What typed of bus ran in Essex late 50's early 60's

[gobbler]

I know the help and knowledge here is indispensable,  so i have a question....

 

What buses ran in Essex and East Anglia during the mid to late 50's and early 60's???

 

I would prefer a kit, or if anyone knows of 4mm scale drawings, I could have a go and scratch build one.

 

Thanks in advance 

 

Scott.

Edited March 26, 2020 by gobbler
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[cravensdmufan]

As an Essex boy born and bred in Brentwood in the mid 50's I have fond memories of riding Eastern National buses in my childhood.

 

I well remember the following:

 

Double deckers:  Bristol K, and Bristol LD (and Bristol FLFs from 1960)

 

Single deckers:  Bristol L (rear sliding door, my school bus!),  Bristol MW and Bristol LS.

 

All built Eastern Coachworks of Lowestoft in green and cream livery.

 

Eastern Counties in Suffolk Norfolk and Cambridgeshire had similar buses (in red livery of course!).

 

Google image searches will reveal loads of photos,  Also you can get a flavour just by browsing eBay offerings:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2060353.m570.l1313.TR9.TRC2.A0.H1.XEastern+National.TRS0&_nkw=Eastern+National&_sacat=0

 

I note you are in Colchester - they had their own Corporation buses - again, a Google Images search will help.

 

There are/were also a few books on Essesx buses.  One of mine is "The Years between 1909-1969 - The Eastern National Story" OPC Crawley/ MacGregor/ Simpson which is a treasure trove of information.

 

Don't know of any scale drawing though. Nor do I know of any kits. There are a number of EFE etc "RTR" models in 4mm which of which I assume you are aware.

 

 

Edited March 26, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Jusr read in book FLFs were first introduced 1960. Earlier than I'd remembered.

[PhilJ W]

Most buses in Essex during the period in question were operated by Eastern National. Being a Tilling group company their buses were almost entirely of Bristol/ECW manufacture. The exceptions were the two municipal operators, Southend and Colchester and in the south east of the county where London Transport penetrated. Southend and Colchester both operated buses with very similar open backed Massey bodies from the mid 50's. Southend on Daimler and Leyland chassis and Colchester on AEC's. London Transport operated country buses as far as Harlow where they operated all of the local services and as well central red buses operated as far as Brentwood and Ongar, usually RT type. There were a few independants but most were absorbed by Eastern National before 1960 but Moores of Kelvedon not until the early 60's. Liveries were for Eastern National the standard Tilling green/cream. Southend were pale blue/cream and Colchester Maroon/cream. 

[PhilJ W]

Most of the Bristol/ECW types are available 'off the peg' The KSW and the L from OOC and the FLF from EFE, the was also a plastic kit for the earlier rear entrance Lodekka. IIRC there was a white metal kit for the Massey body but now long out of production.

[cravensdmufan]

B-T models did a open platform LD (maybe not an ENOC but certainly in Crosville).  Anyone know if "Eastern National" decals are available? 

 

This thread has given me an idea to start a collection of models of buses from my early years!

[stewartingram]

http://modelbuszone.co.uk/ is a great resource, claiming to list all bus models (RTP & kit), and also by fleetlists of operators.

 

Pedantic mode - the OOC d/d is NOT a KSW, but a K, with a very early type of squared off window design found only on very early buses of the type (as indeed is the L model). The Lodekka rear platform d/dis also available in early any later styles, (Eastern Counties classed them as LKD & LFS),, from Base & OOC respectively.

 

Stewart

 

Just to add, the standard green (and red) paint for the Tilling group of buses, and Eastern National transfers, are easy to source in model form from various suppliers.

[gobbler]

Wow, you guys certainly know your onions....er....buses.

 

I was born in Maldon and grew up in Hatfield Peverel.  The time frame I model is during the transitional period, so I can run steam, diesels and DMU's, though as a young lad all I saw was BR blue class 20's, 31's, 37's and 47's and EMU's of various classes.

 

I remember jumping on buses 53, 353, 91 and 92 to get to and from Chelmsford.  Bunked the train from Hatty P to Ingatestone on a Friday night to go to my mates school's disco, normally a class 31 with a train of suburban coaches.  Distinctly remember always finding an empty compartment for the journey.

 

You've come up with a mine of information, most of it above my head.  I should be able to get general dimensions from somewhere, I suppose.  From  these i should be able to make a passable model or two.

 

Thanks to everyone. 

 

Scott

[Gwiwer]

Essex and rural Suffolk to its north were famed for its many independent bus operators.  Among them, though surely not a complete list and without checking the dates they provided service, were:-

 

Hedingham Omnibuses

Osbornes, Tollesbury

Rules Coaches

Wents Coaches

Lodge, High Easter

Cedrics, Wivenhoe

Chambers, Bures

Blackwells, Earl's Colne

Norfolks, Neyland

Moores, Kelvedon

Mulley's, Ixworth

Theobald's, Long Melford

Corona Coaches, Sudbury

 

Numerous of these had significant fleets and / or were operators of buses purchased second-hand from London Transport.  A few are still with us in one form or another and in more recent years many more have sprung up to run council contract services (and occasionally commercial ones) probably offering a cheaper option than the "big boys".  

 

Some images along with type details appear here : https://www.mikesbuspages.com/englishindependents.htm

 

[gobbler]

I've found some general dimensions:-

8ft wide (32mm)

30ft long (120mm)

10ft 2 high (40.75ish)

 

Using pictures i should be able to knock up a reasonable drawing.

 

I'll post it before any sort of construction is made.

 

Thanks again

 

Scott

[cravensdmufan]

10 minutes ago, gobbler said:

I've found some general dimensions:-

8ft wide (32mm)

30ft long (120mm)

10ft 2 high (40.75ish)

 

Using pictures i should be able to knock up a reasonable drawing.

 

I'll post it before any sort of construction is made.

 

Thanks again

 

Scott

Looking forward to following your project.

[cravensdmufan]

1 hour ago, stewartingram said:

http://modelbuszone.co.uk/ is a great resource, claiming to list all bus models (RTP & kit), and also by fleetlists of operators.

That's a great site - very useful indeed.  Thanks!

[MyRule1]

As mentioned in an earlier post in the 50/60's much of Essex was in the LT area. I lived in Harlow and mainstays  of the bus routes were RT and RF. We had the odd Eastern National service. In Harlow all the buses were country green but 7 miles south you could see LT red.

 

Tower models did a RT, Peco now own the moulds but have not reissued it.

Edited March 26, 2020 by MyRule1

[Johann Marsbar]

21 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

Wents Coaches

 

Still running quality stuff like this as late as 1982 !

 

[cravensdmufan]

23 minutes ago, MyRule1 said:

As mentioned in an earlier post in the 50/60's much of Essex was in the LT area. I lived in Harlow and mainstays  of the bus routes were RT and RF. We had the odd Eastern National service. In Harlow all the buses were country green but 7 miles south you could see LT red.

 

Tower models did a RT, Peco now own the moulds but have not reissued it.

Indeed.  In Brentwood we had both red and green RTs. Plus of course the wonderful RMCLs on the Green Line route 721.

 

Not OP Scott's area of interest, but happy memories nonetheless! 

Edited March 26, 2020 by cravensdmufan
Additional wording

[Gwiwer]

1 minute ago, cravensdmufan said:

RMCLs

 

I might be correcting a typo but they were RCL if the more regular 30' version or RMC if 27' 6" though they were much less common on the 721 which should have only had the longer vehicles.  

 

40 minutes ago, gobbler said:

I've found some general dimensions:-

8ft wide (32mm)

30ft long (120mm)

 

Beware changes in legislation.  Buses and coaches were once limited to 7' 6" wide and 27' 6" long.  Off the top of my head I cannot recall the dates those changed to permit 8' 0" and 30' 0" but early 1960s is in mind.  

 

For Bristol marques the manufacturer added the letter W to the type code in certain cases (such as KS becoming KSW) to distinguish the greater width.  M-types became MW.  A white steering wheel was fitted to remind the driver of the extra width which is something many modellers faithfully replicate.  London types came under slightly different legislation; wider buses were not permitted by City of London Police until the RTW class though Routemasters were 8' 0" wide from the outset in 1954.  They were still restricted to 27' 6" for many years with the later 30' 0" RML and RCL types being the only rear-entrance vehicles built for the Capital to that length.  

[Gwiwer]

30 minutes ago, Johann Marsbar said:

Still running quality stuff like this as late as 1982 !

 

The economics of rural independent bus operation has often meant older types survived for many years with them when they had vanished elsewhere.  Wents, Norfolks and Rules were among those who had some very interesting hardware while Osbornes and Hedingham managed to renew (usually with second-hand stock) more often.  IIRC it was Norfolks who were still running a normal-control Bedford until well into the 1970s.

[friscopete]

I used to see Grey Green coaches when i was kid in Barkingside.Not as buses of course.I suppose  for coach trips etc . I wasnt into buses but first trolley buses that terminated  at the Fairlop roundabout and then petrol buses.Not a lot of help really .

[Johann Marsbar]

12 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

The economics of rural independent bus operation has often meant older types survived for many years with them when they had vanished elsewhere.  Wents, Norfolks and Rules were among those who had some very interesting hardware while Osbornes and Hedingham managed to renew (usually with second-hand stock) more often.  IIRC it was Norfolks who were still running a normal-control Bedford until well into the 1970s.

Sayers (Ipswich) were certainly running a late '50s Albion Aberdonian coach as late as 1978, as I remember riding on it.

[PhilJ W]

FYI Lodge coaches are still around and celebrating their 100th anniversary.

[Gwiwer]

45 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

FYI Lodge coaches are still around and celebrating their 100th anniversary.

 

Hedingham & District, later Hedingham Omnibuses, have become one of the larger operators in Essex and are now a part of the national Go Ahead Group.  Still very much with us and now found farther and wider than ever before.  

[Joseph_Pestell]

2 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

 

Hedingham & District, later Hedingham Omnibuses, have become one of the larger operators in Essex and are now a part of the national Go Ahead Group.  Still very much with us and now found farther and wider than ever before.  

Mmmm. GoAhead's takeovers of local operators are sometimes a little questionable ethically.

[cravensdmufan]

2 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

 

I might be correcting a typo but they were RCL if the more regular 30' version or RMC if 27' 6" though they were much less common on the 721 which should have only had the longer vehicles.  

 

You're right, they were RCL's.  The ones with the extra small windows in the middle.

 

I have a lovely model of the exact type of one I used to travel every day between Romford and Brentwood.  One of my most prized models actually.

 

 

[Gwiwer]

RCL2218 (as per the model above) came to Reigate when the 721 went one-man and these superb coaches were relegated to bus work.  She was a regular performer on the 405 and 414 which I used quite often between West Croydon and Crawley or Horsham.   The Bristol FLF behind is on another route I know well namely the 251 Southend - Wood Green and correctly has the Cave-Brown-Cave heating grilles either side of the destination as found on the vehicles normally employed on this 3-hour marathon.  A nicely modelled scene with the MW and RELL appropriately completing the picture.  

[crompton 33]

3 hours ago, Gwiwer said:

Essex and rural Suffolk to its north were famed for its many independent bus operators.  Among them, though surely not a complete list and without checking the dates they provided service, were:-

 

Hedingham Omnibuses

Osbornes, Tollesbury

Rules Coaches

Wents Coaches

Lodge, High Easter

Cedrics, Wivenhoe

Chambers, Bures

Blackwells, Earl's Colne

Norfolks, Neyland

Moores, Kelvedon

Mulley's, Ixworth

Theobald's, Long Melford

Corona Coaches, Sudbury

 

Numerous of these had significant fleets and / or were operators of buses purchased second-hand from London Transport.  A few are still with us in one form or another and in more recent years many more have sprung up to run council contract services (and occasionally commercial ones) probably offering a cheaper option than the "big boys".  

 

Some images along with type details appear here : https://www.mikesbuspages.com/englishindependents.htm

 

I don't think any body wants the last one on your list

[Joseph_Pestell]

12 minutes ago, Gwiwer said:

RCL2218 (as per the model above) came to Reigate when the 721 went one-man and these superb coaches were relegated to bus work.  She was a regular performer on the 405 and 414 which I used quite often between West Croydon and Crawley or Horsham.   The Bristol FLF behind is on another route I know well namely the 251 Southend - Wood Green and correctly has the Cave-Brown-Cave heating grilles either side of the destination as found on the vehicles normally employed on this 3-hour marathon.  A nicely modelled scene with the MW and RELL appropriately completing the picture.  

I share your enthusiasm for the RCL. Always a bonus when one turned up at the right time to take me from school in South Croydon up to West Croydon bus station.