Pontrilas Station: A counterfactual in 4mm

[Harlequin]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I realise that space may be an issue but you should try to avoid having the two crossovers end-to-end. And likewise the branch connection too close to the second crossover. Ideally, you would have at least a full loco length (or wagon if longer) between them.

Or take the opposite approach and use slip crossings?

Maybe not appropriate for the target era but you could say that they had not yet been rationalised and they would certainly help with space compression.

 

Edit: Sorry, I should have read more of the preceding discussion about slips.

Edited March 25, 2020 by Harlequin

[Joseph_Pestell]

37 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Or take the opposite approach and use slip crossings?

Maybe not appropriate for the target era but you could say that they had not yet been rationalised and they would certainly help with space compression.

 

 

Yes, a reasonable approach. Perhaps the best is the one double-slip and then a turnout onto the branch - as per the original. Two slips might look a bit crowded in a rural location such as this.

[ed1234]

49 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

I realise that space may be an issue but you should try to avoid having the two crossovers end-to-end. And likewise the branch connection too close to the second crossover. Ideally, you would have at least a full loco length (or wagon if longer) between them.

 

Interesting. I have learned a lot about layout planning (and real railways) in the last few posts, so thanks for your thoughts. I can certainly move the mainline crossover back towards the left of the diagram to provide a loco's gap between the yellow pair of points (the branch connection) and the mainline ones. It might mean the mainline crossover is between the station platforms (though right at the end of them), but so be it.

 

1 hour ago, Philou said:

 

 

...Additionally, at some time there was a single loop on the down line from Hereford, from which the chemical works took access, with a siding on the up line that was converted to a loop, making in effect a short section of 4 tracks on the Hereford side of the station....

 

Thanks Philip for your thoughts. The chemical works and its associated line has always intrigued me. The only useful online source I have found about what it was up to is this report from a local historical society. I don't really have space to model it, and even in my economically dubious alternative history, small rural chemical works primarily producing naptha would have been long gone by the 1990s (in reality it was gone by the 1930s!). If this were a 2020s model then maybe The Golden Valley Ciderworks (also on the site) would have become a trendy artisan cider manufacturer with an eco-friendly railway siding.

 

On the 1920s plan the line is still present. Its angle, plus the need to get up the embankment, must mean it joined the mainline a good distance away from Pontrilas station. One day if I get to visit Pontrilas in real life, I'd like to see if there's any remaining hint of the sloped embankment. 

[Philou]

Looking at the Ordnance Survey plans, the siding took its access from the loop, but not that far away. I think there may have been a somewhat steep grade into the site - I've modelled my plan on a 1:40 gradient. There's an interesting photo of the works as was that shows a huuuuge amount of tree trunks waiting to be processed. I wondered if apart from naphtha whether they did creosote as that was pretty well used anywhere as a wood preserver. Bit out of your time scale I know.

 

Coming back to the question of slip or no slip, there was most definitely one on the main, whereas the Golden Valley branch was served via points back-to-back, but back-to-back with the pointwork leading into the goods yard. They were pretty much tight against each other with perhaps just a half-wagon's length between them.

 

I know that you're probably not going for absolute accuracy (who can given space limitations?), but consider - would BR have bothered to relay the junctions at a cost and disruption to traffic? All you need to do is juxtapose the positions of your main-to-branch crossovers (slip or not) with the turnout into the yard and Robert is your mother's uncle!

 

In maintaining realism, the turnout of the crossover DID start within the limits of the platform with a barrow crossing linking both ends of the platform running through the end of that first turnout.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, Philou said:

Looking at the Ordnance Survey plans, the siding took its access from the loop, but not that far away. I think there may have been a somewhat steep grade into the site - I've modelled my plan on a 1:40 gradient. There's an interesting photo of the works as was that shows a huuuuge amount of tree trunks waiting to be processed. I wondered if apart from naphtha whether they did creosote as that was pretty well used anywhere as a wood preserver. Bit out of your time scale I know.

 

Coming back to the question of slip or no slip, there was most definitely one on the main, whereas the Golden Valley branch was served via points back-to-back, but back-to-back with the pointwork leading into the goods yard. They were pretty much tight against each other with perhaps just a half-wagon's length between them.

 

I know that you're probably not going for absolute accuracy (who can given space limitations?), but consider - would BR have bothered to relay the junctions at a cost and disruption to traffic? All you need to do is juxtapose the positions of your main-to-branch crossovers (slip or not) with the turnout into the yard and Robert is your mother's uncle!

 

In maintaining realism, the turnout of the crossover DID start within the limits of the platform with a barrow crossing linking both ends of the platform running through the end of that first turnout.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

 

 

 

The back-to-back nature of the points between the goods yard and the Golden Valley Line would not be a problem. The routes concerned would not create a reverse curve which is always a likely source of derailments (both 1:1 and 1:76).

 

It's difficult to transpose a 1940s trackplan to the 1980s/1990s unless, as you posit, BR has not got round to modernising it, not an unreasonable assumption when you consider that we still have a lot of mechanical signalling on this route.

 

What we do know is that, to increase capacity, facing leads were introduced during WW2 for loops in both directions. In the Hereford direction that was by replacing a single slip with a double slip. OP could stick with that or go for a simpler (and more likely) arrangement using turnouts, so long as he has enough space (length) to do that.

[Harlequin]

@ed1234 It might be worth considering how to fit the layout into the space in a more holistic way. By working in conceptual modules you may be missing out on valuable scenic length.

 

Edited March 25, 2020 by Harlequin

[5BarVT]

From reputable hearsay, the double slip in the main lines was still there in the 70s (and caused our p-way colleagues lots of bother).  It has since been replaced by two crossovers.  If modelling modern, I would suggest Xovers, otherwise double slip.

Paul.

[Philou]

@ed1234 I just happened to read the HAN report - so thank you for that. I note that creosote was not one of the by-products of the works - not that it mattered as I was musing whether I could justify some rectangular tank wagons - seemingly I can, given all the other chemicals produced.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[ed1234]

8 hours ago, Harlequin said:

@ed1234 It might be worth considering how to fit the layout into the space in a more holistic way. By working in conceptual modules you may be missing out on valuable scenic length.

 

 

Thanks Phil, you raise a good point. Unfortunately the garage is a place of many hobbies so the railway will need to come apart and go back together every now and then. We also live in a hurricane zone with a reasonably high probability that at some point I will need to ensure it is out of harm's way if the entire garage gets flooded - a much easier task if it breaks down into 150cm units.

[ed1234]

Thanks all for the thoughts on slips, double slips and suchlike. After a bit more playing in RMPro, I was wondering what you all thought of this arrangement:

 

 

I have inserted two double slips - the left most one to address the issue discussed further up the chain (trains being able to get onto the GVR from Newport (green line) and off the GVR towards Newport (maroon line), and the one on the right to facilitate trains from Hereford (maroon line) getting into the bay platform / siding, and also permit bay platform trains to head up to Hereford (green line) if necessary.

 

I have also moved the turnout that leads to the GVR (the right-most yellow turnout) 30cm (approx 23 scale metres) to the right, so there is a bit of space between the station turnouts/slips and the GVR 'junction'. In diagrammatic form this now all looks quite neat, and it seems (from comments above) to be closer to how Pontrilas actually was when it was operational. 

 

There is space to achieve this outcome solely with turnouts (no double slips) so if wiser heads than mine tell me this would be an unrealistic track plan by 1995, I will rejig some more.

[Melangoose]

On 21/03/2020 at 21:09, ed1234 said:

Trains that might not be technically correct. I know HSTs generally went north out of Hereford and not south to Newport, but I can't promise one won't pass through for no reason other than I like the shape of them and they scratch a nostalgia itch. 

 

On your first post you mention about HST’S, they did run empty very early In the morning from ST Phillips Marsh to Hereford via Severn Tunnel, Maindee Junction (just east of Newport) and up the Marches line (through Pontrilas) to Hereford. To form the first train to Paddington, and empty from Hereford south to Bristol in the evening.

 

[Gopher]

On 24/03/2020 at 09:54, Captain Kernow said:

Do you mean this? - https://www.buckshillmodelrailwayin7mm.com/

 

Yes Captain - that is the layout I recall.  Thanks 

[ed1234]

Baseboard assembly

 

I decided to start making the board that contains the station first, and move 'north' up the model. There's no particular reason for this other than it's probably the most interesting board for modelling, and was going to test various of my proposed approaches to the scenic elements.

 

 

The advantage of building everything in SketchUp is that you can 'flatten' out all the elements to minimise waste of plywood. Where I am located, a sheet of 15mm birch plywood can easily cost £60. The red elements are the first section, yellow are the second, and there's even space for some of the third board (the blue).

 

 

Taking shape

 

I didn't take any pictures of cutting out the plywood, because I didn't think it was very interesting. I used my circular saw, a fairly new plywood cutting blade and my 'homemade saw track' which is just a piece of plywood and a 90 degree fence. For important joints where minimising tear-out was important, I put masking tape along the cut line.

 

Slowly the pieces took shape (by coincidence the camera angle here is about the same as the 3D model above!).

 

[ed1234]

Fitting the surface

 

I had always envisaged using a thin plywood for the surface, and in the event went for 1/8". In retrospect I should have used 1/4" as it would have required less 'underbracing' between the main spine of the boards. But it did mean I could cut it with a sharp Stanley knife. I made a cardboard mock-up first to get my dimensions, so I could trace onto the thin ply. The handprint on the garage door isn't mine, and indeed pre-dates our ownership of the house. Who knows what the last owners used this room for...

 

 

...and here's the ply version:

 

 

The ply was glued and tacked down with panel pins.

 

Around this same time, we had some builders in to re-do our pool, and the new tiles arrived in several crates surrounded on all sides by 1.5" thick polystyrene, which I saved from the tip (much to the amusement of the builders).

Edited March 30, 2020 by ed1234
(Hit 'post' too early!)

[Philou]

Just caught up with your thread and to let you know that tomorrow (Monday) my first materials are due to arrive for rebuilding the floor - together with other materials that Mrs Philou has decided that she would like me to use for her .

 

I'm sure you'll still beat me to post tho'

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Mallard60022]

I am sure that *someone has said that the Station House is/was a Holiday let and the owners back when I went there were total railway buffs. Absolutely piles of local railway info available.

I went mid early/mid 90s and the freight was quite frequent and  overnight and I saw a few Timber Train shunts too.

I haven't checked if it is still a B & B/Holiday let.

Phil

*Edit: Oops, it were me almost at the start that mentioned this....sorry. Looks like the place is coming to life. Well done.

Edited June 21, 2021 by Mallard60022

[Gopher]

There are currently discussions on reopening the station.

 

https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/19354268.herefordshire-mp-issues-update-proposed-new-railway-station/

[ed1234]

12 hours ago, Mallard60022 said:

 

*Edit: Oops, it were me almost at the start that mentioned this....sorry. Looks like the place is coming to life. Well done.

 

Thanks Phil. Pontrilas version 1.0 is now somewhere in the landfill in the Cayman Islands, due to a series of both fortunate events (admittedly not for the model!) that meant we were able to sell our house and plan our return home to the UK. I have learned many lessons to apply to Pontrilas 2.0 in due course when we settle.

 

In the meantime, here are some pictures of how far I got (not very!), against an image from the Flickr site of Jim Knight. See if you can tell which is the model and which is the real image:

 

 

 

I shall leave this thread in existence until such time as the mods decide to delete it, as what would RMWeb be without some long abandoned layouts?

 

[Mallard60022]

17 hours ago, Gopher said:

There are currently discussions on reopening the station.

 

https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/19354268.herefordshire-mp-issues-update-proposed-new-railway-station/

The Good people of the area's  comments seems........ I think not!!!!! However a P & R from south of the River would maybe help the traffic situation.

Hilarious.

11 hours ago, ed1234 said:

 

Thanks Phil. Pontrilas version 1.0 is now somewhere in the landfill in the Cayman Islands, due to a series of both fortunate events (admittedly not for the model!) that meant we were able to sell our house and plan our return home to the UK. I have learned many lessons to apply to Pontrilas 2.0 in due course when we settle.

 

In the meantime, here are some pictures of how far I got (not very!), against an image from the Flickr site of Jim Knight. See if you can tell which is the model and which is the real image:

 

 

 

I shall leave this thread in existence until such time as the mods decide to delete it, as what would RMWeb be without some long abandoned layouts?

 

The layout at the top is far too plastic looking  Ed! Good Station Building though: scratch or kid adaptation?

Incidentally I nearly got a job with some sort of Government Education Dept in the Caymans in the 80s. Didn't have a clue what I was going to teach out there! Calculus? Interesting Finance? The Joy of Tax? 

Phil

[Fat Controller]

On 21/06/2021 at 13:03, Mallard60022 said:

I am sure that *someone has said that the Station House is/was a Holiday let and the owners back when I went there were total railway buffs. Absolutely piles of local railway info available.

I went mid early/mid 90s and the freight was quite frequent and  overnight and I saw a few Timber Train shunts too.

I haven't checked if it is still a B & B/Holiday let.

Phil

*Edit: Oops, it were me almost at the start that mentioned this....sorry. Looks like the place is coming to life. Well done.

IIRC, the owners were RCTS members, and the holiday let used to be advertised in the Railway Observer.

 

[Mallard60022]

5 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

IIRC, the owners were RCTS members, and the holiday let used to be advertised in the Railway Observer.

 

I wonder if they are still there? They had a running list of everything that passed. Years ago they had seen every existing Class 66 at the time pass the place. That was pre the allsorts and renumbering.

Lovely people.

P

[R.Langley]

On 25/03/2020 at 22:51, Melangoose said:

 

On your first post you mention about HST’S, they did run empty very early In the morning from ST Phillips Marsh to Hereford via Severn Tunnel, Maindee Junction (just east of Newport) and up the Marches line (through Pontrilas) to Hereford. To form the first train to Paddington, and empty from Hereford south to Bristol in the evening.

 

Developing on this slightly, for a time (certainly by 2009 these had stopped) there were two early weekday morning FGW service (formed HST) that started from Abergavenny and ran north to Hereford then to Paddington.
Starting from Abergavenny at 05.11 and 06.09 which was "The Cathedrals Express".

[Philou]

@ed1234 I'd thought I'd revive your thread. A race may be on. Since my last entry on your thread, a new floor in the barn has been laid but a lack of materials and cold weather this winter has meant a very slow start though on my other thread, I had given myself a year to get the layout underway -

 

 

Following your 3D marvels, I had a go at doing the buildings, so here's my effort of Pontrilas station posted elsewhere a few days ago, modelled before the station was enlarged (c. 1910?) with the water tank as part of the building:

 

 

 

I hope you got back to the UK safely and have been able to restart your layout.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

Edited March 13, 2022 by Philou
Weird. The message submitted itself without me doing anything!

[Philou]

On 13/03/2022 at 17:35, Philou said:

I had given myself a year to get the layout underway -

 

I know it's considered 'bad form' to quote oneself, but a year is nearly up and today 12 sheets of 10mm ply arrived chez Philou. Monday a serious start will be made cutting and assembling ply to make baseboards - the race is on! I hope @ed1234 is OK.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip

[Philou]

 So as not to hog @ed1234's thread, the layout construction, starting Monday, can be found under 'Dymented - the Serious stuff starts!' Skip to page 18 if you don't want to read about the serious grunt that went into getting the room ready.

 

Cheers,

 

Philip