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Greetings All, 

 

My OO gauge layout in progress is set on the LMS in the late 20s / early 30s.  My terminal station has an island platform and I want to build a balanced two-doll signal to act as the platform starters.  Space is a little constricted for separate posts and there are numerous precedents for using a balanced bracket instead.  In addition to the "main" route from each platform to the Up line, there is also a shunt move into a siding that trails into the down line.  As this shunt move is contrary to the normal running direction, I understand that it should be signalled via a separate ground signal next to the main post, rather than an elevated miniature arm?

 

Can anyone offer some pointers on where to start please?  I am aware that Wizard / MSE sell etches, but not being overly familiar with signal post anatomy I'm not sure what I need.  Besides which it appears that some of the etches I might need are out of stock.  Also I've never worked with etched brass before, although I'm willing to have a go.  Alternatively there's the Ratio LMS upper-quadrant bracket plastic kit, but I'd much prefer to have Midland lower-quadrants.

 

Can anyone give me any tips please?  Thanks in advance.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

They are, thank you

Over the years I have made several 4mm scale MRly signals, If I can help, please feel free to ask. Best Wishes, Mick.

Edited by micknich2003
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That is most kind, thank you.

 

I am piecing together a shopping list from Wizard, hopefully this will cover everything I need - 

 

Post - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s0017/

 

Brackets - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s008_2m/

 

Dolls - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s0033/ - (I've opted for a pair of short dolls as the arms need to be on the same level)

 

Set of arms (LQ) - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s005_1/

 

Finials - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/sc0012/

 

Lamps (LQ) - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/sc0023/

 

Ladder (23') - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/buildings/s009_7/

 

Post fittings (weights etc) - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/s001/

 

Brass tube and rod - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/116in-brass-tubing-0-8mm-brass-rod-t116/

 

And unrelated but for my own reference:

Ground frame - https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/buildings/4-lever-ground-frame-ls009/

 

 

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You look to have enough parts on order for your project, I will watch with interest. Best Wishes, Mick.

 

 

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Hi,

Not much to add but here is one of two I made recently using my own etched brass posts. I can't install them on the customers layout based on Chinley, at the moment due to COVID-19 restrictions on travel. I did notice that one of the cranks wasn't quite in the right place, now corrected.

chinley1.jpg

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^^^^^^ If my efforts look anywhere near half as good as that, I'm onto a winner :)

 

Going back to a question I asked earlier about signal placement - there's a siding that trails into the down line thus:

 

placement1.jpg.3e8e7a82c69903833000deaa2eebf17d.jpg

 

(other details such as runaround loop etc omitted for clarity)

 

Where would the best placement be for shunt signals from either platform into the down siding?  As I understand it, as the route is contrary to the normal direction (i.e. going up the down line), a ground signal would be used as opposed to a subsidiary arm on the main post?  If correct, would such signals both be placed at the foot of the post?  Or would the dummy for the upper platform be placed in the cess adjacent to the post as it reads to the right of the main arm?

 

Thanks in advance.

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I am not sure that that is correct. I had aways thought that the Midland used a small subsidiary arm, painted in the same way as a main stop signal, mounted below the main arm on the post/doll (or on a separate doll but that is unlikely here) to control access to sidings whichever side of the line those sidings might be. All the (relatively few) photo references that I could quickly find seem to support that opinion.

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13 hours ago, bécasse said:

I am not sure that that is correct. I had aways thought that the Midland used a small subsidiary arm, painted in the same way as a main stop signal, mounted below the main arm on the post/doll (or on a separate doll but that is unlikely here) to control access to sidings whichever side of the line those sidings might be. All the (relatively few) photo references that I could quickly find seem to support that opinion.

 

That is interesting, thank you for the info. I have looked at various track plans in the Midland region (though not necessarily for the Midland era) but failed to find a comparable site. 

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13 hours ago, bécasse said:

I am not sure that that is correct. I had aways thought that the Midland used a small subsidiary arm, painted in the same way as a main stop signal, mounted below the main arm on the post/doll (or on a separate doll but that is unlikely here) to control access to sidings whichever side of the line those sidings might be. All the (relatively few) photo references that I could quickly find seem to support that opinion.

I think that was the case as it is certainly what old photos suggest (and the photo in the Model engineer article posted by Mick also suggest the same to me.  Nock's series in The Model Engineer was a brilliant idea and is extremely helpful in adding knowledge of both contemporaneous and Pre-Grouping signals.   However as he was by profession a brake engineer and nota. signal engineer (although he worked for Westinghouse) I do wonder if some of the nuances, especially of subsidiary signals, were not caught in the series (although in some cases they are very good).

 

The entire subject of subsidiary signals had become somewhat tangled during the 1930s with some - to to our eyes - odd changes made to the Rule Book.  That included the re-definition of a Calling On Signal and the all pervasive use of the term Draw Ahead Signal which to me seems to have been used as much as anything else to cater for the numerous different pre-Group subsidiary signals still in use in that period.

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O S Nock was a signal engineer, but being an Engineer he also did brake work. At one time he was the President of the Institution of Railway Signal Engineers.

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A question arises from the illustration posted by micknich2003 - what is the bizarre pointwork at the right hand side of the foot of the signal? Is it possibly some sort of track relaying going on as there seems to be an incomplete junction on the left hand side?

 

Just curious.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

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Judging from the new-looking timbers stacked alongside, I would guess 'work in progress' ?

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23 hours ago, Titanius Anglesmith said:

^^^^^^ If my efforts look anywhere near half as good as that, I'm onto a winner :)

 

Going back to a question I asked earlier about signal placement - there's a siding that trails into the down line thus:

 

placement1.jpg.3e8e7a82c69903833000deaa2eebf17d.jpg

 

(other details such as runaround loop etc omitted for clarity)

 

Where would the best placement be for shunt signals from either platform into the down siding?  As I understand it, as the route is contrary to the normal direction (i.e. going up the down line), a ground signal would be used as opposed to a subsidiary arm on the main post?  If correct, would such signals both be placed at the foot of the post?  Or would the dummy for the upper platform be placed in the cess adjacent to the post as it reads to the right of the main arm?

 

Thanks in advance.

Hi,

 

Not 100% sure but as far as I know, the calling on arms were of a "hammerhead" design (MSE 7mm still available but 4mm withdrawn for redesign - the current etches for the normal type of arms are much better but not yet in 7mm scale - Scale Signal Supplies are the best option there but not so easily obtained), mounted on the same post below. Shunt signals were ground signals.

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5 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

Hi,

 

Not 100% sure but as far as I know, the calling on arms were of a "hammerhead" design (MSE 7mm still available but 4mm withdrawn for redesign - the current etches for the normal type of arms are much better but not yet in 7mm scale - Scale Signal Supplies are the best option there but not so easily obtained), mounted on the same post below. Shunt signals were ground signals.

I believe they were, but a 'calling on' arm would not usually be appropriate IMHO for the purpose of entry into a siding.

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1 hour ago, RailWest said:

I believe they were, but a 'calling on' arm would not usually be appropriate IMHO for the purpose of entry into a siding.

I don't think i suggested it would be, quite the contrary. A Midland ground signal wouldsurely be the order of the day.

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Thanks All for the responses

 

23 hours ago, Stephen Freeman said:

A Midland ground signal wouldsurely be the order of the day.

 

Any advances on ground signal, anyone?

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We have already told you that the Midland, and the LMS subsequently, would have used miniature semaphore arms (not the Midland hammerhead ones but the same size without the hammerhead) mounted underneath the main running signals on each doll to control admission to the siding (even though it is to the right and not, as is more commonly the case, to the left). Incidentally the dolls each side of the bracket would have been the same height and the height of the main and subsidiary signal arms would also be the same on each of the two dolls.

 

I now realise that you have gained the impression from LMS Signalling that discs would have been used but this would only have been the case if the signal applied to moves (part-way, doubtless to a SHUNT LIMIT sign) along the arrival road, but your's doesn't because it applies for moves into the siding (albeit briefly via the arrival road).

 

Disc signals mounted on the bracket would be wrong, disc signals on the ground would be even more wrong.

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Yes a quick search on midland railway signalling will throw up plenty of images of the signals required

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Quite right, I am easily confused.  I've definitely seen LMS installations (post 1928) with ground signals mounted adjacent to the running signal's post.  As I understand it, the LMS continued with pre-grouping practice up until c1928.  

 

Subsidiary arms on the main dolls it is then - 

 

placement2.jpg.bd6df05cd9e7c65317e1e3da81eb71e3.jpg 

 

What about the vertical spacing between the arms?  The article helpfully posted above by @micknich2003 shows a 6' spacing between stop and distant arms on the single post, but the photo of the stop signal with calling-on arm appears to be less.  I estimate 4' from that photo, and other photos online suggest the same (and as per the article, the lower arm should be 3' 6" from the landing).

 

Thanks all

 

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Only a best guess based on one of the St.Pancras photos in Nock's article, lower (subsidiary) arm centreline 3'-6" above the bracket walkway, upper (main) arm centreline 4'-6" above that (ie 8'-0" above walkway), both dolls the same.

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As an aside both types are provided for on the currently available etch from Wizard but the one with calling on arms (hammerhead) isn't currently available in 4mm scale (7mm is). Perversely the new 4mm scale etch is not yet available in 7mm scale.

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On a tangent, can anyone confirm please if this MSE kit -

https://www.wizardmodels.ltd/shop/signals/midland-railway-acfield-ground-signals-gs005/

 

 - represents this type of ground signal?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Midland_Railway_lower-quadrant_shunt_signals_(6156514069)_(2).jpg

 

Unfortunately there's no photo of it on Wizard's site.  Thanks

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I don't think so.

 

But check out Steve Hewitt's thread on here. I think he has just done some of these. Some good footage anyway of working ground signals for you to enjoy.

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