Birmingham Bull Ring

[brumtb]

Birmingham Bull Ring is a joint Great Western and Midland Railway station on the south side of the city and at the centre of a complex of joint lines serving the city.

Bull Ring is a little to the west of where the GWR Moor Street station is in reality.  Bull Ring was developed as both companies were experiencing overcrowding in their principal stations, Snow Hill and New Street.

Bull Ring and its associated lines give the Midland access from the west via the Birmingham West Suburban line, bypassing its Central Goods depot and via links with the GWR from the Camp Hill line to the south east.  There is also access to Central Goods from the east easing congestion around the New Street lines.

The network of joint lines to the south east includes Digbeth and Deritend stations, both being jointly accessed.  Digbeth includes a small local goods yard and limited goods interchange sidings for onward movement to Central Goods.  Deritend also has interchange sidings and access to a canal basin operated by the Birmingham Canal Navigations Company.

Modelled traffic is therefore local passenger trains of both companies, local goods and trip workings across the Birmingham area including some LNWR activity, parcels and perishables for the city markets.  The layout is set broadly in the late pre-grouping period but the idea is to an impression of the times rather than be too tied to reality!

It is a work in progress and hopefully will keep me occupied for many years to come as age takes its toll and ability reduces!

PS:  Some of the above fiction may well become fact in the coming decade with the reopening of passenger stations on the former Midland Camp Hill Line and the proposed Bordesley Chord to allow trains off that line direct access to the former GWR Moor Street station.

 

 

I like to think there are echoes of the old Birmingham Bull Ring market hall!

 

 

Class 39xx 2-6-2T prepares to leave with a Stratford upon Avon line train.

 

Edited December 14, 2022 by brumtb
Replaced photos

[Clearwater]

Duplicate

Edited April 1, 2020 by Clearwater
Realised had asked the q elsewhere!

[ChrisN]

Tony,

Well another Pre-Grouping layout and you seem to be quite a way on with it.  It looks well done so far.  Have you got a track plan?

 

I like the 39xx.  I have not come across this class before and can find no article on it on the web.  greatwestern.org has nothing on it, but then it has nothing pre 1902, and Wikipeadia has nothing either.  It is interesting as it is so different.

 

Do the trams work?

[Joseph_Pestell]

10 minutes ago, ChrisN said:

Tony,

Well another Pre-Grouping layout and you seem to be quite a way on with it.  It looks well done so far.  Have you got a track plan?

 

I like the 39xx.  I have not come across this class before and can find no article on it on the web.  greatwestern.org has nothing on it, but then it has nothing pre 1902, and Wikipeadia has nothing either.  It is interesting as it is so different.

 

Do the trams work?

I am fairly sure that the 39xx Prairie featured in an RM article with drawing.

[ChrisN]

3 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

I am fairly sure that the 39xx Prairie featured in an RM article with drawing.

 

Thank you.  I have seen a drawing and on the build thread for this model there is a lot of information about it but there is nothing on the web sites where you would expect information.  On BRdatabase it has when they were built and when they were withdrawn and there are pictures on Warwickshire Railways.  It is a nice loco and build.

[brumtb]

2 hours ago, ChrisN said:

Tony,

Well another Pre-Grouping layout and you seem to be quite a way on with it.  It looks well done so far.  Have you got a track plan?

 

I like the 39xx.  I have not come across this class before and can find no article on it on the web.  greatwestern.org has nothing on it, but then it has nothing pre 1902, and Wikipeadia has nothing either.  It is interesting as it is so different.

 

Do the trams work?

Thanks Chris, yes I've been working on the layout for some time and generally going back in time as I go.

I'll have to work on a track plan, but it is along two walls of a 14' x 8' room with some pretty sharp hidden curves and lots of compromises!

I've always liked the 39xxs since the "Plastic Prairie" article in RM about 45 years ago' especially as they were a particularly Birmingham area loco originally and I'm Brummie by birth.

No I'm afraid the trams don't work, a step too far!

 

Tony

[Northroader]

The ‘3901’ class were a rebuild of some Dean Goods engines. With the opening of the North Warwickshire line there was a need for suburban tank engines, Swindon machine shops were at full capacity, and there were spare goods engines. So, the wheels, motion, cylinders off a Dean Goods were put in new frames ,saving the machine shop work, with new boiler, pony trucks, tanks and cab. The result was an inside cylinder 2-6-2T with a taper boiler, part Dean, part Churchward, and not regarded as a standard type like the later outside cylinder 2-6-2T, which makes finding information on them that bit harder. It does make up into a nice model, as here. Very promising start, get the popcorn out.

[BobM]

Will follow with great interest....

Regards always

Bob

[Regularity]

3 hours ago, brumtb said:

I've always liked the 39xxs since the "Plastic Prairie" article in RM about 45 years ago'

April 1976.

[brumtb]

23 hours ago, Northroader said:

The ‘3901’ class were a rebuild of some Dean Goods engines. With the opening of the North Warwickshire line there was a need for suburban tank engines, Swindon machine shops were at full capacity, and there were spare goods engines. So, the wheels, motion, cylinders off a Dean Goods were put in new frames ,saving the machine shop work, with new boiler, pony trucks, tanks and cab. The result was an inside cylinder 2-6-2T with a taper boiler, part Dean, part Churchward, and not regarded as a standard type like the later outside cylinder 2-6-2T, which makes finding information on them that bit harder. It does make up into a nice model, as here. Very promising start, get the popcorn out.

My 39xx was built around a Bachmann 45xx with cylinders removed, retaining the smokebox, boiler, firebox, assembly but otherwise building a new superstructure.  I know the driving wheels are a little undersize but to me, it is worth it to have an operational 39xx!

 

Tony

[Regularity]

5 minutes ago, brumtb said:

39xx

3901.

[Edwardian]

On 01/04/2020 at 16:40, brumtb said:

Birmingham Bull Ring is a joint Great Western and Midland Railway station on the south side of the city and at the centre of a complex of joint lines serving the city.

Bull Ring is a little to the west of where the GWR Moor Street station is in reality.  Bull Ring was developed as both companies were experiencing overcrowding in their principal stations, Snow Hill and New Street.

Bull Ring and its associated lines give the Midland access from the west via the Birmingham West Suburban line, bypassing its Central Goods depot and via links with the GWR from the Camp Hill line to the south east.  There is also access to Central Goods from the east easing congestion around the New Street lines.

The network of joint lines to the south east includes Digbeth and Deritend stations, both being jointly accessed.  Digbeth includes a small local goods yard and limited goods interchange sidings for onward movement to Central Goods.  Deritend also has interchange sidings and access to a canal basin operated by the Birmingham Canal Navigations Company.

Modelled traffic is therefore local passenger trains of both companies, local goods and trip workings across the Birmingham area including some LNWR activity, parcels and perishables for the city markets.  The layout is set broadly in the late pre-grouping period but the idea is to an impression of the times rather than be too tied to reality!

It is a work in progress and hopefully will keep me occupied for many years to come as age takes its toll and ability reduces!

PS:  Some of the above fiction may well in the coming decade with the reopening of passenger stations on the former Midland Camp Hill Line and the proposed Bordesley Chord to allow trains off that line direct access to the former GWR moor Street station.

 

I like to think there are echoes of the old Birmingham Bull Ring market hall.

 

Class 39xx 2-6-2T prepares to leave with a Stratford upon Avon line train.

 

Great stuff!  More pictures would oblige us still further.

 

I note the 1920 Birmingham tram as God and KeilKraft intended (I've just spent the morning chopping two of them into pieces).

 

Love the 3900, what a great conversion.

[melmerby]

Tyseley:

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt2388.htm

Some more info:

http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=126262&type=S&page=alloc

[brumtb]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

 

Great stuff!  More pictures would oblige us still further.

 

I note the 1920 Birmingham tram as God and KeilKraft intended (I've just spent the morning chopping two of them into pieces).

 

Love the 3900, what a great conversion.

Thanks for your kind comments, more pictures will follow as I progress the layout.

The Keilcraft "1920" Birmingham Tram is a 4 wheeler with open balconies and the 1920 trams were bogie vehicles  from what I read in http://www.robertdarlaston.co.uk/Trams.htm so it can probably be taken to be a pre 1913 tram.

I must admit I'm no expert but it pleases me to go along with that assumption!

 

Tony

[Northroader]

.the other problem with Brummie trams is they were 3’6” gauge, still, if it’s blue and cream, it looks good.

[Guy Rixon]

Tony,  could you explain the ground levels, please? I'm interested in how the joint line is woven into the other railways. I know that Central goods must be above rail level in New Street, since its approach line climbed away from the West Suburban, so does the Bull Ring line dip to meet the MR lines into New Street, or does it meet them where they've climbed onto their viaduct near the Proof House? And how does it get past the GWR line to do either of those?

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, Guy Rixon said:

Tony,  could you explain the ground levels, please? I'm interested in how the joint line is woven into the other railways. I know that Central goods must be above rail level in New Street, since its approach line climbed away from the West Suburban, so does the Bull Ring line dip to meet the MR lines into New Street, or does it meet them where they've climbed onto their viaduct near the Proof House? And how does it get past the GWR line to do either of those?

I think we have to assume Brum is flatter than it actually is.

e.g. Central goods is much higher than New Street Stationwhich itself is below street level on the North, East and West Sides but at street level on the South side.

Moor Street Station is of course right over the Eastern tunnel into New Street itself but below Moor Street at it's Northern end but on a high viaduct at it's Southern end:

https://goo.gl/maps/Rov8agAfmND4xyaWA

 

https://goo.gl/maps/8CDGMdFJQpyBkgYh6

Edited April 4, 2020 by melmerby

[brumtb]

 

On 04/04/2020 at 17:21, Guy Rixon said:

Tony,  could you explain the ground levels, please? I'm interested in how the joint line is woven into the other railways. I know that Central goods must be above rail level in New Street, since its approach line climbed away from the West Suburban, so does the Bull Ring line dip to meet the MR lines into New Street, or does it meet them where they've climbed onto their viaduct near the Proof House? And how does it get past the GWR line to do either of those?

Hello Guy

In my world the GW and Midland lines meet at Bordesley where a chord from the Camp Hill line connects with and runs alongside the GW line to Moor Street (Bull Ring) and then continues on to Central Goods and the West Suburban.  Similar to the current proposals shown below, as far as Moor Street, anyway.  With a hefty dose of wishful thinking!

Edited December 14, 2022 by brumtb
Replaced photos

[Guy Rixon]

Ah, OK, so this contra-factual line is all south of the New Street east approaches. And there is probably a hefty gradient up to Bull Ring. Or else the connection with the Snow Hill line is nearer Bordesley than the Moor Street proposal shown, allowing the Bull Ring line to climb above the main line over a mile or so.  

[brumtb]

Hmm, contra-factual, well, not entirely made up but certainly fictitious.

I'll happily follow Mark Twain, "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" but it can't even be proved that he said it.  Which is somehow fitting!

I've always envisaged that the GW/Midland connection was much nearer to Bordesley, indeed, its only relatively recently that the I saw the diagram of the modern proposals.  

Tony 

[melmerby]

Looking at some OS maps the track level at New Street Station looks to be approx 385' (There's a spot height at the junction of Hill St & Navigation St. of 407')

Moor Street track level looks to be at about the same height as New St. track level at around 385' or so.

Central Goods is above 425' so you are looking at a climb of about 40' in 3000' from Moor Street level in 1000 yards or 1 in 75

If you start back at Bordesley you can add another 1000 yards, so a moderate 1:150 gradient but you need level track at the station so it would be a steeper climb (say 1:100) followed by the level station, then another 1:100 to Central Goods.

[Guy Rixon]

"Contrafactual" is the polite term used by historians for alternate histories and "what ifs".

[Regularity]

20 minutes ago, Guy Rixon said:

"Contrafactual" is the polite term used by historians for alternate histories and "what ifs".

Literally “against the facts”, but not indicating that we move from reality to “what if”, back to reality, then to (another?) “what if”, which is what the recent American usage “alternate” means.

I think, being English, you may mean “alternative histories”, or better yet, “alternatives to history”?

[Edwardian]

We lawyers have taken to referring to "counter-factual" scenarios to show how something may have played out but for the occurrence of whatever we are arguing about. 

[Regularity]

2 hours ago, Edwardian said:

whatever we are arguing about

Hopefully the case in hand, but frankly m'lud...