Late-1980s Loco hauled trains Glasgow South Western

[hexagon789]

In the early 1980s, the remaining through services over the ex-Glasgow & South Western mainline to Carlisle via Kilmarnock and Dumfries were formed of rakes of usually 5 vacuum braked, steam heated Mk1s.

 

This is what I understand based on the 1983 Scottish Region carruage marshalling book.

 

My question is what sort of stock formed these services from Glasgow Central via Kilmarnock and Dumfries to Carlisle immediately before the introduction of the 156s?

 

I think they must still have been locos and stock as most are marked in the 1988 timetable as conveying a trolley, which I don't think would fit through the seats, so I'm reasonably confident they would be loco-hauled.

 

My guess is 47/4s(?), but I've no idea of whether these workings remained Mk1s until Sprinterisation or whether Mk2s made an appearance. And would anyone know what a typical formation would be in around 1988 as well?

 

Thanks.

[Joseph_Pestell]

From personal experience, I can certainly confirm the situation as you describe for the early 80s.

 

For the late 80s, I would have to rely on reports in the press. I don't recall from them any Mk2s nor DMUs.

 

Rakes might have been increased to 7 for more braking power and higher speeds.

[Flood]

These photos on Flickr from July 1987 and May 1988 show what would seem to be the usual service consist:

 

 

 

47/4: 2 SK, BSK, SK

 

In addition Stranraer had a service to and from Euston every day. May 1987 to May 1988 they were formed BSO, 3 TSO, FK, RBR, FK, 3 TSO, BSO allocated to Manchester Longsight. The RBR was Mk1, the rest of the stock was normally Mk2 air-con but there was a number of Mk2C BSO vehicles also allocated which can be seen on photos at that time.

 

Overnight there was a Stranraer sleeper train each way which used one of the daytime half sets i.e. BSO, 3 TSO, FK as well as the sleeping cars.

 

In May 1988 the Euston rakes changed to BFK, RMB, 5 TSO, with loco hauled trains finishing in October 1988. The sleeper service continued until May 1990.

 

Glasgow to Stranraer workings seem to have been 47/4: 2 TSO, BSO, 2 TSO (Mk2a/b/c), as below, but these went via Kilwinning and not along the G&SW.

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2020 by Flood

[hexagon789]

4 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

From personal experience, I can certainly confirm the situation as you describe for the early 80s.

 

For the late 80s, I would have to rely on reports in the press. I don't recall from them any Mk2s nor DMUs.

 

Rakes might have been increased to 7 for more braking power and higher speeds.

Just because of the tendency on many (though by no means all of course) for steam heat, vac brake Mk1s to become pressure vent, air brake Mk2s over the course of the 1980s, I wondered if it applied to the G&SW Carlisle trains, as the Stranraer trains seemed to become Mk2s by the late-1980s.

 

While I can never remember the number of coaches for running at certain speeds, the limit then as now on the G&SW was 70 to Kilmarnock, 75 to Dumfries and up to 80 to Gretna Junction, so I'm not sure shorter formations would've impacted that much on speeds other than on the shared section of the WCML into Carlisle but I can appreciate the point in your comment about running a longer train. Certainly ScotRail had aspirations to upgrade the line to a sustained 90mph, while singling more of it, in the early/mid-1980s.

 

3 hours ago, Flood said:

These photos on Flickr from July 1987 and May 1988 show what would seem to be the usual service consist:

Cheers, I tried flickr but seemed to only turn up either steam days or post-Sprinterisation, with a few early 1980s shots or shots of WCML diverts. The ScotRail Carlisle trains were elusive!

 

3 hours ago, Flood said:

47/4: 2 SK, BSK, SK

Interesting use of an all compartments formation, I hadn't expected that with a trolley service.

 

I assume by virtue of it being a /4, that they were electric heated the Mk1s? Also, do you know if they were vacuum or air braked?

 

3 hours ago, Flood said:

In addition Stranraer had a service to and from Euston every day. May 1987 to May 1988 they were formed BSO, 3 TSO, FK, RBR, FK, 3 TSO, BSO allocated to Manchester Longsight. The RBR was Mk1, the rest of the stock was normally Mk2 air-con but there was a number of Mk2C BSO vehicles also allocated which can be seen on photos at that time.

 

Overnight there was a Stranraer sleeper train each way which used one of the daytime half sets i.e. BSO, 3 TSO, FK as well as the sleeping cars.

 

In May 1988 the Euston rakes changed to BFK, RMB, 5 TSO, with loco hauled trains finishing in October 1988. The sleeper service continued until May 1990.

 

Glasgow to Stranraer workings seem to have been 47/4: 2 TSO, BSO, 2 TSO (Mk2a/b/c), as below, but these went via Kilwinning and not along the G&SW.

Thanks for the details, would the Glasgow-Stranraer services ever divert via the G&SW, or would you only really see the Euston sleeper and day train?

 

 

 

[Flood]

Steam heating was finished in 1987 so they would have been dual heat stock with the steam heat inoperative. Certainly vacuum braked for the G&SW Mk1 stock, the Stranraer Mk2 stock is air braked.

 

Personally I know next to nothing about the G&SW. I only knew of a few photos because the Stranraer sets were the same consist as the Clansman from May 1987 to May 1988 and I happened to be researching that this week!

 

Stranraer trains could have taken the G&SW to Kilmarnock and then reversed, Kilmarnock was also where the Euston trains diverted off the G&SW to Stranraer.

 

If I can run the Edinburgh portion of the Clansman to Aberdeen for a winter timetable I'm sure you can have some G&SW diversions. The line certainly had WCML trains diverted along it on occasions.

[caradoc]

I only recorded the consist of one GSW passenger train, on Saturday 2nd April 1983, so too early for the OP (sorry !), but for the record, the 1730 Glasgow C-Carlisle was formed by;

25060

M35309, M26001, M25737, M16153, M26017, M25781, M35279. A nicely symmetrical set !

 

 

 

[hexagon789]

Thanks guys

[IC126]

I have a couple of shots that might assist - the first was taken in late summer 1986 showing 47530 and Mk1 19008

 

I spent the day on the platform of the station for Kilmarnock Open Day 11-09-1988 - this event as I recall was organised to mark the introduction of Sprinters to the route. I have a similarly composed photo (too blurry to  post) taken in the morning with the leading vehicle identifiable as Mk 2a BSO 9436. 

I'm not sure whether this afternoon train was a regular set, or a replacement given that the service would shortly go over to Sprinters - A named 47 (not sure which one) with most of the vehicles on this working in Intercity red stripe livery.