00-SF Inset track & Points - beginners questions

[DavidBird]

I'm considering finally making a start on the "Scalescenes Industrial Boxfile".

 

But I'm intending to use 00-SF (or EM-2 if you prefer), so hand-built points, with inlaid track in the "concrete".  I've not tried hand-built track before, but I have played about with Templot for designs.

 

Before I actually place an order with C&L, I have a few questions.

 

Am I better, as a first attempt, with soldering rail directly to copperclad sleepers or glueing chairs to plastic sleepers? My thought is soldered track may be easier to adjust if necessary by unsoldering a single joint, but impossible once glued chairs have set.  Appearance is not an issue as the track is to be inlaid.

 

Or should I, as a very first attempt, try a standard B6 point kit?

 

If I am better using soldered track, what thickness sleepers should I use to match up in height with a length of non-inset plain track?

 

Which sleepers are essential in the points and which can be left out - if any? As before apperance is not an issue.

 

How should I approach making fully checkrailed track, both in the points and on plain line?

 

Thanks

 

 

[Siberian Snooper]

I would use soldered construction for the first few attempts, more than likely the first one may end up in the bin. It doesn't really matter whether you construct a bog standard turnout or use a purpose designed template.

 

I am in the process of building a layout that will have inset track, I am planning on using tiling grout for the infill. My method will be to cut some 1mm plasticard strips equal  to the railhead, for the flangeway and fill the space with the grout and once set, remove the strips for the next section. I'm hoping that the grout will shrink a bit to allow the railhead to stand proud for rail cleaning. I've yet to workout a way of doing the switches.

 

 

[gordon s]

Hi David...Welcome to the 00-SF gang......

 

Personally I would solder the rails as a first off. As you say it will all be hidden anyway, but soldered construction is very easy to adjust. The thickness of sleepers depends on whose flexi track you will use. I use SMP so 1mm sleepers are perfect. Others may use C & L where the thicker sleeper base requires 1.6mm copper.

 

I suspect you could get away with ever other sleeper missing from the Templot print in turnout construction, but make sure you have the sleepers around the crossing vee all in place. You should be fine reducing the number of sleepers away from the critical areas.

 

I played around with fully check railed track in an old version of my own layout. I started with sleepers every 150mm or so. If doing it again, I would extend the sleepers both sides to provide support for the sheet balsa I used as an infill.

 

 

The next stage was to add the check rail on a 1mm gap.

 

 

Once satisfied all was well, I cut down balsa sheet to create the infill.

 

 

 

Sadly I never got any further as I decided the whole plan wasn't right for me, but hopefully you can get some ideas from these pics.

 

 

[martin_wynne]

3 hours ago, DavidBird said:

How should I approach making fully checkrailed track, both in the points and on plain line?

 

Hi David,

 

Inset track does not have "check" rails as such. Unless it is sharply curved, in which case the normal continuous check rail will be on the inside of the curve only.

 

Elsewhere, the extra rails play no part in controlling the running of the wheels. Their only purpose is to keep a clear flangeway and prevent wheel flanges being obstructed. As such, it is typically a fraction wider than the normal flangeway gap to avoid any wheel-back contact. For EM, 00-SF and DOGA-Fine I would suggest a 1.2mm flangeway for inset track.

 

cheers,

 

Martin. 

Edited April 3, 2020 by martin_wynne

[martin_wynne]

20 minutes ago, Siberian Snooper said:

I am in the process of building a layout that will have inset track, I am planning on using tiling grout for the infill. My method will be to cut some 1mm plasticard strips equal  to the railhead, for the flangeway

 

Hi,

 

Inset track does not have "check" rails as such. Unless it is sharply curved, in which case the normal continuous check rail will be on the inside of the curve only.

 

Elsewhere, the extra rails play no part in controlling the running of the wheels. Their only purpose is to keep a clear flangeway and prevent wheel flanges being obstructed. As such, it is typically a fraction wider than the normal flangeway gap to avoid any wheel-back contact. For 00-SF I would suggest a 1.2mm flangeway for inset track.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[Siberian Snooper]

2 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

Hi,

 

Inset track does not have "check" rails as such. Unless it is sharply curved, in which case the normal continuous check rail will be on the inside of the curve only.

 

Elsewhere, the extra rails play no part in controlling the running of the wheels. Their only purpose is to keep a clear flangeway and prevent wheel flanges being obstructed. As such, it is typically a fraction wider than the normal flangeway gap to avoid any wheel-back contact. For 00-SF I would suggest a 1.2mm flangeway for inset track.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

 

 

Thanks Martin,

 

I will add some thin card behind the plasticard.

 

 

[dasatcopthorne]

May I make a couple of comments please?

 

1. Go here in RMweb and look on 2nd Feb or thereabouts. You will see someone's go at inlaid track. I suggest you practice on a yard of Peco Bullhead.

2 Having built a lot of 16.2mm myself, I would suggest you use either the soldered construction (as it will be hidden) OR Wooden sleepers and plastic chairs. They stick just fine but if you make a mistake you can lift the chairs by sliding a scaple blade between the two.

3. Use thick sleepers where they can be seen as they allow a good covering of ballast.

4. For  the flangeways I bought 1mm steel 'gaugeplate' in strips 10mm x about 200mm or whatever you can get at a reasonable price. Plenty available on eBay or from model engineering suppliers. For curved track of frogs it can be bent.

 

Best of luck

 

Dave Smith

 

[Andy Reichert]

 

This is how I have constructed inset track. The set up shown covers several different stage in the development as I made various improvements.  The locomotive is Bachmann RTR unmodified and straight out of the box. The girder rail has a very close to scale, fine flange way, but, as you can see, can still operate satisfactorily with RTR wheels.

 

I don't recommend using ordinary rail without inner check rails, as the flange way then has to be larger than the normal running flange ways, to prevent the wheel backs rubbing or climbing the central divider surface.

 

Long wheelbase steam locomotives obviously will require the use of much larger minimum radii, but I have already been able to make 18" radii track and street turnouts for #4, #5 and #6 for more railway like applications. And adapters to join the street running track to all the variants of normal model railway track, hand-laid and commercial.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Andy

[Re6/6]

David, as an aside, although not 00-SF here's a bit of my P4 inset track

 

 

 

[Dave John]

I have a couple of sidings with Inset track and a cobbled surface. EM gauge.

 

I used code 75 bh on copperclad sleepers set about 50 mm apart but for the inner rails ( well cobble supports I suppose they are ) I stripped the rail off some old peco N gauge flexi. 

This has a finer head than code 75 and gives a better impression of U channel rails. 

 

One day I will find a clever way of cleaning the running rail without taking the rust off the inner rail. Maybe. 

[jim.snowdon]

U channel rails, by which I assume you mean grooved rail, as in tramways but with a wider and deeper groove for railway wheels, was relatively uncommon. More usual was the use of a bulb flat bolted to the running rail with cast iron spacer blocks to set the flangeway, or a second rail. If bullhead rail was used, that meant using more expensive check chairs throughout.

 

Jim

[Andy Reichert]

I thought some prototype and equivalent model pictures might be useful. 

 

 

Railway turnout from the street  into an industrial siding, using girder rail.

 

 

Model of the same type of girder rail points

 

 

Common type of cast girder rail street crossing, but set in granite Setts.

 

 

Set of model girder rail parts with similar cast crossing for a #6 turnout.

 

 

And a close up of model girder rail in model similar setts

 

Within reason, the rails and the insiet surfaces can be used for any of the common 4mm track gauges. 00, EM and P4.

 

Andy

 

 

[DavidBird]

Thanks very much to all for your replies.

 

Order with C&L duly placed.

 

Depending on how I get on I may just abandon the idea of fully-checkrailed track, as Martin says, it is only to retain the road surface and keep a clear flangeway, and instead just have the concrete of the fill stop short.

 

Thanks again.

[Andy Reichert]

If you are not using double rails, then a large enough inset rail flange way gap and running clearance is important as apart from adding friction, any rubbing (or even "kissing") can loosen fibres or grit/dust which can end up in your mechanism. So don't just guess it. Furry edged cardboard and plaster are the worst centre materials. Sheet plastic is probably the best.

 

 

Slaters 0442 Plastikard gives a good representation of Granite setts in 4 mm scale.

 

The way you calculate the minimum gap each side is Gauge max. - (Effective flange min + Back to back min + clearance).

 

If you are ever likely to use mixed types of wheels, you should use the widest gap resulting from the calculation for each type.

 

FWIW, Since 1975, I've tried every one of the methods mentioned and many others, but ended up using preformed girder rail because it is just so much less hassle and light years more realistic than the huge paved flange way gaps that result otherwise in the coarse scales.

 

Andy

[DavidBird]

Thanks all.  I've ordered one of these from Eileen's Emporium...

https://eileensemporium.com/index.php?option=com_hikashop&ctrl=product&task=show&cid=2517&name=start-button&Itemid=189&category_pathway=1229

 

[The Evil Bus Driver]

On 06/04/2020 at 10:08, DavidBird said:

Thanks very much to all for your replies.

 

Order with C&L duly placed.

 

Depending on how I get on I may just abandon the idea of fully-checkrailed track, as Martin says, it is only to retain the road surface and keep a clear flangeway, and instead just have the concrete of the fill stop short.

 

Thanks again.

Maybe it's worth asking Andy Y how he did his on Keyhaven Quay, I know he used a foam to make the concrete next to the track but ordinary track and cork and kept the turnouts uncovered. The effect was amazing, however.

[jim.snowdon]

On 6 April 2020 at 10:08, DavidBird said:

Thanks very much to all for your replies.

 

Order with C&L duly placed.

 

Depending on how I get on I may just abandon the idea of fully-checkrailed track, as Martin says, it is only to retain the road surface and keep a clear flangeway, and instead just have the concrete of the fill stop short.

 

Thanks again.

Full size, the problem with doing that is that with the passage of road vehicles, the unsupported edge of the concrete just crumbles away. 

Oddly enough, that approach is still quite common for street trackage on tramways in the US, where grooved rail is used only used on the curves.

 

Jim

[Andy Reichert]

On 10/04/2020 at 06:49, jim.snowdon said:

Full size, the problem with doing that is that with the passage of road vehicles, the unsupported edge of the concrete just crumbles away. 

Oddly enough, that approach is still quite common for street trackage on tramways in the US, where grooved rail is used only used on the curves.

 

Jim

 

There are two types of girder rail. One with the flange guard flush with rail height and one with a higher flange guard height to act as stronger check rail on curves. Which makes it more visible.  As older poorly  funded systems went through maintenance for wear , double T rail was often used as girder rail replacement . particularly on curves. 

 

 

Girder rail and particularly high flange girder rail is a low volume production, and expensive, item. Many modern systems use double T rail on curves and turnouts from the outset.

 

Andy

[Red Devil]

I did this, albeit in EM...

Code 75 bullhead, 0.8mm sq N/S bar, 1.9x0.25mm N/S strip, road surface is scribed ready to use patching plaster.

[Re6/6]

Superb scribing.

[jim.snowdon]

On 11 April 2020 at 19:29, Andy Reichert said:

 

There are two types of girder rail. One with the flange guard flush with rail height and one with a higher flange guard height to act as stronger check rail on curves. Which makes it more visible.  As older poorly  funded systems went through maintenance for wear , double T rail was often used as girder rail replacement . particularly on curves. 

 

 

Girder rail and particularly high flange girder rail is a low volume production, and expensive, item. Many modern systems use double T rail on curves and turnouts from the outset.

 

Andy

I suppose it might be if you think in terms of only US production, but it's still a normal stock item in Europe, both the standard and heavy check versions.

 

Jim

[Brian Harrap]

Thought I'd show you this. P87 filled with tiling grout, setts hand carved. Many an operator not paying proper attention has found himself going the wrong way on this one. Part of my QUAI:87 layout.

 

Brian.

[Re6/6]

14 hours ago, Brian Harrap said:

Thought I'd show you this. P87 filled with tiling grout, setts hand carved. Many an operator not paying proper attention has found himself going the wrong way on this one. Part of my QUAI:87 layout.

 

Brian.

 

He means me!. Going up the wrong road will de-wire the tram pan!

Edited July 24, 2020 by Re6/6