MR Train on GWR metals?

[John Hubbard]

With out wanting to invoke rule #1 (my railway, my trains etc), is there a plausible reason for having a  MR loco and rake of carriages running over GWR metals?   

The period in question is 1900 to 1913, and the GWR metals are somewhere down Exeter way.

Could I have a holiday special for example?

Thank you for your suggestions.

[Miss Prism]

I can't recall seeing a pic of a Midland loco west of Highbridge.

 

[Harlequin]

Imaginary exchange trials?

 

[John Hubbard]

@Harlequin I like the idea, and better than rule 1.   Thank you.

 

[Quarryscapes]

If it was during WW1 you can run just about anything anywhere...

[kevinlms]

David Jenkinson was obviously well known for his LMS and later Midland layouts. For these layouts based on The Settle & Carlisle Railway, he built locos and trains that ran on the line.

But he still had what he called his 'funny trains' and built and ran them, because he liked them, no other reason.

 

I reckon if it's good enough for him...

[Il Grifone]

50 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Imaginary exchange trials?

 

 

They showed the LNWR how to do it. Why not the Midland?

 

Coaches are possible (through workings), but locos unlikely.

[The Johnster]

The nation was pretty militaristic in those days, and a troop special would be a good reason to have a Midland rake in the Exeter area, though I doubt you would’ve seen a Midland loco downline of Temple Meads.  Even Highbridge would have seen Blue S&DJ locos rather than Crimson Lake Midland ones. 
 

In the case of a through working with Midland stock to a destination in the Exeter area or further west on the GW (or LSW), the Midland loco would come off at Temple Meads and be replaced with a GW loco. Sorry, but it looks like you are going to have to invoke Rule 1!
 

 

[Bulwell Hall]

Whilst it wasn't Midland Rly and it wasn't in the Exeter area I once saw a photograph of a GCR 'Jersey Lily' 4-4-2 in full GCR regalia on Weymouth GWR loco shed probably pre-1914.  I've no idea why it was there but it did at least prove that pre-grouping locos could wander off their own system for considerable mileages.

 

Gerry

[The Johnster]

Interesting.  The GC was more involved with the GW, having a joint line with it through High Wycombe and participating in the running of several through services such as the 'Port to Port Express', Barry to North Shields, which may partly explain the Jersey Lily at Weymouth; I very much doubt if any other Atlantic ever visited the town.  OTOH, the GW and Midland were bitter rivals and had to set up an independent joint committee to run Temple Meads, which makes the appearance of a Midland loco around Exeter even more unlikely than the very unlikely it already is...

[Steamport Southport]

Details of the C4 here,

 

Quote

The first C4s were allocated to Gorton and Neasden, to haul the London to Manchester express trains. Reciprocal excursion running rights existed between the GCR and the Great Western Railway (GWR) during 1904, and C4s operated a number of excursions to places such as Weymouth, Weston-super-Mare, and Plymouth. A C4-hauled working from Manchester to Plymouth via Banbury and Bristol, set a British record for the longest through working. This would last over twenty years, until the East and West Coast London to Scotland express services would start.

 

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/C/c4.php

 

 

 

Jason

[John Hubbard]

Thank you for the really helpful suggestions.  On the plus side I can sneak the carriages on to the layout as a through working and also have an excuse for some nice LNWR at some point.  The MR loco will need to run under spurious 'exchange' conditions or simply rule 1.   Fascinating detail regarding GC locos on GW though, thanks for that.

[Nick Holliday]

I don't know if this has any relevance to the current discussion but Wikipedia says:

In the UK the pre-nationalisation railway companies standardised around systems operating on a vacuum of 21 inches of mercury (533 Torr; 71 kPa), with the exception of the Great Western Railway, which used 25 inHg (635 Torr; 85 kPa). An absolute vacuum is about 30 inHg (762 Torr; 102 kPa), depending on atmospheric conditions.

This difference in standards could cause problems on long distance cross-country services when a GWR locomotive was replaced with another company's engine, as the new engine's large ejector would sometimes not be able to fully release the brakes on the train. In this case the release valves on each vehicle in the train would have to be released by hand, before the brake was recharged at 21 inches. This time-consuming process was frequently seen at large GWR stations such as Bristol Temple Meads.

I wonder if this relatively minor problem might have encouraged the continued use of the non-GWR loco to take the train to its destination. I've probably got it all wrong, but it might be a plausible reason why the MR loco has strayed into foreign territory.

Edited April 2, 2020 by Nick Holliday

[Siberian Snooper]

A GW loco, would have no problem taking the Midland coaches forward to the destination, but when the train returned and the Midland loco took over the strings would need pulling as the Midland engine would be unable to release the brakes. On a rail tour back in the '70s, from Shrewsbury to Newport was king hauled and one coach didn't get it's strings pulled at Newport and the coach had to be shunted out at Bristol with flats on all the wheels. 

 

 

[John-Miles]

The Midland worked specials to Weston, possibly with a pilot man but I suspect they had crews who were passed for the route. Interestingly, the GWR had a station which was only ever served by Midland trains at Stoke Prior just south of Bromsgrove near the junction with the line to Droitwich.

[The Johnster]

It also had two in Cardiif, Riverside and Clarence Road, served only by Barry Rly and TVR passenger trains. 

[tomparryharry]

Military troop train, with Midland crew, Western inspector and/or pilotman. Royal engineers on the footplate? possibly. The Boer war (and earlier) certainly made significant demands on the railway network, especially those networks that covered the country. 

 

The Royal navy was a heavy user of trains, not least to transfer ships company, from training area to dockyard. Jackie Fisher was building up the Dreadnought fleet, and it all needed manpower, every one.... A train chartered to convey His majesty's naval compliment would depart and arrive from anywhere in the UK, 

 

Google Churn camp....

Edited April 2, 2020 by tomparryharry
Sorry- slight memory loss there!

[MartinWales]

Now if it was circa 1923 and in Mid Wales,you could have used the Hereford Hay & Brecon

[The Johnster]

1 hour ago, MartinWales said:

Now if it was circa 1923 and in Mid Wales,you could have used the Hereford Hay & Brecon

By means of which the LMS accessed it's ex Midland network in Swansea over the Neath and Brecon, which had been absorbed by the GW.  It had to access the Hereford Hay & Brecon route by means of running powers between Worcester and Hereford which the Midland only used for this purpose and not for traffic, though they'd have been within the terms of the running powers to run through trains by that route.  Presumably the Midland did not consider that a through Birmingham-Swansea service was worth the bother, given that the GW and LNW had already established routes, and they were probably right.  The HH&B was sponsored by the Midland, and used running powers over the Brecon and Merthyr between Talyllyn Jc and Brecon, another railway absorbed by the GW.

 

 

[kevinlms]

At least  the GWR & Midland had something in common. They both had the driver on the RHS!

[Bulwell Hall]

22 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

Details of the C4 here,

 

 

 

https://www.lner.info/locos/C/c4.php

 

 

 

Jason

That really is most interesting - I didn't know that.  You truly do learn something new every day!

 

Thanks very much.

 

Gerry

[johnofwessex]

Didnt a C4 get stuck on the South Devon Banks as the driver refused assistance?

[Steamport Southport]

7 hours ago, johnofwessex said:

Didnt a C4 get stuck on the South Devon Banks as the driver refused assistance?

 

Wouldn't surprise me as they were apparently underpowered for their size. They went back to 4-4-0s for future express passenger locomotives with the D10 and D11 Directors. Then most of their duties were taken over by B17 Footballers.

 

 

Jason

[The Johnster]

An underpowered Atlantic would be a cert to fail on the South Devon banks (not sure the French 3, or the Saint or Star Atlantics, were allowed down there without assistance,).  Can't think of a 1 in 36 anywhere on the GC main line, even over Woodhead; Worsborough was not part of the passenger route,

[DCB]

I don't believe a  Midland loco ever got to Devon,  A complete Midland train would be unusual    but Midland through portions af several coaches were common in the 1930s so I suppose they would have been in the 1900s

Often Midland coaches were attached to GWR Paddington to Devon trains at Temple Meads.

Temple Meads as a South West/North East engine change point continued into the 1960s as Diesel Hydraulics came off there and steam locos continued to Birmingham.

The GWR Gloucester to Bristol services worked over the Midland line, both (express) passenger and (through) freight  and I believe the Cheltenham to Gloucester line, (double line pre 1940) was GW/MR joint.    I can't think of any other GW / MR joint main lines.

I suspect the GCR through runs were simply a PR stunt. they may have had problems attaching a pilot as the GWR used greaterr Vacuum than the GC. 

Midland locos worked over the GWR Chelteham to Kingham branch as far as Andoversford where they joined the MSWJR to Salisbury Plain and Southampton.