LNER 6 wheeled tank traps

[Tony Cane]

3 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Why didn't they just remove all the sides & ends, and create two flat wagons with bolsters?

Some were later converted to twin case wagons with the all sides and ends removed.

Presumably if the intended load did not require the extra work this saved manpower for use elsewhere.

[Invicta]

Essery also states that 500 were converted back to mineral wagons in 1945- if they were intended as a temporary expedient, then making the conversion as minimal as possible makes sense.

 

The book suggests that 346 of them became twin case wagons, as you mentioned,  from 1942, and a further 154 pairs were split up and converted to flat case wagons around the same time.

[Fat Controller]

38 minutes ago, rodent279 said:

Why didn't they just remove all the sides & ends, and create two flat wagons with bolsters?

There are some photos of wagons where this seems to have been done. One, in the book I referred to earlier, has a mid 50s (exact date not given) photo of a pair of wagons, with no sides (though there is a curb-rail ), and just a single plank above the headstock at least at the outer end.

[tomparryharry]

I'm sorry to backtrack, but the block wagon was very specifically designed to fall apart. The two solebar support blocks were required to be pulled away by the locomotive placing them, leaving (just) enough integrity to stay in one piece. Anything hitting the wagon would result in the wedged end dropping down, and the locomotive would be driven up, into the roof of the tunnel. A bit messy for driver & fireman.... 

[cctransuk]

On 28/03/2020 at 11:44, Tony Cane said:

 

 

The top two photos are of an LNER Diagram 164 24T twin, converted from two 12T Diagram 63 mineral opens; the third photo is of an LNER Diagram 163 26T twin, also converted from two 13T Diagram 63 mineral opens.

 

Why it was deemed necessary to have two diagrams when the base wagons were all from the same diagram eludes me! Diagram 63 wagons were supposedly upgraded from 12T to 13T capacity as a wartime expedient.

 

Regards,

John Isherwood.

Edited March 30, 2020 by cctransuk

[62613]

On 28/03/2020 at 01:13, The Johnster said:

Cunningham was the right man in the right place at the right time in the Med; his responses to the Crete invasion and protection of Malta convoys in both directions were, IMHO, brilliantly conceived and executed, though the losses were severe.  My father was 3rd Officer of the Melbourne Star, a Blue Star line merchantman that was one of the survivors of the 'Operation Pedastal' convoy to relieve Malta; 5 merchantmen including the tanker Ohio which was basically a mostly submerged hulk on arrival at Valletta, sinking as it's cargo was pumped off, and the naval escort lost the aircraft carrier Eagle and the cruiser Manchester to Italian submarines.

 

But even the aggressive Cunningham had planned the withdrawal of the battleships Nelson and Rodney along with the other capital units before they could come in range of Italian aircraft from Sardinia; the risk was simply too great despite the importance of this convoy (it was vital that Malta be relieved as it was besieged and on the point of capitulation for lack of supplies and fuel, and had Malta fallen Rommel's forces in North Africa would have had an uninterrupted and unchallenged supply route; the Suez Canal would have probably been lost.  Moreover the Med would have been effectively closed to British shipping, which would have seriously compromised the supply routes from India, the Far East, and the Antipodes; a loss we could ill afford).  

 

Pedastal took place shortly after the PQ 17 disaster, in which German disinformation successfully led the Admiralty to believe that the convoy was about to be attacked by the Tirpitz, resulting in the withdrawal to Scapa of the capital units protecting it.  It does seem that British policy was to hold capital ships back from actions in which they might be lost, probably exacerbated by the loss of Hood.  The Germans seemed to have behaved similarly after they lost Bismark, but they had the U boat campaign to take up the slack in the Atlantic.  The Italians seemed reluctant to leave harbour at all as long as there were British warships in the Med; the real naval aggression in WW2 was the no-holds-barred full on action in the Pacific between the Americans and Japanese.

Small world, in a roundabout way! Dad's cousin's fiance was 3/O on the Ohio, so I know a fair bit about that particular convoy. again, by early 1941, the Germans had begun to gain experience in attacking ships (which they didn't have earlier in the war; they were essentially long-range artillery for the army), so it became a lot more difficult. In reality, of course, Malta should have been indefensible, given its position; and, getting back to Pedestal, the convoy should have been annihilated really.

 

[The Johnster]

Agreed, and the Axis seemed to give up on Malta afterwards, so not only were vital supplies delivered, but apparently the idea was seeded in the German and Italian high commands that indefensible Malta was in fact impregnable.  They'd poured huge resources into destroying Pedestal, and come close to success, and had the Vichy French joined in from North Africa might well have prevented any ship getting through.  It must have been very disheartening for them; good!  Churchill had ordered that every possible effort be made to get Ohio through, and Penn and Ledbury went beyond the normal call in achieving this, as did her own crew.  The ship was of course singled out for the heaviest possible attacks but still got her cargo through.  The enemy didn't give up after Pedestal of course, but the intensity of the attacks diminished.  

 

This was a bad mistake from their point of view; it can be argued that they lost North Africa, and consequently the Suez Canal and access to the Mesopotamian oil fields, because they failed to secure their supply route by taking Malta.  After all, they'd taken Crete.  No Pedestal, or Pedestal annihilated, no El Alamein, no Sicily landings, no Anzio, no Monte Cassino, no liberation of Italy or Austria, possibly no ultimate victory.

 

British forces operating out of Malta, particularly aircraft and submarines, wreaked havoc on Rommel's supply convoys, a story not often told but pivotal to that part of the conflict.  It must have been to the Axis as devastating as the North Cape route was to us, but in a more pleasant climate.  There were several turning points that put them on the back foot; Stalingrad, El Alamein, the entry of the Americans (and Hitler declaring war on them!).  I would include Pedestal as a major factor in the victory at El Alamein, and am very proud of my father's part in it.  

 

He was bridge officer when Wainamara blew up, and Melboune Star was next in line astern of her, also under attack.  His decision to hold course through the flames while ringing on for 'full ahead' was, he later told me, motivated by self preservation as he didn't want the ship to be slewing sideways through them slowly, which it would have had he ordered a course alteration.  He claimed only once throughout the entire war to have ever been scared starting in 1939 and ending in 1945.  I think I'd have been the same!  He was mentioned in Admiral's Cunningham's notes 'Third Officer Richards' decision to ring for full ahead and hold course showed great presence of mind, and almost certainly saved his ship'.  The RN gun crew on the stern Oerlikon took one look at what was coming and went over the side, and I for one don't blame them; Penn picked them up in the aftermath.

 

But you must be even prouder of your connection with Ohio, the real star of the show.  She sank at her mooring as the oil was pumped out of her at Valletta, and her bridge island remained above water to be used as an accommodation block for the rest of the war, so in her way she continued to play a part. Melbourne Star was lost to a U boat in the Atlantic, but father had been transferred off her by then, or I might not be here, not that that would have been the greatest possible loss...

Edited March 30, 2020 by The Johnster

[corneliuslundie]

Interesting to read this as my father spent much of the war on Malta as a nursing orderly, though he never said a great deal about things. 

And my grandfather was a Major in the Home Guard in Exeter. A he was an engineer one of his activities was planting explosives under strategic road bridges, fortunately never needed in anger.

Jonathan

 

[Bucoops]

1 hour ago, corneliuslundie said:

Interesting to read this as my father spent much of the war on Malta as a nursing orderly, though he never said a great deal about things. 

And my grandfather was a Major in the Home Guard in Exeter. A he was an engineer one of his activities was planting explosives under strategic road bridges, fortunately never needed in anger.

Jonathan

 

 

Hope it was remembered to take them off again

[petethemole]

They probably buried them somewhere nobody now knows about.  I was doing an archaeological watching brief in Southampton when the digger exposed a large cache of ex-Home Guard munitions.  About two thirds were inert practice rounds for mortars and spigot mortars.  The rest were live ones, plus assorted shells of smaller calibres from 37mm up, a mix of inert and live rounds according to the Army bomb squad who took them away.  They only took the live stuff, I believe the rest was weighed in for scrap by the groundworkers.  The site had been a Home Guard district HQ, in a requisitioned Victorian villa.

[petethemole]

They probably buried them somewhere nobody now knows about.  I was doing an archaeological watching brief in Southampton when the digger exposed a large cache of ex-Home Guard munitions.  About two thirds were inert practice rounds for mortars and spigot mortars.  The rest were live ones, plus assorted shells of smaller calibres from 37mm up, a mix of inert and live rounds according to the Army bomb squad who took them away.  They only took the live stuff, I believe the rest was weighed in for scrap by the groundworkers.  The site had been a Home Guard district HQ, in a requisitioned Victorian villa.