Ex North London Railway 28 ' carriages sold to the LBSCR ?

[Stoat's Nest]

I have a question about ex North London Railway carriages sold to other companies, in particular to the LBSCR. According to London Road Models, that make three of these 28 foot long 4 wheelers, some were sold to the Brighton, but  they give no indication of the dates these transactions occured. I'm interested in the late Victorian/Edwardian period, between 1890 and 1910. I've never seen any photos of ex NLR carriage stock running on Brighton metals, so this comes as a mini revelation. I believe the NLR, which had running powers over a considerable mileage of other railways' routes, could have connected to South London routes via the LNWR from just west of Chalk Farm, then to Willesden Jnc and then south via Addison Road to the West London Extension line, but I'm not aware of any services related to these, if they existed. But what did the Brighton do with such vehicles, if they did indeed buy them?  To give you an idea of the type of carriages I'm talking about I've attached a photo of three NLR stock which had been sold and were operating in East Anglia, presumably to the Great Eastern. No date is given for the photo other than when the locomotive was purchased(1903).   Anyone know about NLR stock sold to the Brighton?  

 

Sorry about the absent photo but it's taking forever to upload and preventing me from posting this question. There's a photo on RmWeb - Castle Aching - Page 206 - Pre-Grouping - Modelling and Prototyping,  but it's all related to the M&GN railway or the IWR, unless London Road Models are confusing the IWR with the LB&SCR, there's no mention of any Brighton purchases.

Edited March 31, 2020 by Stoat's Nest

[corneliuslundie]

I suggest you ask Ian White, HMRS LB&SCR Company Steward, via the HMRS website. He has written three books on LB&SCR carriages.

Jonathan

[Tom Burnham]

It seems unlikely that the Brighton would have acquired second-hand North London carriages at that period.  For one thing, they would have needed to change the brakes as the North London used vacuum brakes (after it had had to give up the Clark & Webb chain brake) and the Brighton was a Westinghouse line.

Looking at R W Kidner's "Carriage stock of minor standard gauge railways", which gives a useful overview albeit some of the detail may have to be revised following subsequent research, the Midland & Great Northern inherited no less than 28 ex-North London 4-wheelers from its constituents.  That seems to be the only East Anglian line using ex-NLR carriages.  All the Isle of Wight companies acquired carriages econd-hand from the NLR at various times.

[Nick Holliday]

The LRM website quotes:

These coaches were built by the NLR in batches between 1880 and 1891, most lasting to become LNWR and eventually LMS property, with many still working into the mid 1930’s. A substantial number of all types were sold out of service to companies as diverse as the M&GN, NSR, GNoSR, GW, Cambrian, LBSCR, L&Y, NBR, MSLR, MC, LTSR, Isle of Wight, IoW Central, KESR, Etc.

I think the writer of this was either very confused or being disingenuous to try to sell the kits to as many unsuspecting buyers as possible. The carriage design with its cartouche on each door is very distinctive, and would be immediately identifiable in photos, yet no-one can produce any evidence to back up many of these claims. For all the main line companies cited there would be no reason for them to buy second-hand, outdated stock even though they may have been expanding at the time, as they had the resources to get new vehicles if required. Certainly this applies to the NSR, GNoSR, L&YR, LBSCR, NBR and LTSR, indeed the L&YR at around this time was selling off its superannuated 6-wheel stock to the Barry Railway. I cannot vouch for the Cambrian or the GWR but is seems similarly unlikely too, although they may have inherited very early ex-NLR coaches from acquired companies.  As for the M&GN, as Tom notes, they did have ex-NLR carriages, but they all dated from around 1864, described by one author as being "very second-hand" when bought in late Victorian years, rather earlier than the stock the kits represent. Similarly, the Isle of Wight railways had acquired their stock, second-hand, before 1887, so again, not the version in the kits.

I can only assume the MSLR refers to the Mid-Suffolk and not the Manchester Sheffield and Lincolnshire Railway, and as far as I can see they only had ex-Metropolitan coaches, and I have no idea what is meant by MC, perhaps Maryport & Carlisle?

 

 

 

 

Edited March 31, 2020 by Nick Holliday

[Tom Burnham]

9 minutes ago, Nick Holliday said:

I cannot vouch for the Cambrian or the GWR but is seems similarly unlikely too, although they may have inherited very early ex-NLR coaches from acquired companies. 

According to the RW Kidner book I mentioned, the Burry Port & Gwendraeth Valley Rly did acquire 5 ex-NLR 4-wheelers.  These were likely to have been taken over by the GWR at the Grouping, but I can't imagine they would have got far off the BP&GV line - quite possibly used on miners' trains.  The line had a very restricted loading gauge, and when the GWR built new carriages for it, they were to a non-standard design.

[Nick Holliday]

10 hours ago, Tom Burnham said:

According to the RW Kidner book I mentioned, the Burry Port & Gwendraeth Valley Rly did acquire 5 ex-NLR 4-wheelers.  These were likely to have been taken over by the GWR at the Grouping, but I can't imagine they would have got far off the BP&GV line - quite possibly used on miners' trains.  The line had a very restricted loading gauge, and when the GWR built new carriages for it, they were to a non-standard design.

I agree that the GWR and, possibly, the Cambrian Railways, had ex-NLR coaches on their books, via the back door, but the LRM citation says they "were sold out of service to ...", which is not quite the same thing.

[Tom Burnham]

Indeed, and I doubt if they would ever have been seen elsewhere on the GWR, although genuine GWR experts may be able to give chapter and verse...

 

[Stoat's Nest]

 Ex-NLR 28'  4-wheelers sold to the LBSCR - Conclusion

 

As a result of all the replies, full of considerable erudition on this topic and other information less germaine to the matter, can I now safely assume that the LRM website assertion that:

"These coaches were built ........  A substantial number of all types were sold out of service to companies as diverse as the ....... LBSCR ........etc. ", can be regarded as so much advertising hype or, in old fashioned terms, a total red herring?

Edited April 1, 2020 by Stoat's Nest

[IWCR]

The Isle of Wight Railway did buy seven ex North London Railway carriages in 1898, these were 27' over headstocks and built circa 1864.  The Cowes and Newport Railway had eight from new, these were not actually NLR owned but a batch of vehicles built specifically for the Island as an add on to a NLR order (the NLR engineer also was the IWCR engineer at the time), these were known as the Martin stock.  Later in 1880 the Isle of Wight Central Railway had three second hand NLR carriages. Both IWR and IWCR stock ran on the line from Ryde St Johns to Ryde Pier  which was a LBSCR / LSWR jointly owned line.  The Freshwater Yarmouth and Newport Railway later had one off the IWCR vehicles second hand.

 

Pete

 

[ChrisN]

Just to conclude, the Cambrian did not buy any of these coaches.  Their own coaching stock was able to be in a good enough dilapidated state without buying from elsewhere.  

[Compound2632]

The LNWR, once it had taken over the NLR and provided more modern stock for some of the latter's services, did make use of rakes of NLR carriages for excursion trains and the like. I've seen a photo relatively recently but blowed if I can remember where.

[ianmaccormac]

Is this what is being talked about or are these something else altogether?

[Compound2632]

Just now, ianmaccormac said:

Is this what is being talked about or are these something else altogether?

 

Those are altogether much more ancient. They have a Wright of Saltley / early LNWR look to them.

 

The NLR carriages under discussion look like this - a very distinctive style of panelling.

 

 

[Edwardian]

I think I may be able to explain why the, entirely reputable, London Road Models has made this claim.  I believe that they have misread a section of R W Kidner's Carriage Stock of Minor Standard Gauge Railways (Oakwood press 1978).

 

NLR stock was sold to all manner of minor and Light Railways.  The only mainline company that had any, so far as I've read, was the MGN, which apparently inherited 28 of them, though from which constituent I don't know and I think they went pretty quickly after the influx of MR and GNR coaches, or, perhaps even earlier; I've yet to see a picture of one running there, either before or after 1893.

 

Before working alphabetically through the various "minor" railways, Kidner has a section of his book entitled Ex-Main Line Stock, in which he summarised, under each mainline company, their coaching stock disposals, listing the minor lines that acquired such stock.

 

The last sub-heading is North London Railway, and I reproduce that section below.  It will be seen that the last paragraph appears to be part of the NLR section - there is no further sub-heading such as "Other Companies", or even a space between paragraphs - so the layout makes it look like this is part of the NLR section.  I suggest that it is not, however, and is, rather, a summarised list of other mainline companies that made limited disposals of stock to second users and is not, as LRM seem to have taken it to be, a list of mainline companies that acquired NLR stock for themselves.  Plainly they did not.

 

As the text says "Small numbers of carriages were also sold for further use from ..." [emphasis added]

 

[Compound2632]

I think that just about wraps it up. Excellent library work. 

 

But that's the first time I've heard an oval described as a lozenge, though admittedly many lozenges of the medicinal variety are oval. Eldritch. 

[Hesperus]

On 06/04/2020 at 11:52, Compound2632 said:

 

Those are altogether much more ancient. They have a Wright of Saltley / early LNWR look to them.

 

The NLR carriages under discussion look like this - a very distinctive style of panelling.

 

 

 

I love the way that as long as I wait long enough a prototype emerges for my bodgery,  I clicked that link and grinned massively as this is my light railway coachs.