woodbine Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 (edited) Sorry in advance if you feel this question has already been answered several times, but the more I search the more confused I have become, to the point of paralysis. First I should say I'm not a complete beginner, having three times successfully used Autodesk Fusion 360 (free for hobbyists) for 3D printing, and converting the .STL files to .gcode with Ultimaker (free) and printing at the public library Ultimaker machine (which is closed for the foreseeable due to the virus). I now need to etch some windows for a signal cabin, for which PPD needs cdr/dwg/dxf/ai/eps/dgn/pdf . Fusion will do dwg or dxf and I can export a"top" view of a 3d model of the frames with two depths shaded black or red. But I don't know if that is suitable as they stand for PPD, or whether they need "finishing" somehow in another program. And then, not wanting to miss any of the subjects of the forum, "3D Printing, Etching, and Laser Cutting", I would also like to laser cut the plates of a wagon turntable in mdf, as etching in brass would be too problematic electrically. So that seems to require .SVP output. I have been fooling around all week downloading Doublecad XT5 (free version), Solid Edge (free version) and Inkscape (free) and they all do different things and output different file formats. Bearing in mind that I only need very occasional use (maybe once or twice each per year), i don't really want to have to learn how to operate too many new programs at my age. So the question is - In order to do 3d print, etching, and laser cutting, which suite of program/programs would be the minimum I would need to do all three? *Edit-and if anybody bites, I will proceed to HOW. Edited March 22, 2020 by woodbine Addition Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Royal Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Hi Woodbine I can only answer 1/2 your question ... that of creating artwork for etching. As you already have presumably a 3D model of the item you require to etch when you are completely satisfied with your 3d item create a sketch in the plane that you wish the item to be etched in. Then "Project" the faces of the item onto the sketch. Export this as a dxf file Open dxf file in an "artwork" package (I use Adobe Illustrator, other makes are available). This will give you the outlines of your items. You basically need to make a mirror of your original artwork, so that you have the original and the mirror. The mirror will become the transparency for the back whilst the original will become the transparency for the front. PPD have a great tutorial guide Here I'm only guessing but as its windows it will have some half etched detail on the front but the back will be full metal. Half Etch Front Detail will be on the front transparency and will be RED in colour Half Etch Rear Detail will be on the rear transparency and will be BLUE in colour Full Metal will be on both front and back transparency and will be Black in colour. Hope that helps Mark 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted March 22, 2020 Share Posted March 22, 2020 Fusion is no good for etched parts since you can't fill the areas you're etching with a colour. It should work for simple laser cutting as long as the people doing it could accept DXF and you just need plain shapes cutting, no engraving. That said you can use your fusion sketches as a basis for the 2d etch files, export as DXF and open in something else and manipulate. I use this method in conjunction with TurboCAD to create etch artwork. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted March 22, 2020 Author Share Posted March 22, 2020 Thanks both. So it looks like I can use Fusion 360 to draw the basic precision work then = for 3D - export as .STL to Ultimaker Cura (or similar 3D rendering software which matches the printer available), (done that), or for etching - export a selected plane as a .DXF to Inkscape for further processing (ie. colouring in shapes for full etch, half etch, solid metal) and for laser cutting - export a selected plane as a .DXF to Inkscape for further processing (i.e. cut lines and engrave areas). If so then as a basis that would mean I only need to master Inkscape as an extra, as I already know Fusion. Brilliant! I know that Doublecad was good at 2D technical drawing too, as I managed to make an array of little circles spaced equally along a curved line which I failed to do in either Fusion or Inkscape (so far, unless somebody knows different), and it too will export .dxf files, so I may resort to that if necessary. I appreciate that there are paid for programs that may be better for those who can justify the expense, but for an amateur I think it should be enough? I will be back with more questions later, no doubt Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Al51 Posted March 23, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted March 23, 2020 To get an array of circles on a curved line in Fusion 360 try using 'Circular Pattern' or 'Pattern on Path' under the Create menu. Make one Circle and extrude it first before trying to pattern. Example of both: Al 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold kipford Posted March 24, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted March 24, 2020 I must admit I have never met any laser cutter software that will not accept a .dxf file and certainly anyone who is offering it as a commercial service. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted March 24, 2020 Author Share Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) A little advice on the next step please. Here is a screenshot of the basic shape in Fusion 360 as a solid. It's 13'6" diameter, to be laser cut, and it still needs slices taken out for the four rails, two tracks which go at right angles to each other. The outer rim is separate from the main body, and the gap is shown here, as is a locating hole at the centre. Q1. Is it ready at this stage to export to Inkscape as a .dxf file? And what do I need to show or delete - sketch lines etc? What do I do with the gap and the hole Q.2 Will Inkscape recognise the different layers and cut lines? Q3 When it's ready, is it best to lay it out as a multiple image on a sheet 300x150 or whatever, for example, or speak to the laser cutting company first? Edited April 16, 2023 by woodbine restored lost images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted March 26, 2020 Author Share Posted March 26, 2020 (edited) Well, slight (!) change of plan. I decided that the best route to go down for this is 3D print. No locos are allowed over a wagon turntable, so I can print the whole thing in one go instead of working around metal rails. So given that my local maker-space is shut, and Shapeways is expensive for postage etc, I have been looking on https://www.treatstock.co.uk/ for UK printers who can do small runs (2 off!). There seem to be a few about, but are there any RMwebbers on there who I should favour? Here's the version ready to go (in EM). Edited April 16, 2023 by woodbine restored lost images Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flubrush Posted March 27, 2020 Share Posted March 27, 2020 (edited) On 22/03/2020 at 20:16, woodbine said: Thanks both. So it looks like I can use Fusion 360 to draw the basic precision work then = for 3D - export as .STL to Ultimaker Cura (or similar 3D rendering software which matches the printer available), (done that), or for etching - export a selected plane as a .DXF to Inkscape for further processing (ie. colouring in shapes for full etch, half etch, solid metal) and for laser cutting - export a selected plane as a .DXF to Inkscape for further processing (i.e. cut lines and engrave areas). If so then as a basis that would mean I only need to master Inkscape as an extra, as I already know Fusion. Brilliant! I know that Doublecad was good at 2D technical drawing too, as I managed to make an array of little circles spaced equally along a curved line which I failed to do in either Fusion or Inkscape (so far, unless somebody knows different), and it too will export .dxf files, so I may resort to that if necessary. I appreciate that there are paid for programs that may be better for those who can justify the expense, but for an amateur I think it should be enough? I will be back with more questions later, no doubt My own preference would be to do the etch artwork on a good 2D programme. It usually has much better copying/pasting/array placing/grouping/etc., than Fusion 360. I find it extremely frustrating trying to do a 2D drawing in F360 when I could knock it out in a fraction of the time in AutoCAD LT or one of its clones. You might want to look at NanoCAD for a free 2D program, It is a close clone of AutoCAD LT and DraftSite. Bottom of this web page https://nanocad.com/products/ I've been using it since Draftsite stopped being offered as a free version and it worls well. I'm actually thinking of getting one of their paid for copies for some of the additional benefits. Jim Edited March 27, 2020 by flubrush 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted March 29, 2020 Share Posted March 29, 2020 On 27/03/2020 at 03:06, flubrush said: My own preference would be to do the etch artwork on a good 2D programme. It usually has much better copying/pasting/array placing/grouping/etc., than Fusion 360. I find it extremely frustrating trying to do a 2D drawing in F360 when I could knock it out in a fraction of the time in AutoCAD LT or one of its clones. You might want to look at NanoCAD for a free 2D program, It is a close clone of AutoCAD LT and DraftSite. Bottom of this web page https://nanocad.com/products/ I've been using it since Draftsite stopped being offered as a free version and it worls well. I'm actually thinking of getting one of their paid for copies for some of the additional benefits. Jim I think you are right Jim. I think I've tried all the free software and I've yet to find one that comes close to TurboCAD. It's not expensive and it handles both 2D and 3D. It's fairly simple to convert a 2D model into a 3D model. The snag is the learning curve is a bit steep and that tends to put people off. Cheers, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 On 26/03/2020 at 20:54, woodbine said: Well, slight (!) change of plan. I decided that the best route to go down for this is 3D print. No locos are allowed over a wagon turntable, so I can print the whole thing in one go instead of working around metal rails. So given that my local maker-space is shut, and Shapeways is expensive for postage etc, I have been looking on https://www.treatstock.co.uk/ for UK printers who can do small runs (2 off!). There seem to be a few about, but are there any RMwebbers on there who I should favour? Here's the version ready to go (in EM). For that sort of flat thing, I think your best result would likely be Shapeways. Print a few, sell them off and recoup postage cost maybe. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 Not sure there is a satisfactory answer to this. Any software capable of producing useful designs for 2D or 3D printing is going to be complex and will take a lot of time and effort to learn. I use CorelCAD, which is also expensive to buy. I tried the “free” software but never got very far with it - all too often I had to make a purchase before I could do much. If your use will only be occasional it would probably be more cost-effective to pay somebody to convert your design into a CAD file. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted April 7, 2020 Author Share Posted April 7, 2020 Thanks for the further replies. I failed to get any response from Treatstock, so I have opted to send this and another project to Shapeways, spreading the shipping cost over three items so it's not so bad. Still, it works out a lot steeper than nipping down to the local library printer and doing it there. Regarding the software, which was the original question. I enjoy and don't resent learning something new. Mostly. I have been happy with using Fusion 360 for the Laser cutting as far as it got, despite opting for 3D Printing, and for my water tank. I'm currently also using it to draw the basis for some brass etched signal box windows. As I say, I'm happy using it (in spite of occasional head-scratching moments that turn into hours). I've yet to attempt to turn a product out with colour fill for etching, or indeed for Laser cutting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted April 20, 2020 Author Share Posted April 20, 2020 (edited) The prints came back from Shapeways on Thursday , sooner than I expected. Very pleased with them, but they weren't cheap. The two turntables and the water tank ironwork, which I printed as four pieces and Araldited together and to a styrene bottom, came to about £40. Undercoated with Halfords. Working on the layout for a bit before I continue with the artwork for etched signal box windows. Edited April 16, 2023 by woodbine restored lost images 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 Nothing is cheap from Shapeways, but compared to other vendors with the same machines and material they do tend to do better. What material was that in may I ask? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Royal Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 On 22/03/2020 at 17:49, Quarryscapes said: Fusion is no good for etched parts since you can't fill the areas you're etching with a colour. It should work for simple laser cutting as long as the people doing it could accept DXF and you just need plain shapes cutting, no engraving. That said you can use your fusion sketches as a basis for the 2d etch files, export as DXF and open in something else and manipulate. I use this method in conjunction with TurboCAD to create etch artwork. You are correct Fusion 360 cannot fill areas with colour for 2D environment. On 22/03/2020 at 17:49, Quarryscapes said: Fusion is no good for etched parts since you can't fill the areas you're etching with a colour. I honestly beg to differ on this opinion and as a reponse to this comment i offer you this as proof Which went on to be assembled to this So Fusion 30 can be used to produce artwork for etching companies, Its been a long time since i use 2D/3D Turbocad, switching in preference to Fusion. I would be interested to know if Turbocad offers the facility to animate joints to calculate the location of other components wihin the file ? The use of animate joints was used within Fusion 360 to calculate the position of the microswitches (pictured) and the lever lock mechanism (bottom frame cutout) to ensure that the components would not only fit but be in the correct position. On 07/04/2020 at 22:40, woodbine said: Thanks for the further replies. I failed to get any response from Treatstock, so I have opted to send this and another project to Shapeways, spreading the shipping cost over three items so it's not so bad. Still, it works out a lot steeper than nipping down to the local library printer and doing it there. Regarding the software, which was the original question. I enjoy and don't resent learning something new. Mostly. I have been happy with using Fusion 360 for the Laser cutting as far as it got, despite opting for 3D Printing, and for my water tank. I'm currently also using it to draw the basis for some brass etched signal box windows. As I say, I'm happy using it (in spite of occasional head-scratching moments that turn into hours). I've yet to attempt to turn a product out with colour fill for etching, or indeed for Laser cutting. There is always a way to use one piece of software to communicate with another, you ust need to take the time to figure out. I happy to lend a hand should you need it. May i ask , what scale to do model in ? Mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 24 minutes ago, Ark Royal said: You are correct Fusion 360 cannot fill areas with colour for 2D environment. I honestly beg to differ on this opinion and as a reponse to this comment i offer you this as proof Which went on to be assembled to this So Fusion 30 can be used to produce artwork for etching companies, Its been a long time since i use 2D/3D Turbocad, switching in preference to Fusion. I would be interested to know if Turbocad offers the facility to animate joints to calculate the location of other components wihin the file ? The use of animate joints was used within Fusion 360 to calculate the position of the microswitches (pictured) and the lever lock mechanism (bottom frame cutout) to ensure that the components would not only fit but be in the correct position. There is always a way to use one piece of software to communicate with another, you ust need to take the time to figure out. I happy to lend a hand should you need it. May i ask , what scale to do model in ? Mark Go on then, how did you get from Fusion sketch outlines to fully hatched & layered etch artwork? Always happy to learn a new technique... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Ark Royal said: I would be interested to know if Turbocad offers the facility to animate joints to calculate the location of other components wihin the file ? The use of animate joints was used within Fusion 360 to calculate the position of the microswitches (pictured) and the lever lock mechanism (bottom frame cutout) to ensure that the components would not only fit but be in the correct position. You can't animate two parts simultaneously in Turbocad but you can rotate any object around any point both in 2D and 3D. Edited April 20, 2020 by AndyID Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ark Royal Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Quarryscapes said: Go on then, how did you get from Fusion sketch outlines to fully hatched & layered etch artwork? Always happy to learn a new technique... Hi Quarryscape. 1. Completed Model in entirity in Fusion 360, 2. Selected Part to be Etched and created sketch on the plane the item is to be etched in (face). If parts are folded (Sheet metal work function of 360) then they were unfolded before sketch created. 3. Project the parts including the bend parts into the sketch. Create a rule oblong , say something like 20mm with graduations to scale the export from. 4. Export Sketch as dxf file. 5. Import dxf file into chosen artwork package. 6. Scale within artwork package with known dimension created in step 3. Fusion dxf creates numerous shapes that can then be put into appropriate layers in artwork drawing package before combining these shapes into the solid artwork for etching which can then be given a fill colour. Unfortunately fusion 360 sheet metal work (to date) does not give a function for bend allowance of 1/2 etched items, its been requested for numerous time to the development team. It does allow material thickness and calculates bend allowance from this. As you have assembled the flat shape within you artwork page into shapes it is now a case of calculating the bend allowance and and adusting the "bend" part of the artwork to the correct determined width. I use this to calculate the bend allowance Hollywood Foundary Etching Principles It is a bit of a workaround but not that time consuming. 7 hours ago, AndyID said: You can't animate two parts simultaneously in Turbocad but you can rotate any object around any point both in 2D and 3D. Thankyou AndyID for your response. I used to use Turbocad to create etched artwork but that was 10 years or more ago and it has clearly not been updated since then as revolving parts around one axis was a function then. Fusion 360 is updated nearly every month with some extra functionality, some of which you'll never use, others you will. My reason for asking this question is if you designed a lever to revolve around an axis from say -45 to +45 degreess. and during that rotation at say +25 and - 15 degrees it contacted a part that was capable of sliding along the same plane how easy would it be to calculate the distance and position that the item slid along and incorporate that into the design within Turbocad ? In Fusion 360 you create the joints, mark the start of the slide part in 1 sketch by projecting its shape into the sketch, stop the sketch. Move the rotational part and the slide action happoens automatically at the given angles . Capture the position of the part at the end of the movement. Start a second sketch and mark the position of the slide part at the end of its travel by projecting the item into the sketch. Project the item in the first sketch into the 2nd sketch and your done. You have the distance and travel direction calculated for you in 3 simple steps. Compound the problem by having the slide function also rotate about another axis and i struggle to see how turbocad could calculate that distance and angle yet using the same principle above it can be achieved in Fusion and the cutout for the motion also incorportated into the artwork. The learning curve to Fusion 360 is quite steep but once the basics (condtraints) in Fusion 360 are mastered the rest is fairly straight forward its just a different environment and set of rules. I personally like the ability to define parameters and then use those parameters to adjust the design. This is particularly helpful in 3D prinitng for material thickness but also in designs for scaling. With just one parameter change i can alter my designs to any chosen model scale of the model and it will update everything with that one parameter change. Learning these systems takes time and effort and it is wholly dependant on what you are doing with the 3d package. I am sure that Turbocad is just fine for most applications and it is down to personal preference at the end of the day Mark Edited April 21, 2020 by Ark Royal Spelling Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 9 minutes ago, Ark Royal said: Learning these systems takes time and effort and it is wholly dependant on what you are doing with the 3d package. I am sure that Turbocad is just fine for most applications and it is down to personal preference at the end of the day Mark Hi Mark, I think I'm too old to learn Fusion. I've been using Turbocad for 25 years and it's probably too deeply ingrained now At the moment I'm using it to produce OO turnouts on my 3D (filament) printer. Cheers, Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
woodbine Posted April 21, 2020 Author Share Posted April 21, 2020 12 hours ago, Quarryscapes said: Nothing is cheap from Shapeways, but compared to other vendors with the same machines and material they do tend to do better. What material was that in may I ask? The turntables are "Smooth Fine detail Plastic", as the printing ridges though visible are not evident and don't detract from the finish. I opted for "Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic" for the tank, as the flat areas are more prominent. The ridges are there but you have to get within a few inches to see them. Also I wasn't sure whether the cheaper "Smooth" would cope with the very fine rivet detail. I should have put some similar rivets somewhere on the turntable as a comparison shouldn't I? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Ark Royal said: Hi Quarryscape. 1. Completed Model in entirity in Fusion 360, 2. Selected Part to be Etched and created sketch on the plane the item is to be etched in (face). If parts are folded (Sheet metal work function of 360) then they were unfolded before sketch created. 3. Project the parts including the bend parts into the sketch. Create a rule oblong , say something like 20mm with graduations to scale the export from. 4. Export Sketch as dxf file. 5. Import dxf file into chosen artwork package. 6. Scale within artwork package with known dimension created in step 3. Fusion dxf creates numerous shapes that can then be put into appropriate layers in artwork drawing package before combining these shapes into the solid artwork for etching which can then be given a fill colour. Unfortunately fusion 360 sheet metal work (to date) does not give a function for bend allowance of 1/2 etched items, its been requested for numerous time to the development team. It does allow material thickness and calculates bend allowance from this. As you have assembled the flat shape within you artwork page into shapes it is now a case of calculating the bend allowance and and adusting the "bend" part of the artwork to the correct determined width. I use this to calculate the bend allowance Hollywood Foundary Etching Principles It is a bit of a workaround but not that time consuming. So you can't do it in Fusion, as I said, right from the start. You do it almost the same way I do, the difference is I use the flat pattern and export that as a DXF rather than faffing about projecting to sketches, having already set the sheet metal rules up to create the bend allowance etc. Once DXF is imported into Turbo CAD all I have to do is change it to Metric, change line styles and then hatch everything and layer it, oh and tag it into a sheet. although you could already have done that in Fusion of you wanted to. 3 hours ago, AndyID said: Hi Mark, I think I'm too old to learn Fusion. I've been using Turbocad for 25 years and it's probably too deeply ingrained now At the moment I'm using it to produce OO turnouts on my 3D (filament) printer. Cheers, Andy Fusion is MUTCH easier for 3D work than TurboCAD, however it is utterly pants for 2D. It always will be too, otherwise there would be no incentive to buy Inventor would there? Fusion is what it is, Software mostly for hobbyists dabbling in 3D printing and CNC or prototyping for big companies. It is not a fully formed engineering drawing solution. I use both at work and home in combination, since Fusion can't do proper drawings I still have to resort to TurboCAD if I want Engineering drawings to actual useful standards with useful dimensions etc. We really should be using Inventor or Solidworks, but the boss won't pay, so I have to do it the hard way.... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Quarryscapes Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 38 minutes ago, woodbine said: The turntables are "Smooth Fine detail Plastic", as the printing ridges though visible are not evident and don't detract from the finish. I opted for "Smoothest Fine Detail Plastic" for the tank, as the flat areas are more prominent. The ridges are there but you have to get within a few inches to see them. Also I wasn't sure whether the cheaper "Smooth" would cope with the very fine rivet detail. I should have put some similar rivets somewhere on the turntable as a comparison shouldn't I? Ignore what Shapeways say - Smoothest is likely to give you a worse finish! It actually makes more stepping lines, and makes them sharper on flat surfaces. It's very counter intuitive! The rivet detail should be fine in smooth, though beware if it's on a vertical surface, you will have a rough patch underneath every one from the support structure. If you can, it's always best to split things like that into flat sheets, so the rivet detailed side would face up (needing no support under the rivets for smooth finish on the flat) and the sides and back plain. Here is an example of what I mean: Wherever there is anything sticking out, below it you get that awful finish. Whereas if you split it so all the detail sides are oriented upwards, then there is no roughness around your rivets: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold simonmcp Posted April 21, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 21, 2020 6 hours ago, AndyID said: Hi Mark, I think I'm too old to learn Fusion. I've been using Turbocad for 25 years and it's probably too deeply ingrained now At the moment I'm using it to produce OO turnouts on my 3D (filament) printer. Cheers, Andy Sorry to highjack the thread but can we see some pictures t your turnouts please. Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyID Posted April 21, 2020 Share Posted April 21, 2020 3 hours ago, simonmcp said: Sorry to highjack the thread but can we see some pictures t your turnouts please. Simon Some pics here Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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