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  • RMweb Gold

Yes, I like that; plausible and interesting to operate.  If you number the squares from the bottom left corner so I can give you grid references for the positions I'm talking about, the GW would have had a trap point protecting the exit from the station run around loop, at 1.9 vertical 2.5 horizontal, and another one at the exit to the other end of the same loop, at 1.9 vert., 7.0 hor.  The exchange sidings move about two inches to the left to make room for it and a gate across the entrance to the exchange yard denotes quarry ownership.  No quarry loco or stock can pass this gate, and there will be a specified limit as to how far the main line loco can run on to the quarry's railway.

 

Signalling, for GW, left to right approaching from junction, a splitting bracket 'home' signal at 1.2 vert,, 1.0 hor., main board reading to the platform road and lower board into the loop.  And that's it for main signals in that direction; if you eventually model something that can pass for 440yds to the left of this splitter, there can be a fixed 'distant' signal.  In the other direction right to left, you need a 'starter' signal for the platform road at 1.3 v., 2.5h., and one to control the exit into the section from the loop at 1.7v, 2.8h.  Ground disc shunting signals will control the access to the carriage siding and goods headshunt from the platform road, and those roads and the access to the exchange yard from the loop, and the exits from the carriage siding, goods headshunt, and exchange yard.

 

Purely opinion, but I think the quarry loco shed can be one road, saving a turnout, and that the goods yard could probably benefit from an end loading/cattle dock at the end of the goods shed road, and extending the mileage road behind the station building would leave more room for coal cells.  

 

British general merchandise freight traffic rates prior to 1963 were governed by Parliament.  Railways were granted their authorising Acts of Parliament on condition that they were 'common carriers', obliged to take goods at a set rate per mile.  Thus there was a 'mileage rate', the lowest, with the goods being loaded and unloaded to or from the railway wagon or van by the customer or his agents or employees.  A mileage siding is provided at most goods yards for the customer's vehicle, horse and cart or lorry depending on period, to back up to the wagon or van.  The railway could, and usually did because it could charge premium rates, offer 'to be delivered/called for' services, which meant that the customer delivered or collected to/from the depot, but the merchandise was handled by railway staff, or the railway could use it's own road vehicle to collect or deliver door to door.  Railways were keen to promote specialised wagons or vans that they could charge even more premiums for, such as shock absorbing vehicles, containers, livestock wagons and so on.  Coal for household use was carried at a Government fixed charge to the coal merchants, though they could charge their customers whatever they could get away with.

 

So a typical BLT goods yard looks very much like Mr Pestell's drawing, 2 roads, one for mileage and coal traffic and one for railway handled traffic, a minimum of 18' apart in the loading areas because the turning circle of a horse drawn cart was 18' diameter.  This is seminal to UK steam age layouts.

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6 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

It's not the terminus itself that is the problem. That's OK if perhaps a little bit less interesting than you could do in the space.

 

The real difficulty is the interface between the main line company's railway and the quarry company's line. It needs some workable exchange sidings. If you don't want to make major changes because of the bits that you have already done, it would be better to put the exchange sidings where you have the sheds and the quarry company's loco sheds top left where you have the sidings.

 

Just for fun, while we are all in lockdown, I might spend a couple of hours drawing the arrangement that I wrote about (both for your 16' x 4' space and for a more typical UK space 11'6 x 7'6 (interior dimensions of a 12' x 8' garden shed).

 

 

If that's the case than could possible exchange sidings be placed into the outskirts of the quarry itself, where an engine takes it from there down the tramway to the terminus

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4 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Yes, I like that; plausible and interesting to operate.  If you number the squares from the bottom left corner so I can give you grid references for the positions I'm talking about, the GW would have had a trap point protecting the exit from the station run around loop, at 1.9 vertical 2.5 horizontal, and another one at the exit to the other end of the same loop, at 1.9 vert., 7.0 hor.  The exchange sidings move about two inches to the left to make room for it and a gate across the entrance to the exchange yard denotes quarry ownership.  No quarry loco or stock can pass this gate, and there will be a specified limit as to how far the main line loco can run on to the quarry's railway.

 

Signalling, for GW, left to right approaching from junction, a splitting bracket 'home' signal at 1.2 vert,, 1.0 hor., main board reading to the platform road and lower board into the loop.  And that's it for main signals in that direction; if you eventually model something that can pass for 440yds to the left of this splitter, there can be a fixed 'distant' signal.  In the other direction right to left, you need a 'starter' signal for the platform road at 1.3 v., 2.5h., and one to control the exit into the section from the loop at 1.7v, 2.8h.  Ground disc shunting signals will control the access to the carriage siding and goods headshunt from the platform road, and those roads and the access to the exchange yard from the loop, and the exits from the carriage siding, goods headshunt, and exchange yard.

 

Purely opinion, but I think the quarry loco shed can be one road, saving a turnout, and that the goods yard could probably benefit from an end loading/cattle dock at the end of the goods shed road, and extending the mileage road behind the station building would leave more room for coal cells.  

 

British general merchandise freight traffic rates prior to 1963 were governed by Parliament.  Railways were granted their authorising Acts of Parliament on condition that they were 'common carriers', obliged to take goods at a set rate per mile.  Thus there was a 'mileage rate', the lowest, with the goods being loaded and unloaded to or from the railway wagon or van by the customer or his agents or employees.  A mileage siding is provided at most goods yards for the customer's vehicle, horse and cart or lorry depending on period, to back up to the wagon or van.  The railway could, and usually did because it could charge premium rates, offer 'to be delivered/called for' services, which meant that the customer delivered or collected to/from the depot, but the merchandise was handled by railway staff, or the railway could use it's own road vehicle to collect or deliver door to door.  Railways were keen to promote specialised wagons or vans that they could charge even more premiums for, such as shock absorbing vehicles, containers, livestock wagons and so on.  Coal for household use was carried at a Government fixed charge to the coal merchants, though they could charge their customers whatever they could get away with.

 

So a typical BLT goods yard looks very much like Mr Pestell's drawing, 2 roads, one for mileage and coal traffic and one for railway handled traffic, a minimum of 18' apart in the loading areas because the turning circle of a horse drawn cart was 18' diameter.  This is seminal to UK steam age layouts.

 

Yes, that was a "quick and dirty" version. I did not bother with catch points or put the signals in. I also just used #6 points. The whole shed complex and approach to it should probably be simpler. I think that two roads might be justified, one for the shed itself, one as a repair shop. But that should be two buildings.

 

It has given me ideas for the smaller version although it will be hard to get the terminus into that one quite so well.

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  • RMweb Gold
2 minutes ago, ForeverAutumn said:

If that's the case than could possible exchange sidings be placed into the outskirts of the quarry itself, where an engine takes it from there down the tramway to the terminus

 

Possibly. But then the "tramway" is part of the mainline company's territory. And what do you fill the rest of the board with?

 

4' is a wide baseboard - even when you have access from both sides. Most layouts will look better on narrower boards as that creates an illusion of more length.

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2 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Possibly. But then the "tramway" is part of the mainline company's territory. And what do you fill the rest of the board with?

 

4' is a wide baseboard - even when you have access from both sides. Most layouts will look better on narrower boards as that creates an illusion of more length.

The tramway itself will likely be a  gradient, consisting of a runaway siding, a bridge, and a road crossing all travelling up in an S shape leading to a quarry if I do the quarry and the tramway at all 

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  • RMweb Gold
2 hours ago, ForeverAutumn said:

Yes it is Ffarquhar, but I am trying to make it with LMS techniques,

 

Gotcha, in 'the books' the quarry tramway belongs to the mainline company (the NWR) hence having an enlarged engine and carriage shed to house the tram loco and quarry workers' train. Previously the loco shed had 2 roads.

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20 minutes ago, Corbs said:

 

Gotcha, in 'the books' the quarry tramway belongs to the mainline company (the NWR) hence having an enlarged engine and carriage shed to house the tram loco and quarry workers' train. Previously the loco shed had 2 roads.

Ah, I see. That's where my trouble was I incorrectly thought the quarry owned the tramway, thank you for clearing that up

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  • RMweb Gold
3 minutes ago, ForeverAutumn said:

Good evening, Now one thing i'm inexperienced in,are points, most switches that I have seen around here are manual, in the UK, which switches would usually be controlled via signal box, and which ones are likely to be manuals?

 

This is a bit "broad brush" but, for your purposes, you would not go far wrong to say that any turnout that a passenger train will run over will be controlled from the box, the rest by hand levers. Keep in mind that some will be paired together in the form of crossovers. So there will be some (e.g. exit from goods yard) where a turnout will be controlled by the box because the other end of the crossover is used by passenger trains.

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11 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

This is a bit "broad brush" but, for your purposes, you would not go far wrong to say that any turnout that a passenger train will run over will be controlled from the box, the rest by hand levers. Keep in mind that some will be paired together in the form of crossovers. So there will be some (e.g. exit from goods yard) where a turnout will be controlled by the box because the other end of the crossover is used by passenger trains.

Right, much obliged

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  • RMweb Gold

What JP said.  In the UK, any movement of a passenger carrying train (including workmens') must be signalled under our 'full block' regulations, and full 'interlocking', mechanical in this case, between turnouts (switches) and signals to prevent conflicting movements.  Facing turnouts must have interlocked point locks which means that the signal cannot be cleared until the turnout is correctly set and locked for the movement.  Full block interlocking means that the signal protecting a section cannot be cleared unless the next box along has cleared it, which it must not do until the previous train has passed through it to an established 'clearing point'.  As my guard's inspector said when he passed me out on Rules and Regs, 'every one of these rules was found at the bottom of a bucket of blood'; melodramatic but not inaccurate.

 

If a train is held at a signal on a running line, the driver must contact the signalman within 2 minutes of stopping, and at 5 minute intervals afterwards to remind the signalman that his train is there so that he does not let another one up behind it, a frequent cause of accidents in the late Victorian era.  He must himself go to the signalbox, sign the register to show that he has done so, and verify that the necessary protection measures have been put in place, or send his fireman to do so.

 

Some relaxation of this is allowed for 'permissive block' freight only lines speed restricted to 15mph, in that trains may follow each other through the section and facing point locks, fpls, are not needed, but there is still interlocking preventing conflicting movements or signals being cleared for them.  You do not need to worry about this for your layout.

 

Shunting movements on running lines (i.e signalled lines) are controlled by ground disc shunting signals with specific meanings known to the traincrews as part of their route knowledge; speed is restricted to 15mph or 'a speed consistent with being able to stop the train withinin the distance that the driver verify is clear ahead in the direction of the movement'.  Movements not on running lines, i.e. in yards and sidings, are controlled by handsignals, or handlamps at night.  Further rules come into play at times of restricted visibility, 'Fog or Falling Snow'.   

 

This is brief and very basic flavour of the British way of keeping trains apart from each other.  I referred to 'Block' working; this is actually not anything to worry much about.  It means the dividing up of a railway line into sections which only one train can occupy at a time, and at each end is a signalbox (of course, at your terminus there's only one end).  Each signalbox has a 'starter' (the proper term is 'section signal') signal to control the entrance to the section ahead of if, and the section terminates at the next signalbox's 'home' signal.  The bit between the home and starter signals is called 'station limits' even if there isn't actually a station, and shunting may take place in this area (I won't call it a section because this is exactly what it isn't) of track, controlled by subsidiary shunting signals.  How things worked in station limits you will need to have a basic grasp of, because this is what the majority of your movements will be.  Exact practice and the form the signals took varied between railways, and some sections, I mean parts, of the country's railway network are still controlled in this way, so it can (if you can visit after the plague is over) see it in everyday operation.

 

I can't simplify it more without making it more confusing; it's a vast subject and I've probably confused you anyway.  I've left entire books' worth out.  But if you can get a handle on the basic principles, it will help you to install the correct signals in the correct places on your layout and understand their funtion.  Glad to help if I have done, and sorry if I've made it worse!

 

Get in touch if you need more explanation or are not sure of the terminology. You'll come to the limit of my expertise fairly quickly, and I used to work as traincrew back in the 70s. 

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Hi Forever Autumn, I've just picked up on your thread.  You were asking for advice about Point Rodding, and the discussion has recently come back to signalling and operation which are all related. 

 

Have a look at the booklet "Point Rodding: Prototype and Planning Notes for Modellers" published by the 2MM Scale Association and available (to members and non-members)  from their (our) website for £7.00 (+ P&P if outside the UK) :

http://www.2mm.org.uk/products/nms/index.html

As it's title suggests, it's a good general introduction to the layout of prototypical point rodding in the UK, and is not scale-specific.  You should find enough information in there to design the rodding for your layout, tho' if you want to make it fully Company-specific you will need to look at as many photographs of your prototype as you can (always good advice for any aspect of railway modelling), and research the Company's documents and drawings.

Good Luck.

 

Laurie Adams

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