Clapping for Carers

[Phil Parker]

23 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

 

That sounds like something for a union to pick up or for you to seek legal advice. Five years pension benefit will be a significant figure.

 

Your pay slips will provide a record of your contributions, together with your employment contract and any records of AVCs you should be able to reconstruct what you are owed.

 

On what I was earning, joining the union was financially out of the question. As I recall, it was 2% of the salary of the grade above me. To make matters worse, the local union rep was a big mover in the local Conservative party, so her reasons for doing the job were more to get out of work and interfere with people. No donkey jacket required!

 

Since we are talking the early 1990s, I don't have pay slips and as I recall, the pension wasn't recorded on them at that time. Whether all this has affected my voting is between me and the ballot box.

 

Still, I learnt an appreciation of the poorest paid in society and I don't care how many NHS workers don't want me to clap, or honk my old car horn, for them, I'll give the delivery drivers, cleaners, binmen, bus driver and supermarket staff a bit of appreciation.

[jjb1970]

6 minutes ago, Phil Parker said:

 

On what I was earning, joining the union was financially out of the question. As I recall, it was 2% of the salary of the grade above me. To make matters worse, the local union rep was a big mover in the local Conservative party, so her reasons for doing the job were more to get out of work and interfere with people. No donkey jacket required!

 

Since we are talking the early 1990s, I don't have pay slips and as I recall, the pension wasn't recorded on them at that time. Whether all this has affected my voting is between me and the ballot box.

 

Still, I learnt an appreciation of the poorest paid in society and I don't care how many NHS workers don't want me to clap, or honk my old car horn, for them, I'll give the delivery drivers, cleaners, binmen, bus driver and supermarket staff a bit of appreciation.

 

At that time government pensions were excellent.  Did you retain a copy of your contract of employment and leaving letter?

 

It's obviously your decision but I would have a go. MPs can be very good in cases like these. 

 

I agree completely that all those who contribute to society should be appreciated and one of the very few positives of this whole sorry mess is that people are more aware of the efforts of shop workers, delivery drivers, refuse collectors etc.

[alastairq]

3 hours ago, Bernard Lamb said:

it does seem to be appreciated by our local health care professionals.

 I ave to ask myself......would they 'dare' to do otherwise??

[jjb1970]

In the case of shop workers, delivery drivers, refuse collectors etc why not express appreciation directly, be nice and say thank you directly? I think that is a nicer gesture than clapping once a week.

[alastairq]

2 hours ago, rob D2 said:

Jobs “ for the government “ have always paid rather poorly . I was amazed during my recent job search what civil service jobs there were and the poor pay

 I agree..but..there are other compensations than simply, the pay slip?

{No, the pensions are not truly 'non-contributory'.....lower wage levels are there for a reason?]

 

Whilst job security is by no means a 'given' within the Civil Service these days.....[quite the opposite, in fact].....and the conditions of employment would never be tolerated in the so-called private sector......including, as it does, a demand for loyalty to the State.....there is opportunity to move around inside the civil service without necessarily re-entering the job market.  

 

As well as training opportunities beyond the wildest dreams of most...in company time, so to speak.

[jjb1970]

Assessing a job is a case of looking at everything, pay, pension, conditions of employment, career development,  earnings potential, training etc and whether or not it is something you want to do. And happiness is important,  how much pressure does a job entail, responsibility, risk etc. It's easy to just compare headline pay and to ignore everything else but it's a false comparison. 

[Erichill16]

18 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

In the case of shop workers, delivery drivers, refuse collectors etc why not express appreciation directly, be nice and say thank you directly? I think that is a nicer gesture than clapping once a week.

You can do both.

[jjb1970]

15 minutes ago, Erichill16 said:

You can do both.

 

Indeed I could, but I would rather extend courtesy and appreciation to those I interact with, something which is not limited to the COVID mess or to key workers. It amazes me some seem to think treating people decently should be a response to a pandemic or a special favour for key workers when it should be just the way we behave. I just find the whole clapping thing to be empty virtue signalling and that there is something rather insidious about it all.

[Ross34]

 

A number of my family work in the NHS and have said numerous times that they and the vast majority of the staff are frankly embarassed by it all. All they've ever wanted is for people to stick by the rules. Clapping doesn't make their life easier - reducing the spread of the virus certainly does - it also enables them to treat other non-Covid patients quicker that have had their treament programs postponed or cancelled.

I fear sometimes that the "cure" for Covid will prove to be worse than the disease.

[AY Mod]

2 hours ago, jjb1970 said:

Indeed I could, but I would rather extend courtesy and appreciation to those I interact with, 

 

Tell you what; you do what you wish..

 

Quote

 I just find the whole clapping thing to be empty virtue signalling and that there is something rather insidious about it all

 

... And I will do what I wish, but please do not ever presume to know what my intentions are and whether any actions are limited to anything seen or said. 

 

I think you owe an apology to a lot people for that one.

[jjb1970]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Tell you what; you do what you wish..

 

 

... And I will do what I wish, but please do not ever presume to know what my intentions are and whether any actions are limited to anything seen or said. 

 

I think you owe an apology to a lot people for that one.

 

If you are genuine in your clapping then of course I am happy to accept that you are not virtue signalling. However, unless you are naïve or wilfully obtuse it's pretty apparent there is a lot of virtue signalling and the clap for carers is all part of a carefully controlled campaign. But, that said, it's your house and your rules, therefore please close my account. To friends I've made on RMWeb, please keep in touch.

[AY Mod]

2 minutes ago, jjb1970 said:

unless you are naïve or wilfully obtuse it's pretty apparent there is a lot of virtue signalling and the clap for carers is all part of a carefully controlled campaign.

 

Still you persist in second-guessing me and others. Carefully controlled campaign? Pathetic.

[phil-b259]

3 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

..... Carefully controlled campaign?

 

While it certainly didn't start that way, there is a very real danger it can become one.

 

With all that has gone on in days / weeks, I'm sure that subtlety is not lost on the inhabitants of Whitehall (or indeed other political parties).

 

It would be a shame if something so good turned sour because of manipulation - but the longer it goes on the grater the chance of that happening.

 

I note that even the person who had the original idea now admits the whole thing is beginning to getting a bit too politicised and thus it is sensible to make this weeks clap the last.

 

 

 

 

[AY Mod]

10 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

With all that has gone on in days / weeks, I'm sure that subtlety is not lost on the inhabitants of Whitehall (or indeed other political parties).

 

I've never seen it as anything other than completely apolitical which is one of its positives.

[Bon Accord]

1 minute ago, AY Mod said:

 

I've never seen it as anything other than completely apolitical which is one of its positives.

 

You may see it as being apolitical but the rather ironic thing here is that many politicians quite obviously think the opposite.

From the original somewhat noble sentiment it has now quite clearly evolved into a classic case of political sleight of hand.

 

[AY Mod]

1 minute ago, Bon Accord said:

it has now quite clearly evolved into a classic case of political sleight of hand.

 

Evidence?

[alastairq]

I have to ask the question....why now?

 

Why was the nation nothing like as appreciative last year?

Or 1998?

Why have public service workers been subject to so much vitriol and abuse from the general public over the past 5 decades?

We do what we want, when it suits, perhaps?

Hmmmmmm!

[phil-b259]

25 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

 

Evidence?

 

Oh come on Andy - its not as if you are going to find a bit of HM Government paper / email with " lets focus on clapping to distract the public from our inability to get a load of PPE" or "lets focus on clapping to avoid awkward questions from teachers about school re-openings" to quote 2 possible examples) written on it?

 

However the potential (and please note the use of that specific word in this phrase) for such a thing quite clearly exists - and if I can think of it then I'm sure Boris, Starmer, Sturgeon, etc can do too.

 

That is why I believe the lady who started the initiative back in March has said she thinks its time to bring the event to a dignified close, rather than let it carry on and get mired in political point scoring or indeed community breakdowns as folk become judgemental of their neighbours.

 

As the saying goes "all good things come to an end". For avoidance of doubt I believe it was a good thing to do, motivated by all the right reasons and was appreciated by many - but we must draw a line somewhere. Many a good thing has turned sour because folk (including me that is) haven't known when to stop - and it would be a tragedy if the 'clap for carers' initiative suffered from the same fate.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2020 by phil-b259

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

Oh come on Andy -

 

Bon Accord stated it had evolved into a political sleight of hand. When? By whom? It's appropriate to question something which has someone has stated as fact if there's no evidence. 

[Chris116]

1 hour ago, AY Mod said:

 

Bon Accord stated it had evolved into a political sleight of hand. When? By whom? It's appropriate to question something which has someone has stated as fact if there's no evidence. 

This NOT evidence in the accepted form but I saw a piece in one of the papers which was copied by Google news on my phone that indicated that the person who supposedly started the Clap for Carers had said that next Thursday should be the last one as it was in danger of becoming something political. There were a lot of "ifs" and "maybes" but it still points to some people finding that bandwagons are being jumped on. Personally I have joined in each week and was pleased to note that local church bells have started being rung the last three weeks. I find it totally wrong that people who do not want, for whatever reason, to join in are being pressurised. 

[Bon Accord]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Bon Accord stated it had evolved into a political sleight of hand. When? By whom? It's appropriate to question something which has someone has stated as fact if there's no evidence. 

 

Well in the first instance let's remember the premise behind the weekly clap: to show appreciation and support for those individuals both within and outwith the NHS who are having to deal with this crisis and work through it at risk to themselves, in the process keeping the country running and saving what lives they can.
I would suggest that if an individual who is outside clapping truly supports that premise then it stands to reason that as well as the physical act of support then a more practical follow-on is inevitable, e.g. observing the lockdown regulations both in spirit and in reality, following NHS advice on appropriate behaviours and acts and in short doing everything in an individual's power to help the NHS/carers through this national ordeal.
Most people out there are of course doing their practical bit in that sense whether they choose to clap or not.
However, as far as I'm concerned - and I doubt I'm far from alone in this view - anyone who goes out and claps and does not follow through with that aforementioned practical support is nothing short of a hypocrite and therefore doing so for their own ends. That is where the politicians come in.

If you really desire it, then I'll happily rattle off a list of why I think this event (and some others) are being manipulated by the government in an effort to distract from other matters, however some may consider that list to be very political and well outwith the usual permitted realms of comment in this forum.

Politics has always been a game of opportunity, however the past few decades has firmly embedded shameless opportunism into day to day politics as the political class changed from being for the most part 'signposts' to being mostly 'weathervanes' (with apologies to Tony Benn).

Phil's previous post was correct, and indeed I would consider it to be unrealistic not to think that political capital would not be made of such a national show of emotion.

You may disagree with me on this matter, however I would ask you to consider the words of Annmarie Plas, the Dutch lady living in the UK who initiated the whole event. Two days ago she was reported in the press as saying that she believes the clapping should cease this week after one final event on Thursday, her primary reason being the following:

"Without getting too political, I share some of the opinions that some people have about it becoming politicised. I think the narrative is starting to change and I don’t want the clap to be negative."

 

[AY Mod]

5 minutes ago, Bon Accord said:

why I think this event 

 

Therefore it's opinion rather than fact.

 

I am aware of what the instigator has asked but it's note her sole franchise to award. I know that some make a big show of it and yes, I know that some will breach the guidelines but previous posts intimated that everyone was doing it for the wrong reasons which is why I, personally, felt insulted.

[Colin_McLeod]

9 hours ago, Phil Parker said:

 

 

As for the pension thing - I worked for MAFF for 5 years. When they closed our office, all our pension records seemed to vanish in the mist. I know I wouldn't have built up much, but it would have been something. Still, I was one of the rubbish little people...

 

This government pension scheme finding page may be of help Phil.

 

https://www.gov.uk/find-pension-contact-details

 

[rob D2]

I don’t think everyone is doing it for the wrong reasons, but there is certainly pressure to do it. That’s what I find unnerving .

[Bon Accord]

2 hours ago, AY Mod said:

 

Therefore it's opinion rather than fact.

 

I am aware of what the instigator has asked but it's note her sole franchise to award. I know that some make a big show of it and yes, I know that some will breach the guidelines but previous posts intimated that everyone was doing it for the wrong reasons which is why I, personally, felt insulted.

 

With regard to opinion/fact, if the appalling debacle played out on TV this afternoon and yesterday evening in London isn't a case in point I'm not sure what is. I'm sure that at least one of those concerned will be outside clapping on Thursday for the benefit of the cameras.

John never suggested that everyone was clapping for the wrongs reason, simply that a darker side to the whole affair has presented itself, something that other posters have highlighted and indeed has the instigator of the whole campaign.

In this very thread there are posts from individuals decrying others who choose not to clap or at least are not visibly seen to (for whatever reason), effectively painting those people as some kind of awful human being. I'd say that they have every right to feel insulted or at least aggrieved about that.

Edited May 25, 2020 by Bon Accord