Soldering iron

[doilum]

59 minutes ago, SteveyDee68 said:

I tried soldering for the first time last night, with a Lidl sourced variable temperature (electronic) soldering station... a decent price, and appears to be decent piece of kit.

 

I practiced on a spare bit of track.  Two melted sleepers  rude words ensued.

 

Then - success!  Wire to track, solid bond.  Even yanked on it like they do in the Youtube tutorials!   Using coreless  solder, no flux.

 

After that, no success at all.  Multi strand "modellers" wire - couldn't tin it!  Eventually managed to tin it.  Attach to rail as before?  No chance.  Cleaned the joint, tried flux, different solder, no joy.  Welcome to Frustration City, population - one.

 

Gave up after learning a valuable although patently obvious lesson...

 

Soldering iron tips are ing hot!

 

Ouch.

 

Or words to that effect.

 

Later today I will try again.  I don't know if I will fare any better.  It seems so simple in theory...

 

STAY SAFE - USE Hornby POWER CLIPS!

Did you clean the tip again?

This needs doing before each individual task especially with modern solder. There are fancy foam pads but being honest I use a bit of wet kitchen towel.

Next tip is to get a fibreglass pencil and clean the rail immediately before soldering. In the world of solder cleanliness IS godliness.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Sorry cannot help you there. I inherited my all soldering irons from my father. They are now about 50 years old and still going strong. They do not build them like that anymore...…..

[Happy Hippo]

24 minutes ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Sorry cannot help you there. I inherited my all soldering irons from my father. They are now about 50 years old and still going strong. They do not build them like that anymore...…..

I know the type, I love them!

 

Solid copper bit:  Something you can clean with a file and sandpaper!!

 

 

[Damo666]

18 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I know the type, I love them!

 

Solid copper bit:  Something you can clean with a file and sandpaper!!

 

That's the type I got from my uncle 45 years ago. Still use it. Slow to get up to temperature though.

 

I've often wondered if I'd be better off with one of these new Antex or other brands of soldering iron.

[hayfield]

Its strange many find it so hard,

 

All you need are clean parts and tip on the iron, decent solder and flux and a hot iron.  The other factor may be having an iron with enough wattage to do the job,

 

Sometimes changing the tip for a larger one may be the issue. Or not using a poor quality item.

[spamcan61]

I always use flux, generally by using a multicore solder (60/40 or LMP) with rosin flux included. Doing otherwise is making life unduly difficult.

[cypherman]

48 minutes ago, Happy Hippo said:

I know the type, I love them!

 

Solid copper bit:  Something you can clean with a file and sandpaper!!

 

 

That's the ones. I was left 3 different sizes and they all still work. My father was a Marconi radio operator so he had all the best kit available. Hence the reason why it still all works 

Happy Hippo seeing your name reminded me of this song. so here it is for you.

 

[doilum]

32 minutes ago, Damo666 said:

 

That's the type I got from my uncle 45 years ago. Still use it. Slow to get up to temperature though.

 

I've often wondered if I'd be better off with one of these new Antex or other brands of soldering iron.

Agreed. The new cheap and cheerful irons seem to need a lot more constant cleaning. That said, once warm, a quick wipe produces a perfect tip.

[Torper]

12 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

After that, no success at all.  Multi strand "modellers" wire - couldn't tin it!  Eventually managed to tin it.  Attach to rail as before?  No chance.  Cleaned the joint, tried flux, different solder, no joy.  Welcome to Frustration City, population - one.

 

What kind of solder are you using?  If it's the eco lead free stuff I'm not surpised you're having problems.  What temperature have you got your iron set to?  What kind of flux are you using?  It's difficult to tell what your problem is because you do basically seem to be doing everything right.

 

DT

[SteveyDee68]

41 minutes ago, Torper said:

 

What kind of solder are you using?  If it's the eco lead free stuff I'm not surpised you're having problems.  What temperature have you got your iron set to?  What kind of flux are you using?  It's difficult to tell what your problem is because you do basically seem to be doing everything right.

 

DT

 

Okay, answering as best I can...

 

Solder - as purchased from the local model shop, lead free, resin core (for flux)

 

Iron has three automatic settings, 200, 300 and 400 degrees centigrade.  As the YouTube clips were saying that their irons heated up to about 420 degrees, I set mine at 400 then pressed the + button twice to raise it to 420...

 

I think the flux is in the centre of the solder?

 

Having said that, the join that worked was with some old stuff I found in my dad's electric gubbings box, and I have absolutely no idea what that is!

 

Now, Doilum may be onto something, as I don't think I cleaned the tip enough.  I also "loaded" it with solder, which kept running off the tip and forming little spherical balls on my desk surface... 

 

In other words, I don't think I was having much success tinning the iron tip.

 

 Do have a fibreglass pencil, so I will try cleaning the rail with that instead of emery paper.

 

My biggest problem (other than managing to touch my finger with the hot iron) was not being able to tin the end of the wire, despite trimming it back fresh.  It is also "modelling" multi strand wire.

 

The join I did get to work was with a single core wire...

 

"Curiouser and curiouser," said Alice!

 

Thanks for the help and suggestions in what is really a thread about soldering irons!

 

Steve S

 

STAY SAFE - KEEP FINGERS AWAY FROM HOT SOLDERING IRONS - DON'T CAUSE EXTRA WORK FOR THE NHS

[polybear]

Occasionally I also come across some multistrand wire that refuses to tin, no matter what.....

Thinking about it, it's often when trying to repair some far eastern thingummy that is playing up.  I'd suggest trying the same thing with a different piece of multistrand wire, from a different source (i.e. not the same stuff).

As for lead free, I'd suggest 60/40 resin core every time.  Certain industries (such as defence) still use it (allowed to, with exemption) simply because the lead free stuff isn't as good.

 

[Barclay]

I too always use flux and for anything but electrical would always use a non-cored low melt solder such as 145 or 179.

 

From what you say it's possible the tip does need cleaning. I have a Maplins temperature controlled iron which is great. I set it to 400 and it does a terrific job, but the tip need constant cleaning. The solder should coat the tip instantly - it should be gleaming, bright metal. if the solder is almost falling off it in spheres it suggests a dirty bit. I now use a tub of Carr's bit cleaner - you just dip the dirty bit into it whilst hot and it comes out gleaming and nicely tinned like it should. Funnily enough my old SRB type 1 hardly ever needed cleaning, but with this one I can't do without it. 

[Torper]

8 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

Solder - as purchased from the local model shop, lead free, resin core (for flux).......I think the flux is in the centre of the solder?

 

I've never used lead free solder, but I understand it to be much more demanding than the traditional tin/lead alloy and i reckon that may be your main problem.  Try to get some of the tin/lead stuff.  Also, I've never found the flux in cored solder sufficient - again, get some suitable flux and use that in addition to the solder wire.  I use Carr's Green or Yellow label, which is a liquid and using a small paint brush I apply it to any joint, and to multi strand wire, before applying the solder.  Other fluxes are of course available and everyone has his own favourite.

 

DT

[tomparryharry]

For some of us, the term 'observance' is a must. It's written into most contracts where a person is using heat to bond one item to another. I'd hate to see someones pride & joy go up in flames for a lack of knowing what heat can do in a confined space. 

 

Sometimes, you will need to do a bit of sub-assembly work, and once completed, then affix it to your intended job. I'm not taking about a bench job, but working upside down underneath a layout. Solder down the sleeves is not recommended; it tends to distract you...... A heat mat is a worthwhile addition to the toolbox, especially if you are using those rather natty gas torches. I usually used to keep about 3-4 heat mats in the box, but this was used in an industrial workplace. 

 

A bit of pre-planning will save fingers...  

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, Torper said:

 

 I use Carr's Green or Yellow label, which is a liquid and using a small paint brush I apply it to any joint, and to multi strand wire, before applying the solder.  Other fluxes are of course available and everyone has his own favourite.

 

DT

I wouldn't let an acid based flux anywhere near an electrical joint, I've seen the results of acid flux on a D type connector over a number of years and they weren't pretty.  Fine for etched kit construction where the whole shooting match can be dunked in a cleaning / neutralising solution afterwards. 

 

In terms of lead free solder then it's just making life more difficult for no good reason in the context of toy trains.

[doilum]

2 minutes ago, spamcan61 said:

I wouldn't let an acid based flux anywhere near an electrical joint, I've seen the results of acid flux on a D type connector over a number of years and they weren't pretty.  Fine for etched kit construction where the whole shooting match can be dunked in a cleaning / neutralising solution afterwards. 

 

In terms of lead free solder then it's just making life more difficult for no good reason in the context of toy trains.

That was my received information too, but I find a small wipe with a brush dipped in plumber's flux saves much frustration. I have noticed that some of my esteemed clubmates have also adopted the same method in their old age.

[hayfield]

Despite what everyone else says, I dislike rosin cored solder, certainly for railway modelling.

 

The major issue I think is a dirty tip. From what I understand from others a tip from the outset should be tinned, then kept clean, also you should not use abrasives on the tip, using abrasives will greatly reduce the tips life. a dirty tip will greatly reduce its temperature. Once I learnt this issue with new tips  I tinned them and kept them clean with a wet sponge. My new station came with a tip cleaner, a form of gel in a tin with what looks like a pan scourer on top. works exceptionally well. I also use a liquid flux. Carrs orange for most work (as its organic) however with steel I use a 12% acid solution, Carrs also sell a neutralising rinse.

 

You may have to bite the bullet and clean the tip with abrasives every now and then, buy some decent flux and solder. Quality pays every time 

[doilum]

14 minutes ago, hayfield said:

Despite what everyone else says, I dislike rosin cored solder, certainly for railway modelling.

 

The major issue I think is a dirty tip. From what I understand from others a tip from the outset should be tinned, then kept clean, also you should not use abrasives on the tip, using abrasives will greatly reduce the tips life. a dirty tip will greatly reduce its temperature. Once I learnt this issue with new tips  I tinned them and kept them clean with a wet sponge. My new station came with a tip cleaner, a form of gel in a tin with what looks like a pan scourer on top. works exceptionally well. I also use a liquid flux. Carrs orange for most work (as its organic) however with steel I use a 12% acid solution, Carrs also sell a neutralising rinse.

 

You may have to bite the bullet and clean the tip with abrasives every now and then, buy some decent flux and solder. Quality pays every time 

Odd thing about the tip on my very cheap Chinese iron, it doesn't need tinning as such. Just a wipe and then apply solder to the job. Very different to the old copper tips which needed fettelling with a file and then carefully retinning.

[spamcan61]

13 minutes ago, hayfield said:

 

The major issue I think is a dirty tip. From what I understand from others a tip from the outset should be tinned, then kept clean, also you should not use abrasives on the tip, using abrasives will greatly reduce the tips life. a dirty tip will greatly reduce its temperature.

Agreed. When I was taught to solder properly (in other words every joint  visually inspected to defense / aerospace standards) it was made clear that the tip should never be loaded with solder; both of the parts to be joined should be tinned then brought together, and the tip just applies heat.  OK I don't follow this 100% in a hobby context, and it's 30+ years since I had to solder to those standards, but it's still a reasonable starting point IMHO.

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, doilum said:

That was my received information too, but I find a small wipe with a brush dipped in plumber's flux saves much frustration. I have noticed that some of my esteemed clubmates have also adopted the same method in their old age.

I hope they make sure every single trace of flux is removed from the joint, or the acidic residue  will eat into the joint over the years.

[hayfield]

1 hour ago, spamcan61 said:

I hope they make sure every single trace of flux is removed from the joint, or the acidic residue  will eat into the joint over the years.

 

 

Good advice with anything steel, it seems all you have to do is look at it and it starts to rust. I have brass and nickel silver items I soldered years ago still perfectly fine. Not saying do it but it depends on what material you are using, plus I guess the conditions they are kept in

[boxbrownie]

On 26/03/2020 at 10:46, Torper said:

From time to time Aldi, and possibly Lidl, include a gas powered iron in their weekly specials.  I bought a Workzone gas-powered mini soldering torch set from Aldi and have been very pleased with it although it is fair to say that I don't use it all that often and when I do it's usually for the mini-blowtorch facility rather than the soldering iron, though a number of tips come with the unit.  It wasn't expensive and unlike most such devices in its price range came with a 3-year guarantee.

 

DT

My old RS branded gas soldering iron has a “hot air” nozzle with it, being a very small nozzle it’s great for tiny heat shrink tubing, I have two proper heat guns but they are TBH far too big for precision heating, gas gun heat nozzle is really useful.

[boxbrownie]

22 hours ago, spamcan61 said:

I always use flux, generally by using a multicore solder (60/40 or LMP) with rosin flux included. Doing otherwise is making life unduly difficult.

I’ve never used anything but a very high quality multi core solder (I’ve had a big roll of it for over 35 years) and never TMK had a dry joint or failed to solder (to the correct material).......practice makes perfect.

[JeffP]

I was taught to solder sixty plus years ago, using a huge 100W iron with a solid copper tip, and rosin fluxed solder.

 

My dad gave me the following pointers:

1. Always clean the joint before soldering.

2. Don't take solder to the joint on the iron.

3. Apply enough solder to the iron to "wet" it, apply to the joint and THEN bring in the solder as the joint is hot enough to let it flow.

 

I've since used a short cut for electrical soldering where two wires are to be joined: twist the wires together, wrap about 15mm of solder round the joint and then heat it from underneath with the iron.

[hayfield]

9 minutes ago, boxbrownie said:

I’ve never used anything but ai core solder (I’ve had a big roll of it for over 35 years) and never TMK had a dry joint or failed to solder (to the correct material).......practice makes perfect.

 

The important thing you have said is " very high quality"