until spring 2021 to do the work.

 

Elsecar might be the first casualty when you look at this news story from the other week https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/local-news/elsecar-heritage-railways-future-doubt-18820835

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I looked through a number of preserved/heritage railway websites in the run up to Christmas. Was looking to purchase something for my father for Christmas, and wanted to support a preserved railway, but also find something "special".

 

I was not successful; far too much of the merchandise is poorly planned, "photos" sent to a Chinese manufacturer for a generic (and ugly) product. I wish they'd formed partnerships with local artisans to design unique and special products that reflect the region their in, their history, their railway. I checked six or seven, and about another ten didn't have online shops. I know e-commerce railway product shops isn't going to save them, but I want to do something. Supporting small business, local, and a preserved line would be a double win - as well as something that's actually meaningful. Did I miss something/somewhere?

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1 hour ago, Nova Scotian said:

Did I miss something/somewhere?

 

That visitors to preserved railways tend to either buy railway-specific stuff (books etc) or cheap tat suitable for school parties and kids rather than hand-crafted artisan products ? 

 

Having said that, the NYMR online shop has some nice stuff including vintage luggage. 

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2 hours ago, Nova Scotian said:

I looked through a number of preserved/heritage railway websites in the run up to Christmas. Was looking to purchase something for my father for Christmas, and wanted to support a preserved railway, but also find something "special".

 

I was not successful; 

Find out which railway(s) is/are convenient and/or of interest to him and buy him membership of the society.

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4 hours ago, Wheatley said:

 

That visitors to preserved railways tend to either buy railway-specific stuff (books etc) or cheap tat suitable for school parties and kids rather than hand-crafted artisan products ? 

 

Having said that, the NYMR online shop has some nice stuff including vintage luggage. 

Thanks - NYMR does have a better range than those I'd previously looked at. More unique, more local (although not all of it obviously). Swanage Railway had a couple of half decent articles. Was very disappointed by Bluebell Railway.


To the poster that suggested purchasing membership to society; good idea.

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Many of the preserved railways just use the website as a way to communicate information to the public (in varying degrees of success) 

 

I have said that even a basic shop for a railway needs, membership (new & renewal), donations, exclusive items such as stock books and histories etc.    Wonder if they are not wanting to have someone posting out items as active members are often busy doing many tasks.

 

However for online ticketing quite a few use 3rd parties who specialise in this type of item.  Some just use it for Satan trains in December others extend it to general admission.

 

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