What is a professional

[karlbstd]

22 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Ladies of the night would agree.

I believe the current term is Sex worker, politically correct and more engaging and inclusive of today’s society, however not sure if the term worker is correctly applied?? I’ve always taken in a very old fashioned and simplistic manner “worker” to be someone who sells their labour for pay and reward, thus attracting the interest of the HMRC? Minefield absolute minefield!

[karlbstd]

22 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

You should have got one from a professional soapbox engineer!

 

 

Not so much of a shell, more a damp squib.  Anyhow, its provided something to talk about other than covid19 and panic buying!

 

 

[karlbstd]

On 26/03/2020 at 09:36, Kylestrome said:

 

Do you have a suitable alternative word to describe someone who makes money from what they do?

 

Here are some to choose from, courtesy of Thesaurus:

competent, efficient, experienced, licensed, qualified, skillful, ace, adept, crackerjack, expert, sharp, slick, there, able, acknowledged, finished, knowing one's stuff, known, learned, on the ball, polished, practiced, proficient, up to speed, well-qualified.

 

I rather like "crackerjack", myself.

 

David

 

[Joseph_Pestell]

18 minutes ago, karlbstd said:

I believe the current term is Sex worker, politically correct and more engaging and inclusive of today’s society, however not sure if the term worker is correctly applied?? I’ve always taken in a very old fashioned and simplistic manner “worker” to be someone who sells their labour for pay and reward, thus attracting the interest of the HMRC? Minefield absolute minefield!

 

HMRC are open to taking money from sex workers by way of NI contributions and income tax.

[hayfield]

On 26/03/2020 at 18:57, chris p bacon said:

I teased a group of PROBUS members some time ago (too young to join and wouldn't anyway)  I asked what it stood for, the answer was 'Professional & Business"  I laughed as they were all what I would call 'middle management' in companies like BT with not a profession amongst them.  

The only person I know who did qualify was a solicitor, but she couldn't join.  

 

The trouble is in large companies a lot of what would have been called middle management now have the title of director. In the old days a person may have been called "senior buyer" now would be called director of obtaining widgets, with several junior directors below

 

I had a friend who in the past was one of IBM's salesmen, he always referred to office based non sales staff as shiny bums. They spent most of the day polishing the seats of their office chairs doing nothing. Also in the sales field we called our trainers failed salesmen, but I guess many who excel at their jobs could never teach 

 

I now work for a large company, the perception its so top heavy with management. There has been a recent cull of reducing posts by a third to save money, over the past 10 years there have been two projects to reduce management on the shop floor, after the first attempt we ended up with more managers. the second attempt has had no reduction on numbers, however staff are now expected to take over some of the previous managerial duties, 

 

What is this got to do with the what is a professional, I am certain you see many in your industry who lack the qualifications but do a far better job than those with them. Model makers was and as far as I know a profession, many industries rely on models. Same as being an artist, my farther in law at 90 is still a fantastic artist, never earned a living at it but sold many paintings over the years.

 

On the other hand if a bricklayer earns his livelihood building walls, even though he may have learnt on the job, could rightly call himself a professional if he works to professional standards 

[karlbstd]

1 minute ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

HMRC are open to taking money from sex workers by way of NI contributions and income tax.

One thing to be inviting people to contribute, altogether another matter getting the money I suspect, not sure the take up is that great?

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, karlbstd said:

One thing to be inviting people to contribute, altogether another matter getting the money I suspect, not sure the take up is that great?

 

Yes, clearly it is an activity which, being largely covert anyway, is likely to pass below the horizon for HMRC. But the same is true for a lot of activities. The "black economy" is much larger in this country than Govt ever cares to admit or deal with.

 

But that said, I know sex workers who do self-assessment returns to HMRC. It must be interesting determining what are allowable business expenses to deduct from income.

[RBAGE]

On 26/03/2020 at 17:58, MarkC said:

As has been said before, Titanic was designed, built and operated by professionals; the Ark was designed, built and operated by amateurs... 

Nice one, MarkC of Durham

[karlbstd]

Morning all, thank you all for your contributions to the original Question posed, out of which positively flowed further questions and stimulating debate?

Been a very useful exercise, one of your contributors suggested I might have had issue with a So called Professional, absolutely right Sir, but sorry no medal, another thought I might have had issue with BRM and their advertising, totally wrong I’m afraid, but threw up a very interesting sub question, what if any responsibility do magazines have for verifying the suitability and qualification if any of their advertisers,  what Due Diligence does the magazine undertake? Are they required to take?
We had the normal smattering of sarcasm disguised As Wit?
There was some really interesting information coming out of North America on how they manage similar issues.

The normal Orwellian and Huxley arguments around control big brother authority etc etc and some really good responses  and suggestions to the original question posed.
Someone referenced Damp Squibs, not sure what excitement levels are being achieved on here, but sorry if it disappointed?
Lobbing Shells, in my 23 years of military service we Lobbed grenades and fired shells, who knows the Royal Artillery may have a different view? The gentleman seemed to question my absence after lobbing  so as to speak? No just living my life popping in and out, I was not aware daily presence was a condition of membership? So apologies if you felt I was ignoring you?
But  ultimately we must not forget Opinions are like A*** Holes everyone has one and we should relish and cherish other people’s views, we don’t have to agree, but we should listen, we cannot deny people their opinions, bed rock of the Democracy I spent 23 years defending
As for me I’m going to plod along and pursue my civil action post Global Pandemic for poor quality workmanship and breach of contract, but being a military man who lobs grenades, I’m keeping my powder dry at this time, thanks again for a very useful and interesting debate, I look forward to following other equally interesting and stimulating subjects.

[Phil Parker]

5 minutes ago, karlbstd said:

another thought I might have had issue with BRM and their advertising, totally wrong I’m afraid, but threw up a very interesting sub question, what if any responsibility do magazines have for verifying the suitability and qualification if any of their advertisers,  what Due Diligence does the magazine undertake? Are they required to take?

 

It would be impossible to vet every advertiser in any publication be it magazine, newspaper or TV station. Even if anyone did try it, as this thread proves, simply defining the standard to hold them against would be almost impossible. Were anyone to try this, it would simply be cheaper to abandon accepting advertising rather than employ teams of people to visit every advertiser ever month to check they are delivering what they promise. At that point, all magazine (not just model railway ones), newspapers and TV stations become unviable and close.

 

Legally, your recourse is through the Advertising Standards authority if you feel there has been false advertising - it is up to the advertiser to tell the truth. False advertising is a crime and they should be held accountable.

 

You can also chat to your local Trading Standards department. They are very likely to have had experience of this - you aren't the first to suffer this way.

 

Finally, if you have paid for any services by credit card, they have people versed in dealing with unhappy customers. I know of at least one person in a very similar situation who got a refund from the CC company.

 

So, if you want to lob grenades around, I suggest you lob them in the direction of your enemy and not at those who are on your side.

[hayfield]

In the past if I was unhappy with an item I made, I would built another.

 

May be a different story if someone is building an expensive (or inexpensive one) kit, on the other hand I would be devastated If I messed up something or failed on the quality front.

 

I would like to think I know my limitations, certain things I can build to acceptable standards, other things I can repair, if asked to build a loco or coach kit for money I would decline, simply there are too many variables to satisfy. For a start I am rubbish at lining a loco. My painting is passable, but don't thing its up to charging for. 90% of the build process I am fine, BUT that leaves the 10% which is not so good. I am building a loco for a friend, I know my standards are higher than his and he will be happy with my work, he can paint it though

 

Good luck, I would have hoped that had you informed him of your displeasure he would have made efforts to redress the situation

[Happy Hippo]

On 26/03/2020 at 16:37, PaulRhB said:

The US NMRA Master Model Railroader scheme always strikes me as a little showing off like the competition side of model engineering and military modelling. I appreciate the excuse to have a show to display them but as others have said previous results speak more than any paper certificates in this hobby. Professional is a useful tag to tell people you do it as a service but I’d still want to see the previous work as like art the style and mediums of expertise are equally important to me.

We certainly don’t need qualifications and certifications adding as they just add cost and apart from telling people not to stick it in their mouth how dangerous are they?  Pat testing etc is for mains voltage and any of us can wire up low voltage lights at home and power feeds to track without certificates as they are accepted as not dangerous in law. Half the layouts on the circuit would be banned if they restricted that  

When I was 'doing American' some years back, I asked the NMRA I could become a master loco builder having scratchbuilt a Porter 0-6-2t live steamer.  According to their regulations this was not possible and I'd have to build a further six!

[62613]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

But that said, I know sex workers who do self-assessment returns to HMRC. It must be interesting determining what are allowable business expenses to deduct from income.

Friend of mine worked for the revenue, at one time in the investigation team. One day, while in the office, he had a telephone inquiry from a "Lady", asking if she could claim for a boob job. The short answer was, she couldn't! Sorry for the O.T.

Edited March 28, 2020 by 62613

[Joseph_Pestell]

Now that we know the reason for the OP, it puts a different light on it.

 

Without having all the details, it is difficult to comment. But initial reaction is that there is probably not much to be done. Without any recognised standards, who is to say whether the work done was of the right standard relative to what was paid? Any court action would struggle to succeed.

 

Does the "professional" have any track record?

[jjb1970]

This is one of those things people get very precious about. The distinction between professional, craftsman, artisan, labourer etc tend to rather divisive and are often used more as a means to inflate ego than anything else. 

[The Johnster]

And for marketing, where as we all know the truth is held above all things... Profession and Trade have a distinct meaning in law, which is about as specific as you can get and is not a borrowing of those terms from a previous age when they did not have a meaning in law.  Physicians would maintain that they've been Professional since Hippocrates and his oath 2,300 years ago.  Terms such as craftsmans one who has been accepted as a member of a Craft Guild are similar, and date certainly to Medieval times if not before.  But artisan, labourer, specialist and such, while they have a defined meaning, are not terms that are subject to the same control or regulation from Professional Associations, or Trade and Craft Guilds, and are meaningless when they are used as titles or to claim a recognised or standardised level of competence and skill.  They sound good, but I would be reluctant to employ anyone to do work for me who described him/herself as a specialist or an artisan with no other qualification; I'd suspect him/her of mendacity and projecting a somewhat inflated image of themselves, and judge their honesty and competence accordingly.

[karlbstd]

Yes I based my decision on a visual assessment  of their workmanship, very different to what I actually ordered, but it was an indication, and their home page reviews from supposed satisfied customers, I failed however as I should have followed that up a spoken with said customers?

There has been plenty of dialogue acknowledgement of the problem variously over nearly 4 months now, and then  “ sorry Guv not our problem” 

Odd for nearly 4 months apologies and promising rectification!
Regards compensation and or return of goods and or  full refund, simply I think?  Not working, not to agreed specification, late delivery ( but I was prepared to overlook this) are fairly good grounds under the Sale of Goods Act and the Consumer Act, and not surprisingly my Solicitor whom I had taken advice from some time before the bombshell ( because I sensed where this was going) agrees as does the local trading standards.

So got all that covered thanks, and yes be assured Lobbing grenades in a certain direction! Not quite sure of any Blue on Blue Phil?

 

i think overall it comes down to the bottom line £££££ profit margins shaving off and cutting corners and ultimately reducing standards, all of which brings you back to the bottom line when it goes wrong, corrective action will cost money!

More importantly it’s about Honesty and Integrity sadly absent over the last 3 nearly 4 months, you’re Nothing if you have no Integrity just an empty shell of a man, meaningless and valueless.

[hayfield]

Quite often someone comes on here asking for recommendations for a good modelmaker. Many of us shy away from recommending those we use. Good reliable model makers are usually booked up for months, or preciously guarded.

 

It is a sad situation where something goes wrong and a resolution cannot be agreed on. Lets face it in the end the issue has to be resolved. When it gets to having to use legal proceedings, usually this leads to additional expense and possibly both parties being out of pocket. Perhaps the builder thinks you will just go away ? or cannot face up to the reality of the situation

[Phil Parker]

43 minutes ago, karlbstd said:

So got all that covered thanks, and yes be assured Lobbing grenades in a certain direction! Not quite sure of any Blue on Blue Phil?

 

That's OK. Your posting clearly seemed to be suggesting you were considering legal action against anyone who carried the advert you responded to as it was their fault for not checking every advertiser out for you. I thought it was better to clarify matters before you wasted money on solicitors.

 

I'd also suggest that if this is going to law, discussions on a public website might not be the wisest course of action.

[karlbstd]

1 hour ago, Phil Parker said:

 

That's OK. Your posting clearly seemed to be suggesting you were considering legal action against anyone who carried the advert you responded to as it was their fault for not checking every advertiser out for you. I thought it was better to clarify matters before you wasted money on solicitors.

 

I'd also suggest that if this is going to law, discussions on a public website might not be the wisest course of action.

 

[karlbstd]

1 hour ago, hayfield said:

Quite often someone comes on here asking for recommendations for a good modelmaker. Many of us shy away from recommending those we use. Good reliable model makers are usually booked up for months, or preciously guarded.

 

It is a sad situation where something goes wrong and a resolution cannot be agreed on. Lets face it in the end the issue has to be resolved. When it gets to having to use legal proceedings, usually this leads to additional expense and possibly both parties being out of pocket. Perhaps the builder thinks you will just go away ? or cannot face up to the reality of the situation

Think you’ve hit the nail on the head, nots great but sometimes you have to take a stand if only to protect others from similar behaviour? Time will tell??

Wont allow it to ruin my enjoyment of an otherwise interesting varied and enjoyable hobby.

[hayfield]

I don't know the issues you have had, but in our hobby the vast majority of modellers, retailers and manufacturers are a super bunch, normally going out of their way to help others. Sometimes things do go wrong, but issues are resolved without fuss, 

 

Things do get lost or broken, instructions misunderstood or things just turnout not as expected. Again these are more often resolved without fuss. There are a small minority who are either out for themselves or just want to take advantage of others good nature. They just need to be dealt with appropriately.

 

We should treat others how we would like to be treated, where possible just be kind to each other, especially in these times

 

Good luck with your issues.  

[Catkins]

On 26/03/2020 at 08:29, Lantavian said:

Professional means nothing now other than "I don't consider myself an amateur because I charge money for what I do"

 

A sad decline.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a lorry driver.

Its a job that we have training to do, yet are considered un-skilled by most people, but when we get something horribly wrong we suddenly become "professional drivers"

[Phil Parker]

9 hours ago, karlbstd said:

another thought I might have had issue with BRM and their advertising, totally wrong I’m afraid, but threw up a very interesting sub question, what if any responsibility do magazines have for verifying the suitability and qualification if any of their advertisers,  what Due Diligence does the magazine undertake? Are they required to take?

 

3 hours ago, karlbstd said:

Phil not sure how the confusion arises Thought I had been very clear? Don’t remember any talk of Mass litigation?

 

The veiled threat disguised as a question isn't, you'll be surprised to learn, a new thing. Those who have been around for a while and have seen it before will just roll their eyes at the newbie trying to be macho. They will also spot that it's not a clever idea to threaten the magazine that supports this forum, as the Mods get annoyed.

 

Stop it now.

[hayfield]

11 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

The veiled threat disguised as a question isn't, you'll be surprised to learn, a new thing. Those who have been around for a while and have seen it before will just roll their eyes at the newbie trying to be macho. They will also spot that it's not a clever idea to threaten the magazine that supports this forum, as the Mods get annoyed.

 

Stop it now.

 

Phil

 

I never saw the question as a threat, most would agree that there is little a publishing company can do, the consumer should always do due diligence and manage things when they go wrong. Just because someone has a dispute, proves one thing. There is a dispute.