A thread about the shed

[tomparryharry]

4 hours ago, chris p bacon said:

I'm not sure how much you intended putting in but just one set of braces per side is enough to keep it square, especially if you are going to use OSB either inside or out.  If you think about modern timber framed houses they just use the OSB and nothing else.

Looking good 

 

Thanks Dave. There is one set per end elevation, and 2 sets each on the longer run. You're probably quite right, but I didn't want to find out the hard way.....

[tomparryharry]

A quiet Sunday here, so I've put the caps on the roofing screws. I normally use a dab of mastic to keep them sweet.  The one problem I've had, is gaining access to the roof; the space behind is quite narrow. So,  I designed a little 'toy to help me along. It's basically  a demountable crossbar, which can be clamped to an upright. This crossbar, reaches out about 3 ', and is strong enough to support a ladder. The bracket portion sits either side of an upright (4x2" ) and is a comfortable sliding fit.  Pushing the bracket upwards to the soffit end, , 2x  4" G-clamps  hold the bracket, and crossbar, at the desired height.  It's strong enough to support a fat bloke up a ladder.... Once the task in question is completed, you can un-clamp the bracket, and the ensemble can be stowed away. 

 

Hopefully some progress this week.

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[The Johnster]

That thing looks a bit like some sort of medieval torture device, Ian!

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

That thing looks a bit like some sort of medieval torture device, Ian!

 Well, I don't use it often, but it can be torture....

[DougN]

I do find your bracing interesting as here in Australia we install speed or strap bracing which is a metal strap in a cross arrangement from under the bottom plate to over the top plate. And this is on each corner to both walls. As Chris P said the OSB can be used as sheet bracing. We also have noggins to every stud opening. I know the US have different ideas as well and clad the entire walls in OSB with no noggins. 

 

Another interesting arrangement is you needing to silicon up each of the roof teck screwes. Here in Australia we have the teck screw with a washer pre installed on the under side to seal up the hole. Regarding your leak at the ridge did you turn up each of the valleys of the corrugated to stop water being blown up under the ridge capping? 

 

Yoir sccafold has come down a lot faster than the project I am working on... then again it I should a 7 story building! The site manager needs to get it out of the way urgsently so we can finish the building off before Christmas. 

 

 

 

 

[tomparryharry]

Hello Doug. 

 

Yes, I have 20-odd sheets of OSB stood by, ready for use.  The braces within the walls are there  purely  to maintain square. I don't know what the quality of OSB is in Melbourne,  but over here...  The sheets do two things here, first, as you say, speed bracing; the second part is  what we call 'first fix' . On top of that is permeable house wrap, tacked on. Vertical battens are next, which provide a register for the horizontal cladding. I'm presently at the 'finish house wrap- to- vertical batten stage'.

 

My topography here dictates building on a slope. In addition, the weather is inclement ( right now, it's  wind & rain). Due to that, I subjected the roof to an 100% inspection, at close eyeball distance. The leak I found was due to one (yes, just one ) TeK screw not going fully home.  Like you, I also use silicone, and the washers here are, like yours, pre-fitted with a 2-part washer. I didn't turn up the the box profile cladding; there is a foam pre-formed filler strip which can go under the ridge capping. This helps to keep both wind, rain & insects out.    

 

Scaffolding? Oh yes! I had to await 5 weeks to get the damn stuff down. In the meantime, I ordered up some insulation for the stud walls.  "I'll bet that the scaffolders turn up, just as the insulation arrives..." Sure enough , 9am Tuesday morning, 2 scaffolding lorries, and a larger delivery lorry (insulation delivery ) all crammed into our turning circle. You've got to chuckle... 

 

Long story short. Yes, it is 'interesting' but,  it's an interesting location. I could have bought a flat-pack shed and be done with it. But I wouldn't have been entirely happy with it. Being a stroke survivor, I determined to build this with minimal outside help.  Mrs. Smith is a canny woman; she gives me help only when I need it, and then retreats back to the house.  What I'm working towards, is an insulated, weather-proof  place of solitude.  I would certainly agree with you that local conditions require local techniques.

 

Sorry for the rambling.  I'll try to get some more photos this weekend, both outside & inside. It's actually nice & dry in there, despite there are no walls  finished yet. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

 

Sorry Doug, I forgot! Some of the material used here is over-ordered, and on purpose. I hate a job going short, and, it keeps the quality up on the principal job in hand. If I find a 'dodgy' length, I can substitute without fuss or bother.  The braces you see are left over stock.  

 

Edited October 24, 2020 by tomparryharry
Added text.

[Harlequin]

Hi Ian,

 

If you used the OSB on the inside of the studs it could be both the bracing and the interior wall surface. Saves cladding both sides of the studs - so long as you're willing to put up with raw or painted OSB inside...

Then just tack the membrane to the studs outside, covering the insulation, batten and rain screen.

 

[tomparryharry]

2 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi Ian,

 

If you used the OSB on the inside of the studs it could be both the bracing and the interior wall surface. Saves cladding both sides of the studs - so long as you're willing to put up with raw or painted OSB inside...

Then just tack the membrane to the studs outside, covering the insulation, batten and rain screen.

 

 

Hello Phil,

 

I studied your timeline photos very carefully. And, more importantly, I would have followed down your path. However, a chance conversation with my nephew recommended  that I go down the  OSB- Tyvek - batten - cladding route.  Inside, there is 100mm  (95mm ) kKngspan, with fire graded plasterboard.  He (nephew) does this for a living,  so I bowed to his better knowledge.  Also, he pointed out that I'm building out, whereas i would have been building in. But for that, I would have followed your example, but with a suspended floor, and a pitched metal roof. 

 

One departure I made, is your use of Rockwool batts. "Ah, that's what he's done..." However, I obtained some kingspan at a highly advantageous price, so it replaced your choice of insulation.  The tin roof was a given; I would have gone for flat roof, and I've  done those, but the locality dictates a pitched tin roof, under sark.  Like you, my walls are made almost exactly like yours, just changed to suit the local conditions.

 

Cheers,

Ian.  

 

 

[Harlequin]

5 minutes ago, tomparryharry said:

 

Hello Phil,

 

I studied your timeline photos very carefully. And, more importantly, I would have followed down your path. However, a chance conversation with my nephew recommended  that I go down the  OSB- Tyvek - batten - cladding route.  Inside, there is 100mm  (95mm ) kKngspan, with fire graded plasterboard.  He (nephew) does this for a living,  so I bowed to his better knowledge.  Also, he pointed out that I'm building out, whereas i would have been building in. But for that, I would have followed your example, but with a suspended floor, and a pitched metal roof. 

 

One departure I made, is your use of Rockwool batts. "Ah, that's what he's done..." However, I obtained some kingspan at a highly advantageous price, so it replaced your choice of insulation.  The tin roof was a given; I would have gone for flat roof, and I've  done those, but the locality dictates a pitched tin roof, under sark.  Like you, my walls are made almost exactly like yours, just changed to suit the local conditions.

 

Cheers,

Ian.  

 

 

Fair enough. I don't understand the significance of building out or in but, fair enough!  (I can see your structure will be more fire-resistant than mine - my shed is more "sheddy" than yours.)

I chose rockwool to avoid using petrochemicals and to avoid creating microplastics when cutting.

 

[DougN]

Ian, my interest is from a professional side as i am a construction manager here in Melbourne. So in the uk I would be CIOB and RICS eligible. I find the regional differences and standards interesting. I have an interest in environmentally sustainable construction and ongoing passive initiatives. So well insulated, naturally shaded windows, passive changes are all very important. To the point i am interested in other countries views of what is normal can be useful. Australian houses have too many air changes per hour and not enough mandated energy efficiencies. So even a railway room can be improved. I would have loved to see a local product to me which is effectively corrigated fridge panels as roofs. This is self air sealing with no radiant heat gain or loss. 

 

Any how i am with you for a well sealed wall insulation of kingspan externally with battens and cladding will improve the external performance in the colder climate with little to no condensation issues. The Junctions at the top and the bottom of the walls is the area to seal to not lose/ gain temperature. 

 

One area that i am looking to insulate in my house is the timber floor with kingspan/ foam insulation. As i would need about 130m2 i just feel tired thinking about it... the walls arnt too bad but the ceiling could do with being re insulated. 

 

Any how this all takes away from modelling time.

Edited October 24, 2020 by DougN

[tomparryharry]

Corrugated fridge panels, you say?  A bout of Google, methinks.  If you have look at my earlier posts, I spoke about wooden sarked roofs. A lot of houses I've worked with have sarking. I like it because it adds a level of sturdiness, and also, as a method of temperature moderation.  I used a lot of 8x1"  treated boards for sark, which is normally  used as bottom boards on fencing. It's a case of application, I think. 

 

Condensation is a real bu66er in the UK.  Wood   will twist & warp in the blink of an eye. I prefer to use wood as a brace, because it's as liable to twist in the same planes as the parent material.  I haven't done it yet, but I will incorporate fans to limit the top & bottom excesses of humidity & heat.  Too hot above, say 20 degrees, or too wet, and the fans come on. OSB is ok, and most of us know & understand it, but unless it's kept absolutely dry, I'm wary of it.  

 

We have a suspended floor at home, which was very cold last winter 2018.  I got into the void, and infilled that with Rockwool, held in place by tacked wire netting. The rationale was to keep the insulation in place, and should any mice gain entry, they can't make a home in the netting.  Last winter was much better.  The air space around the shed top wall plate is currently open, and for a while, I'll leave it that way. It's dry under the roof, with enough airflow space to allow any drying out that takes place, until the walls are weather tight.  Once I close up the soffits, there will be some smaller vents included. Insulation between the rafter joists is either Kingspan or Rockwool. I've used both commercially.  The depth of beam here is 6" so I can get a good depth in.  Interior walls will be 12.5mm fire rated plasterboard.  There is a cost-effective supply down the road here,  so at least that's easy.  Nephew has strongly recommended fire rated; after all, it's a wooden building.  By the same thought process, all of the electrics will be surface mounted via industrial-rated metal conduit. Suspended floor insulation here will be a repeat of what I've done at home; I know it'll work. 

 

Starting this thread is by nature an open discussion. It's a two-way street. Some might take away a good idea, and others will pose questions. The questions bit are good for me: They allow me to respond, whilst thinking... "have I got that right?" 

 

Blessed rain.... Bah!

 

Ian.

[Barclay]

I know the weather has turned, but is all well down at the shed?

[tomparryharry]

2 hours ago, Barclay said:

I know the weather has turned, but is all well down at the shed?

Hello Stuart, thank you for the post. 

 

Yes, things are ok, thank you. I've spent far too much doing other things, I'm afraid.  That said, work has continued. The walls are largely boarded and sheeted.  I'm currently making a door for the shed.  In recent months, I've sold off a lot of machinery & assets that I didn't have a realistic option of completing, so a 'thinning out' exercise has taken place.  

 

I'll get some photos today. 

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[tomparryharry]

Hello Folks. A month? Surely not?  I've had some time out, as Mrs Smith has me 're-deployed'  on a couple of 'little jobs' ( her description ). Still, it helps on the Brownie point account...

 

The OSB sheeting has been completed, and covered with Tyvek-style building wrap. After that, normal roofing battens has gone on vertically to provide an air gap, betwixt wrap, and the horizontal cladding. I need to tidy up the building wrap in some places, principally around the door.  The soffits remain open, as the air throughput helps to dry out any water ingress, although this is minimal now. 

 

This weeks little job is making the door. I had a lot of offcuts from the roof framing process, and now it's paying off handsomely. The principal parts are 7X2" C16 planks, arranged horizontal. The back section is 4x2" (90x45mm ) uprights, and all bolted together with M16 coach bolts.  It weighs a ton... (about 115 kilos... I'll get more pictures tomorrow.  Once the door is finished, I'm straight on to the horizontal exterior cladding. The doorway is  nearly dead on South West, so if Mrs Jones  hangs her washing out in Swansea, we'll get it  here.....  

 

Some of my usual rubbish photos now...

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[tomparryharry]

Hi folks, just a quick update from here. Since last (whenever) I've been making the door.  In size & construction, it conforms fairly well to a Great Western Toad brakevan.  The horizontal slats  are half lap, squared off with 4x2" on the vertical. The coach bolts are some 16mm ones I bought in for a project that didn't happen.

 

The last couple of days, I've smelt something 'funny' in the sawdust about here, but I couldn't put my finger on it...  It turns out a neighbours cat likes to sleep in there ... Out!! Out!!  Woosh!  Woosh! It appears that it gains access via the soffit, which were open to allow an air gap whilst the work is going on. I planned this for a later stage, but thanks to the Piddling cat, plans change... 

 

Yesterday saw us close up the gaps between the trusses, again with offcuts of OSB left over from the wall work. However, that's only half of the job, with the other side left to do. 

 

More rubbish photos.... Mrs Smith is  now 'diverting' my labour, something to do with 'home improvements...'

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Happy Hippo]

Catpiss Court:  My least favourite of the 29xx Class

[Nick C]

Can I ask the experts on here a few questions about shed insulation?

 

I have realised I need to insulate mine - as I mentioned in another thread, I had a leak in the roof last winter, which resulted in it getting damp inside and the layout baseboards warping. As a consequence I've decided to demolish the layout (which was only at track stage anyway) and start again - and so I want to take the opportunity to do things properly and make the shed usable all year round.

 

It's a solid wood 'summerhouse' type building, with the whole structure built from interlocking beams roughly 2"x4", and an overall size of around 9' x 15', with bifold single-skin but double-glazed doors on one long side.

 

Am I right in thinking that foil-backed "celotex" type insulation is best for such a building? What thickness would people recommend?

 

I know I'll need to seal any draughts first (there's a couple of places where the beams have obviously shrunk a little as the timber has dried out, leading to small gaps on the windward side in particular) - what's the best stuff to use here - there's mention of caulking further up this page?

 

Both of the short sides have small round vents in them, near the ceiling - I'm assuming that I need to keep these open to let fresh air in? should I add tubes or similar to duct it through the insulation to prevent water getting between the timber and the insulation?

 

Do I need to leave an air-gap above the ceiling like I would if I were doing the house?

 

Finally, the current electrics are in tubular ducting around the walls - can I remove these and move them (I'd keep the circuits the same, just adjust the height to clear the baseboards/backscenes), or would I need to get a qualified electrician in?

 

There's some photos on my current layout thread here:

Many thanks!

 

 

[tomparryharry]

If I can suggest that your building is watertight-weather tight first. You wouldn't be happy to see your work undone. I spent a lot of time on the roof before I moved to the walls. Once you're satisfied with your roof, any gaps in the walls can be addressed.  Right now I'm working on the exterior cladding, which covers a building membrane on battens. This arrangement allows an air gap to keep the walls in a natural environment. Once that is completed, insulation here is 95mm Kingspan for the walls, cut to suit the profile betwixt the uprights. Any gaps or imperfections can be filled up with expanding foam.  I've just ordered some 150mm Kingspan for the gaps between the joists. Again, I'll use expanding foam as a filler. The air holes at the ends can, or should, normally left open, but if you've got water ingress, use a louvered vent to let air in & out. 

 

Insulation here is Kingspan: Some people won't use it because of enviromental concerns. I can understand that. An alternative is wool batts. Phil Harlequin of this parish has done a very neat job using wool, and there are one or two new builds I've seen with wool.  Being a miser, I could get Kingspan at an advantageous price, so it sort of made up my mind.    From a contractor viewpoint, it is easier to use, but it will normally be down to the client. The insulation values in both products are roughly in the same ballpark. 

 

Loft air gap? Yes, I would. Ventilation allows air to circulate, and it helps any humidity to dry out. Right now I'm closing up the gaps betwixt the roof trusses. Once I build the soffits, I will introduce vents there to allow a good air circulation, one every 2-3 metres if I remember. 

 

Whatever I'm posting here, please check it out. Dave Bacon of this parish is well worth sounding out, along with the myriad of RM  Webbers who've gone down this route before.  

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

[Nick C]

19 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

If I can suggest that your building is watertight-weather tight first. You wouldn't be happy to see your work undone. I spent a lot of time on the roof before I moved to the walls. Once you're satisfied with your roof, any gaps in the walls can be addressed.  Right now I'm working on the exterior cladding, which covers a building membrane on battens. This arrangement allows an air gap to keep the walls in a natural environment. Once that is completed, insulation here is 95mm Kingspan for the walls, cut to suit the profile betwixt the uprights. Any gaps or imperfections can be filled up with expanding foam.  I've just ordered some 150mm Kingspan for the gaps between the joists. Again, I'll use expanding foam as a filler. The air holes at the ends can, or should, normally left open, but if you've got water ingress, use a louvered vent to let air in & out. 

 

Insulation here is Kingspan: Some people won't use it because of enviromental concerns. I can understand that. An alternative is wool batts. Phil Harlequin of this parish has done a very neat job using wool, and there are one or two new builds I've seen with wool.  Being a miser, I could get Kingspan at an advantageous price, so it sort of made up my mind.    From a contractor viewpoint, it is easier to use, but it will normally be down to the client. The insulation values in both products are roughly in the same ballpark. 

 

Loft air gap? Yes, I would. Ventilation allows air to circulate, and it helps any humidity to dry out. Right now I'm closing up the gaps betwixt the roof trusses. Once I build the soffits, I will introduce vents there to allow a good air circulation, one every 2-3 metres if I remember. 

 

Whatever I'm posting here, please check it out. Dave Bacon of this parish is well worth sounding out, along with the myriad of RM  Webbers who've gone down this route before.  

 

Cheers,

Ian. 

 

Thanks Ian - while I was out there last night I found what I think is a new leak in the roof - either the felt has split or the "10 year roof seal" I got from Screwfix to fix the previous problem, didn't.

 

The building was built by the previous owner of the house and I think he did it "on the cheap" (as he did with a lot of other stuff...) and didn't do the roof properly - the first water ingress was around the nails holding the felt down. I think I'm going to rip off all the felt, treat the underlying timber (hopefully it's not started rotting yet!) and cover it with something proper. I'm not sure what to use though - my dad recommended box profile steel sheeting after using it on his, but I don't know how well that would work on a very shallow pitched roof?

 

 

[tomparryharry]

Hello Nick, 

 

Yes, felt won't last forever, sad to say. Your Dads recommendation is sound. I used box profile over the roof here. If you plan to keep the wood roof, it'll act as an extra layer of insulation.  If you want to trawl back over the thread, you will see what's been done here. Please note:- My project is still a work in progress. If you measure the width of your shed, see if you can purchase box profile which can cover the width (depth ) of the shed in one pass.  The old adage "The best joint is not having a joint" still holds true. 

 

Electricals. If you're not sure, get a suitably qualified electrician  to do the work. You've got a wooden building, after all.  If your electrician is any good (they usually are) he will be bang-up to date with the latest regs.  Worth every penny; IMHO. 

 

Cheers,

Ian.

[The Johnster]

Cats can be dissuaded with oragne peel I'm told, but you will then be subject to rodent attack, mostly rats but squirrels and mice can cause havoc as well, especially to unprotected cables.  If you've cleaned up the cat pee it's too late, as I recommend leaving the smell as it is.  You will be unaware of it after about a week or so, as it will have very largely dried up, but a very faint odour will still be discernable to other cats, which will avoid the area, and the cat who marked his territory with it, which will be content that this is still part of his domain and will not respray.

 

For further dissuation, I suggest water pistols.  Mr Moggy doesn't get really hurt, soon gets the message, but, above all, it's fun!

[37114]

Worth putting into youtube search "Ali Dymock" tells you everything you need to know about insulation and air gaps in his videos. I followed it to build this

[tomparryharry]

14 hours ago, The Johnster said:

Cats can be dissuaded with oragne peel I'm told, but you will then be subject to rodent attack, mostly rats but squirrels and mice can cause havoc as well, especially to unprotected cables.  If you've cleaned up the cat pee it's too late, as I recommend leaving the smell as it is.  You will be unaware of it after about a week or so, as it will have very largely dried up, but a very faint odour will still be discernable to other cats, which will avoid the area, and the cat who marked his territory with it, which will be content that this is still part of his domain and will not respray.

 

For further dissuation, I suggest water pistols.  Mr Moggy doesn't get really hurt, soon gets the message, but, above all, it's fun!

The door is in place now, so no more feline access. Thank you for the tip; I forgot about the scent aspect.  With electrics, the requirement is - will be, metal sheathed conduit. The rationale is to avoid cable damage (of any kind ) and if there is an electrical fault, any prospect of fire is contained within the conduit. 

 

Mrs Smith has cottoned on that I can work undercover, so the dynamic has changed here.  Now it's "we (  we? Surely, it means you )  need to get on with job X ".  Work has slowed down a lot but happily, not stopped altogether.

 

37114:- That is indeed a nice looking building. I know however, that if I built something like that, it would be commandeered for 'other uses' , such as a music room,  study, etc. In short, I'd be back to square 1.  This is a place of quiet solitude for me.  A place of your quality would invite people in, whereas I want to keep people mostly  out. I'm not antisocial per se,  but there are times when I need the solitude.  

 

Water pistols are a good idea. Can I have a water pistol with a .177 calibre?

 

Cheers,

Ian.

Edited December 20, 2020 by tomparryharry
Forgot a bit-again.

[The Johnster]

I will tell you the true story of a hot summer afternoon a quarter of a century ago, when I was sitting in the bar of the then Globe pub with the relevant squeeze of the time after some shopping in Albany Road,  It was a midweek afternoon, not much was happening, the only other customers being a group of  student's on another table, when in walked Bristol Tina.

 

Bristol Tina was a well known character around Cardiff, a prostitute, but the archetypical 'whore with a heart of gold' and generally well liked by everyone except wives when she chatted up their husbands.  She was unusual in that she was not a drug addict like most Cardiff street girls, and had willingly chosen the life because she liked it.  She was from Bristol (no sh*t, Sherlock) and claimed, with some pride and dignity, to be able to trace her ancestors in the profession back to John Cabot's time, but had crossed the wrong people over there and decamped to Cardiff.  I rather approved of her attitude; go get 'em, Tina.

 

Enough background; this scenario was far too quiet for Tina's liking, and after a few minutes propping the bar, she announces as follows 'right, you shower of sh*t, I want 50p from each of you, and we'll have some fun'.  This caused a short period of mildly alarmed glances between everyone, but Tina in this mode was not to be denied, and 50p wasn't much after all.  Money collected, 'right, I'll make like Arnie, I'll be back' and she flounces off out the door. Comes back about 10 minutes later with a carrier bag full of something, and disappears downstairs to the toilets.  General puzzlement ensues, but when she comes back up, she hands out loaded water pistols to everybody, including the barman. 

 

Now, as I said, this was a hot summer day, and within seconds a full on water fight was in progress, and passers by being 'got' by snipers.  It was brilliant fun, fair play chwarae teg nawr, inni' Tina.  I love it when off the cuff stuff like this happens! 

 

 

[Happy Hippo]

6 hours ago, tomparryharry said:

Water pistols are a good idea. Can I have a water pistol with a .177 calibre?

 

If you want .177 calibre than you might find that a short carbine is better. 12 ft lb of energy against the pistol maximum of 6.