Hornby Dublo 3 Rail - Peco Streamline Track for Shunting Layout

[Barks]

G'day all,

 

New member from Western Australia here and first post.

 

A few years back I was passed down a Hornby Dublo 3 rail collection of locomotives, passenger and freight cars, and track with controllers.  After sitting in the boxes for a few years, I decided to get them setup and running.  The first attempt at creating a layout was going reasonably for a while - the locos were working and I could get one of the controllers working (using a modern 15V AC power supply).  Alas, I made the silly mistake of thinking I could keep a 13ft x 6ft layout in the dining room and quickly used up the patience of the better half.  As such, it was packed up and put into storage until more room could be made in the house.

 

In the interim, I decided to make a 4ft x 2ft N scale layout to learn how to model.  That layout is almost finished (just road markings, people, cars and one industry to do) and so my mind has turned back to the Hornby Dublo rolling stock.

 

With the space we have in our current house, and the brief experience trying to do a larger layout, I've decided a switching layout is the best option for the time being.  I note that Dublo layouts are typically oval layouts with some small yards spread around but the overall size doesn't really fit my available space.  After playing around with some layout plans on SCARM with the Dublo 3-rail set track, I've realised that the set track is not quite what I want to use for a switching layout.

 

As such, after some searching online for H0 or 00 3 rail flextrack that doesn't turn up much information, I've started testing out some methods for adding a 3rd rail to the Peco flex-track.  Early signs are showing some potential but more testing and research is probably needed.  The biggest area on uncertainty is the strength of the connections after continued use, as my first try for soldering pins saw some failures after only a couple of cycles of locomotives running.  Below link is a short video of a quick test for those interested.

 

https://youtu.be/ukDrTBupaZo

 

Assuming I can settle on a method for attaching the 3rd rail that works, I have planned an 8ft x 2ft switching layout that's modelled on a wagon maintenance yard (with light locomotive servicing).  Attached is the draft track plan for anyone interested.

 

Anyway, that's my spiel for today.  Thanks for reading this far and I'm sure I'll have a look through the forums and hopefully contribute something to the group.

 

Cheers,

 

Barks

[D51]

Barks,

Have a look on YouTube for videos by Garry Hall.  He used to contribute a lot to RMweb too.  He uses Peco Setrack along with plastic chairs by C&L Finescale (www.clfinescale.co.uk) and fine rail for the centre conductor.  The chairs can be stuck to the Setrack with adhesive.  Peco flexible track is not suitable as no adhesive will stick to the polythene base.  Use Insulfrog points, Setrack or Streamline.  All Code 100 rail. 

 

Frank

Edited April 5, 2020 by D51

[gtis]

Hi barks 

try searching for Peco IL-120 100 conductor 

rail chairs 

I don’t know it they are any good on flexi track might have to use set track 

neil

 

[melmerby]

You can get add on stud contact which goes under the track with the contacts poking through the sleeper spaces.

https://peco-uk.com/products/stud-contact-strip-for-track

 

Not sure how well HD would work with that as the Märklin 3 rail locos have a longish slider for current collection.

[MikeCW]

As D51 noted, Garry Hall had an impressive three-rail layout based on Peco track, which is well worth finding on YouTube. His work inspired me to have a shot at something similar. I built a test track using Peco streamline points and flex track.

 

One of the points was insulfrog, the other live frog.  Both were well-used, second-hand items.

As you can probably see from the photo above, the third rail is normal Peco Code 100, attached by inserting copper-clad sleepers at intervals into the streamline track and soldering all three rails to the sleeper. Remember to cut insulation slots each side of the centre rail. I kept the third rail consistently centred by using a couple of crude jigs made out of MDF.

The third rail was attached to the points by a drilling the sleepers for small stationery staples and soldering the third rail to these. These were older Peco points with the over-centre spring in a housing on top of the sleepers, so I ground away the underside of the third rail where it crosses this housing.  Modern points won't require as much work.

 

The only mistake I made was bringing the third rail which starts from the toe of the point too close to the outside rails.  As a result, the pick-up shoe on some engines sometimes touched both and caused a short.  This is shown in the photo below with the yellow dot and was easily fixed by trimming a couple of mm off the third rail at this location.

I'd forgotten how simple three-rail wiring is.  The outside/running rails are all just wired up solid,  requiring some bridging wires where the two rail points are insulated, and all sections, siding isolation etc are controlled through the third rail.

 

I'm not saying that this is the only way, but it has worked for me.

[Barks]

Thanks for the great suggestions everyone!

 

I've found some Peco conductor chairs and code 60 rail which I'm ordering to test.  Hopefully they'll be strong enough.

 

I like the look of what Garry Hall has done so I'll have a look at his videos.

 

MikeCW, those staples are an interesting idea too.  I'll have to give that a try.

 

Lots of testing coming up!

[BR60103]

I thought about this at one point. I feel that you might use Insulfrog points and set them so that the unused running rail is dead where the collector shoe will go over it.

[DCB]

I think if you want switching with 3 rail you will have to do some work on the points, apart from the conductor rail.   You need to snip the wires from the rails beyond the frog and or the frog itself  so the rails are dead where the pick up shoe hits them, or the loco will stop dead as it shorts out. If you go 2 and 3 rail capable then you need some fancy change over wiring

 

3 rail is a good chance to use up old damaged points or make your own because you don't have to be so fussy about insulation or frog polarity.  Its also a good idea to short the running rails together as 3 rail mazak wheels are pretty lousy at picking up current

[Il Grifone]

Welcome to RMweb! 

 

"I've decided a switching layout is the best option for the time being."

That's how mine started!

 

 

To use stud contact, you would need a skate pickup. Märklin are available or the Dublo pickups can be modified*. Märklin use an all level system, but with flexible track the studs can be raised slightly so that the skate passes over the closure rails (1/16" was recommended back in the day). In any case, dead crossings/frogs should not be a problem with 3 rail.

Edited April 6, 2020 by Il Grifone

[melmerby]

10 minutes ago, Il Grifone said:

 

 

To use stud contact, you would need a skate pickup. Märklin are available or the Dublo pickups can be modified*. Märklin use an all level system, but with flexible track the studs can be raised slightly so that the skate passes over the closure rails (1/16" was recommended back in the day). In any case, dead crossings/frogs should not be a problem with 3 rail.

Peco's add on stud contact strip is available in two versions, one for plain track and one for points, I assume the one for points has a higher profile.

[Barks]

7 hours ago, BR60103 said:

I thought about this at one point. I feel that you might use Insulfrog points and set them so that the unused running rail is dead where the collector shoe will go over it.

 

I was thinking the same thing.  The test I've done so far is using an insulfrog point and that worked fine without modifications.  I was surprised at how much space I could get away with between the centre rail and the switch.

[MikeCW]

To clarify the way I wired the points on my test track above, the following photo may be useful.

 

Red dots are feed; green dots are return; mauve dot is isolated i.e. no power.  The drunken blue arrow is the insulation gap.

 

This "traditional" 3-rail wiring of turnouts is simplicity itself.

     All outside rails including frogs/common crossings, but with the exception of the point's switch and closure rails, are wired up solid - think the Hornby Dublo tinplate track base. The switch and closure rails are left "un-wired".

     With the point set for the diverging route above, the curved switch/closure rail (the upper one) is physically connected to the outside rail and energised - red dot.  The lower switch/closure rail is not physically connected (nor wired) and is electrically "dead" - mauve dot.

     On an engine coming from right to left, its third-rail pick-up shoes slide from the centre rail (green dot), over the dead closure rail and then continue on to pick up power from the next "green dot" rail.

     Relying on physical contact between switch and stock rail for electrical connection, unreliable in 2-rail wiring, is perfectly fine for 3-rail for, as seen in the example above, there is already a continuous feed to the locomotive's wheels - uninsulated on a  3-rail locomotive -  from the outside "red dot" rail at the bottom of the photo.

 

All isolation of sidings, creating track sections etc, is done only via the third rail.

 

My apologies if this comes across as "teaching Grandma...." or as stating the bleeding obvious, but I thought that a picture might be a useful addition to the discussion.

Keep safe

 

Mike

 

 

[Il Grifone]

The dead section is the reason it is necessary to connect the insulated side to chassis with 2 rail to 3 rail conversions (I find a pickup to one wheel is sufficient with HD track). I have considered using the switch of an isolating point to energise the closure rails (i.e. connect to the base), but decided it is easier to add the pickup to the locomotives.

[Barks]

I had a quick try at putting some staples into the sleepers and soldering to then on some test track.  It seems to be impossible to solder the track to the staples, and I made a complete mess of the solder, and the sleepers.  I thought I'd give up on that approach until I went to try and solder something else and realised that the soldering iron tip wouldn't tin the solder no matter what I tried. 

 

A quick trip to the local electronics store and a new soldering iron tip later made me think that I need to give it another try with the new tip.  So I've purchased some cheap second hand track and will try again.  I will say that despite the dodgy initial soldering job, the first attempt at soldering to the staples seems to have pretty good strength after a week or so.  Photos to come if the next attempt is not too embarrassing.

 

The Peco 3rd rail chairs and code 60 rail are supposedly on their way but I don't have a reliable ETA or tracking so may be a soon, or a while before I can check that out.

 

Cheers,

 

Barks