A troubled Bassett Lowke Mogul

[Florence Locomotive Works]

Hi all,

 

Im not sure if I should have started a new thread, but oh well. A few months ago I was given a BL lms o gauge live steam mogul, and it’s never run properly. I’ve had the valves and pistons out, looked at the quartering, and flushed out all the piping with fairly heavy duty degreaser. It runs sometimes, but only without oil in the cylinders, and has no power. Most likely do to the absence of oil, but with oil it hardly runs at all. (I use wet steam  oil). So if anybody has suggestions or has encountered similar problems, any advice is very much appreciated.

 

Thanks, 

 

-Douglas 

 

(It’s been cleaned a bit since the photo)

[PatB]

Might be worth establishing whether "they're all like that Sir". Some model steamers, over the years, just haven't been very good. Is the B-L Mogul one of them? 

I'm not saying it is, but in several years of sporadically looking up live steam stuff on the Web I haven't seen much on the Mogul, and it makes me wonder why. 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

13 minutes ago, PatB said:

Might be worth establishing whether "they're all like that Sir". Some model steamers, over the years, just haven't been very good. Is the B-L Mogul one of them? 

I'm not saying it is, but in several years of sporadically looking up live steam stuff on the Web I haven't seen much on the Mogul, and it makes me wonder why. 

As far as I know, they are pretty good performers. I’ve seen videos of them pulling 3-4 tinplate coaches on level track at some giddy speeds. But I don’t really know if that’s real proof of that though. 

 

-Douglas

[Happy Hippo]

although I've not had much experience with this type of loco, I would have thought that a sensible supply of steam oil to the cylinders would improve the performance:  at least make it easier to run.

 

As with all these cases, diagnosis of the problem just by a description is not always successful.

 

I always work on the principle that it is:

Either a steam issue,  which is anything from boiler to steam chest including lubrication, or

A mechanical issue; anything from the wheels up to the steam chest.

 

If it were my loco, Take the boiler, burner and smokebox off the frames and giver the chassis and valve gear the once over.

 

It shouldn't be a timing issue as the B/L mogul valve gear was of the fixed eccentric variety, with little in the way of adjustment needed.

 

Oil everything up, and put a dollop of steam oil into the steam pipe, then attach it to an air compressor and try and run it at around 20 psi.

 

Check it both forward and backwards and make sure the reversing valve is seated correctly on it's face as an ill fitting one will leak steam badly.

 

If you think the faces may not be a good fit, then daub some water and washing up liquid over it and run air through it, this will highlight whether the valve is leaking at all.   you can do the same with all the piston and valve glands and any other steam joint to see if they are leaking.   I've put whole chassis in a bowl of water by now to track down leaks, a bit like a bike tyre!

 

Since you've already had the valves and pistons out and reset the valve gear I think it's time to move onto the boiler. (You mentioned degreasing the pipe work, but did you rod it through with fine wire in case thers is any scale inside which might be causing a partial blockage?)

 

The loco has what is seen as a low pressure pot boiler, any loss of steam in the delivery system is going to have a detrimental affect on the running.

 

We need to look at the boiler control(s) the safety valve and whether the burner is creating enough heat to keep the boiler's steam generation up.

 

I usually hydraulically test the boiler, with the safety valve in place.  Now this is not a pressure test where the boiler is pumped over pressure to ratify it is safe, but just a gentle nudge of the pump to see if there are any leaks.  it also gives an indication of the working pressure of the boiler as the safety valve should lift at that point. 

 

Ideally if the loco is old then although it technically doesn't need a boiler test, as it's a toy, but it's worth getting one done.

 

If all is steam tight, then we can move onto the burner.

 

This is a simple bench test to find out whether the fuel flow is sufficient and the the wicks are not burned to a crisp.

 

The mogul has a vapourizing burner which is pretty good, so providing you have a good flow of fuel then it's down to the wicks.

 

there are two in the B/L burner, a pilot wick, and a fuel wick.

 

The pilot wick is the one you light, and the fuel wick, inside the burner upright, which does not and just lifts the fuel into the vapourizing tray.

 

As a matter of course, just replace both wicks with new ones and then run a burner test on the bench.

 

If that's ok, then re assamble the loco and see if there is an improvement in the performance.

 

 

[Florence Locomotive Works]

I would have done everything you said with the boiler and steam lines, except that the boiler was never designed to be removed from its pipe work, as there are no pipe unions, it’s all soldered together. I do think now  the problem is the safety valve being to week, as it leaks quite a bit. And since it’s a piston valve engine, the cylinder and valve chest are one casting, so the steam ports are very hard to check. As for the burner, I think it’s fine, I’ve replaced the wicks once already (my engine came with the original spares bag). So I’ve been thinking the best solution is to get a new safety valve for 15 psi (working pressure). That concerns me though, because if the safety valve is actually to week then the boiler might not actually be used too 15psi, but it is very difficult to perform a hydraulic test since one can’t block off the steam lines. The picture is off the permanently soldered manifold under the displacement lubricator.

 

thanks,
-Douglas

[Happy Hippo]

Thanks Douglas,

 

The only one of these I've seen stripped down did have pipe unions, so from what you are describing, they would have been an after market modification.

 

I think we're leaning towards the same conclusion of steam loss other than from the exhaust, which is critical in a low pressure toy.  (This is not a derogatory term but merely describes the origins of the loco as opposed to others from the  B/L stable).

 

Do you have the live steam book from the Gauge O Guild?

 

I don't have mine to hand at present, but there may be info on how to build a  better low profile safety valve.

[Happy Hippo]

I have now found the book  I mentioned earlier.

 

It was  made up from a series of articles the late Eddie Cook wrote.

 

From Section 9 onward, it deals exclusively with improvements to Bassett Lowke Moguls!

[Florence Locomotive Works]

4 hours ago, Happy Hippo said:

I have now found the book  I mentioned earlier.

 

It was  made up from a series of articles the late Eddie Cook wrote.

 

From Section 9 onward, it deals exclusively with improvements to Bassett Lowke Moguls!

Unfortunately I haven’t heard about that book, but it sound very useful though! Is it available online or do you have to join the guild to gain access? I’ve also made a horrific mistake yesterday. I was looking in the displacement lubricator to find the steam room inlet, found what I thought was it, but it looked very small. So in a frenzy I drilled it out, and did not turn out to be the steam inlet, (even though it was inline with the pipe) so there is now a very small hole in the displacement lubricator. 
 

Many thanks,

 

Douglas 

[Happy Hippo]

Hi Douglas,

 

I'm sorry to read of your drilling exploits.

 

The small hole you drilled out was probably the feed hole for the displacement lubricator.  A very small hole being drilled into the steam pipe that runs through the lubricator.  This hole allows steam to enter the lubricator chest where it then condenses; forcing a very small amount of oil back out into the steam flow and onward into the steam chests.

 

What will happen now is when you fire the loco up and run it, the lubricator will empty quite quickly.

 

Don't overly worry about it, as it's a curable.

 

You'll see the change as a lot more oil along top of the boiler when steaming as emulsified oil is ejected up the chimney.

 

The Eddie Cook notes are still listed as a Guild publication.  See:

 

https://www.gaugeoguild.com/general/guild_products.aspx

 

I don't know whether you need to be a member to buy, I would doubt it as it is available at any show the Guild publicity stand attends.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Happy Hippo

[Nearholmer]

I recommend that you join Classic O Gauge Forum, because there there is a huge thread about how to get these to run perfectly, with incredible detail of things like valve-settings, and a whole tribe of people who operate them successfully and are ever ready to diagnose ills and prescribe treatment.

[Florence Locomotive Works]

7 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

I recommend that you join Classic O Gauge Forum, because there there is a huge thread about how to get these to run perfectly, with incredible detail of things like valve-settings, and a whole tribe of people who operate them successfully and are ever ready to diagnose ills and prescribe treatment.

Many thanks to both of you,

 

-Douglas