Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings

[Compound2632]

Please excuse insomniac posting.

 

The wagon list looks good except for the manure wagon - rather esoteric but the principal objection is that the first were built in 1894. The Mousa D299 is appropriate to the 1880s, as it has the 8A axleboxes; the Slaters D299 has the Ellis 10A axleboxes that came in c. 1890. The Slaters brake van is a candidate though the axleboxes need backdating from oil to 8A - easy enough by carving the plastic - the lower handrails want carving off, plus other refinements if you so wish. The Slaters covered goods wagon kit represents D357, of which some were built in 1892/3 but the bulk not until the early 20th century. In the 1880s, the standard covered goods wagons were similar in appearance but 12" less tall; they were few in number, only 550 built by 1887/8. You could quite happily get away with not having any covered goods wagons; in 1894 they were only 1.7% of Midland wagon stock.

 

In the 1880s, the principal merchandise wagon was the low-sided wagon, so you want lots of these - they should outnumber the high-sided wagons (D299 &c) by 2:1. The high-sided wagons are most likely in coal traffic. For coal traffic, you also want lots of dumb-buffered wagons, both private owners and ex-private owners in Midland livery - whitemetal kits from Roxey and 5&9 (scroll down to bottom of page). Only the ex-PO wagons and possibly D299 will have the large MR lettering - all other Midland wagons were only identified by their solebar numberplates at this period.

 

Locomotive Green is good. My feeling is that the green patches in Midland Style are too dark, at least for a model. There are plenty of photos of green engines in the various books, though many are in fact works grey - but they show the lining. There were two shades of green: a darker green was Kirtley's standard colour (roughly per your picture of 1066), replaced by Johnson with a lighter shade from 1876/7 - which will have taken a few years to become universal; then of course red from 1883 which again took some years to spread. Dow, in Midland Style, states that your F. Moore postcard of 1400 is an accurate depiction. (But how did he know?)

Edited May 7, 2021 by Compound2632

[Schooner]

That cussing delete-all function! Whyyyyyy?! Here we go yet again...

 

No excusing needed Stephen, many thanks for another helpful response.

 

Ah, I took the date for the manure wagon on the Mousa site (1880) at face value. Looks like it and the covered wagon should be swapped out for another brace of low opens. I made an assumption that eight different types of wagon would be better for the shunting puzzle aspect, but a) that's not true and b) even I can tell a sheeted open from an un-sheeted open wagon

 

5&9's page hasn't left my browser for months! Plans many and varied for those, very much including the PO coal wagons, but still under development. Taking stock of what this project really is has made me drop the more ambitious rolling stock plans, but I still have three locos (and a fourth waiting in the wings) which to my mind means four of these stock sets of 12 'units'.

 

The only extant set is the least interesting, but is in my grubby mitts good to go as soon as track is laid. Peckett W4 + eight GSWR-commissioned wagons + three from Wessex Wagons which caught my eye. They're a motley bunch, all RTR with too much dubious Dapolosity, but are fine for getting started and testing radii, clearances, couplings etc. as well as painting and weathering.

 

Then there's the MR set, chosen because appropriate motive power (MW Class H) is shared with the Millwall Dock Co, happily. This will be the next to take shape, as it makes extensive use of one supplier whose kits are not cheap but which (based on my one experience with them) look good and won't be ruined by my lack of skill. Hopefully. My lack of experience (and limited instructive material) certainly told last time, but there's only one way to sort that out... 

 

The 00 Works LSWR 0330 is meant to be a generic (!) Beyer-Peacock 0-6-0ST, and will probably be re-painted. It was purchased to stand in for the West India Dock Co's Fowler 0-6-0ST Swift, which it doesn't remotely resemble, but it's RTR and does look like a Victorian saddle tank. This made it near enough unique from what I could tell six months ago, and I don't think it's fair to keep her boxed up when there's a layout to bustle about.  Stock set will be worked out after the MR project is complete, but is likely to lean heavily on the 5&9 catalogue as equally generic 1860s-1880s wagons.

 

The last loco...well we'll wait for her to show up before worrying what she'll run with! 

 

Will it be four times as fun as just one set up? Of course not, but as long as it ends in something enjoyable to create, operate and own then I shan't begrudge the cost. However, I must keep reminding myself that for me the hobby is of necessity in the learning, the research and the planning. The layout is a project, and I'm looking forward to it very much, but I'm simply not home enough to view myself as a modeller or a model railway as some sort of on-going thing. The many fine examples of the craft on RMWeb let me get carried away - fun but unsustainable - and I'm glad to have had a bit of a reality check. Four locos and 50-odd wagons is enough to be getting on with for a little Inglenook. At least, for now

 

With a bit of luck I'll be within a fortnight or so of making a start in earnest, and putting this approach to the test. Fingers crossed...

 

#nofilter sorry!

Edited May 8, 2021 by Schooner

[Schooner]

Finally! You can stick your sub-atomic particles and quantum gravity, for the New Physics has been been discovered!

 

Warp Speed

If you are are really 'kin slow; everything 'kin warps. 

 

Fact.

 

The baseboard will need to be replaced (a shame, as it turns out Copydex is a really effective way of attaching the 5mm foam trackbed); as will the poor Class H body:

 

(sorry for the orientation; any landscape upload presents upside down, regardless of how it starts off)

 

This is my fault for taking a silly approach; Hattons' fault for suggesting all ordered trackwork would arrive shortly after Christmas; PECO's fault for not supplying RH bullhead points to Hattons; and presumably PECO's supplier's fault, if not then skip Mornington-style to it being COVID-19's fault for everything.

 

On the plus side, there has been some general progress and some genuine modelling.

 

Progress:

A little update to the layout plan

 

...a little building or two...

 

 

...and a sort of 3D sketch for wharf crane.

 

Gridded paper = scientific method...right?

 

I've also been looking at ground cover:

 

Of primary interest are 

3) Chinchilla dust

4) Attwood Aggregates 'MC Road Stone'

5) Treemendus Earth Powder

 

 

For extra context:

 

The plan is to use Chinchilla dust as ballast and bulk; but I think the Treemendus texture is very good (especially if I graded it for more control of the surface in various parts of the wharf) and I like the roadstone as roadstone (an important cargo on the Stroudwater Navigation), but might look at their 'Dust' products which is finer still for the road surface. The lot can be set into textured earth acrylic paint (#6, 8, 9) which should help further colour and texture variation. Early days, but promising.

 

Hit the upload limit, so that'll do for now!

[MrWolf]

Some very useful information there, I followed the link from my own thread. 

I do like the way that you have used the horse drawn cart as a yardstick. It shows how the surface looks scale wise far better than any kind of accepted measuring device. We don't need to know how big or small the grains of material are, we need to know how they will look in relation to objects of known size.

[Mikkel]

Thanks again Schooner, excellent illustrations. The Treemendous earth powder does look good. Nice cart too.

 

13 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

 

The orientation of that photo reminds me of the old Kerryman joke about the gardener getting instructions: "Green on top, brown underneath."

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Mikkel

[Schooner]

Less frantic today, settling into the idea of having some time on my hands, with another little proof-of-concept and another step towards the pub.

 

Based on the Petite Properties Blackberry Farm, on the grounds that it can be made to look like

...that. With some slight changes to the detailing and the roofing material, a decent approximation to many of the Cotswold architectural tells is within reach:

• local stone
• steep-pitched roof, the smarter the building the more likely to have swept valleys (good info here)
• roofed with stone slates, largest lowest, with significant overhang
• (king) mullion windows, with those rain-protectors which will have a proper name over the lintels
• low eaves/gabelled upper floor windows

I got off to a solid start the other day, and the carcass was good to go:

 

As a nice touch, the build instructions also cover how to finish the building as seen in the promo photos. Following these I gave the shell a good sand (c.P120 for future reference), and covered in PVA:

 

which was allowed to dry*.

 

Then came the plaster. Following instructions from both Bea (of Petite Properties) and the manufacturer as best I could...as closely as felt reasonable at the time, I lathered the thing in gunk. This was applied with the branded tool which came with the plaster intially, and then (more successfully) with a plastic business card, as is traditional. It didn't feel like it went very well, so I've popped on to RMWeb to avoid the temptation to mess about with it as it dries. Much sanding and fairing in my future...fingers x'd it takes tooling as well as it claims!

 

 

Tomorrow will be for trying to salvage the mess. If it's not a take-it-all-off-and-start-again job, I'm hoping to have broken the back of the stonework by close of play tomorrow. After that, the roof.

 

Advice please on how to do this. I can't think of another way than to make up card strips with the stone tiles cut into the lower edge, with various sizes to suit the changing size of stone towards the top. Am I missing something?

 

Thanks

 

Schooner

 

 

*Whilst waiting for the PVA to dry, I dug out another sketch and some basswood strip:

...and knocked up a trial frame for the open shed on the LHS of the layout. 

 

Plenty of improvements to make, but I think a successful proof of concept.

 

ps.  @Mikkel Kind of you to say. The last thing to be made before my last trip, it's unfinished and I didn't do a very good job of what I did complete. The kit is the Arch Laser Devon Farm Cart and, as @MrWolf rightly noted, it's becoming a useful metric by which all things on the layout are being measured!

[Caley Jim]

36 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Advice please on how to do this. I can't think of another way than to make up card strips with the stone tiles cut into the lower edge, with various sizes to suit the changing size of stone towards the top. Am I missing something?

That's the way I do my slate roofs.  Make the strips twice the depth you want to show and only cut half way though.  I print out a grid (drawn up in CAD) and use that as a guide for cutting so that they are consistent.  It also helps to draw horizontal lines every so often across the roof to help you keep the rows straight and level.  See the results in the last few pages of my layout thread  (Link below)

 

Jim

[Northroader]

With a Cotswold style stone slab roof, Jim’s advice is good, and how I do mine, except the slabs stay roughly in proportion length to width, so the grid you work off needs to shrink as you progress up to the top.

[Schooner]

Not much on telly (I assume)

Not overly precise, but nor's the prototype. If it's not good enough I can always do it again!

[Schooner]

On 18/05/2021 at 16:53, Schooner said:

I'm hoping to have broken the back of the stonework by close of play tomorrow

 

Lol.

 

In my defence, there have been other things on - including a second skim of filler for the building to fair it up a bit better, and the arrival of the Skytrex warehouse which has now been assembled and primed (a win, does exactly what I was hoping for on the layout).

 

Re filler: Next time I think I will try using some 1mm strip a spacers. Cut as stones, a few to a wall, this will give a consistent depth and something to fair against, but still take a sand and a coat of paint well enough to blend in with the plaster.

 

That done, today was for experimenting on the side facing away from the operator. Techniques trialed for the first time, not much measuring or care for accuracy in evidence. Forgive me. Disclaimers out the way, criticism sought please:

30 mins 

 

90 mins...not quick!

 

Windows filed

 

The things which I keep thinking of as wash strakes, but absolutely aren't, added from .8mm triangular strip. More care needed with each step of this process, especially glue application, but I think the idea's got legs...

 

Likewise the stone mullions

 

Base coat, intentionally inconsistent...

 

...an idea which worked, but was then rendered pointless by an over-zealous application of what was meant to be a wash for the mortar.

 

Trying to paint away the mistakes of each previous coat  

 

Far from perfect, but considering it was a first practice and the approach taken I'm pleased with the end result. The ideas are sound, it's just the execution which needs improved...simple!

 

Changes:

• Sand down to <1mm
• scribe slightly deeper 
• measure around windows!
• make up a little guide for filing a consistent angle around the windows (to match measured lines)
• really do pay attention when cutting angles on, and applying glue to parts <1mm
• painting went better than anticipated, but the 'mortar wash' step was a backwards step. Next time, try Wishy Washy Stone overall, followed by Warm Stone as a base colour. 
• The sponge applicator is great, apart from when it's too wet in which case it's bloody awful. 
• forgot to play with weathering powders. Recommendations?
• What else?

Bring on the developmental feedback, please!

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

[Schooner]

Willie is less than half a mile north of Gloucester, just north of the GWR's bridge over the Eastern leg of the Severn, moored on the West bank. Following the caption, she was photographed soon after launch (1893), built by Francis Hipwood, presumably at one of these yards: Britain from Above, NLS.

 

More Pre-Grouping Trucks'n'Trows from today's reading, for general interest:

How light does a railway need to be before it floats?! Taken from a much larger photo of Chepstow's farcical developing shipyard in the early 1920s. The 'box trow'* is bringing in coal for use around the yard, distributed by rail. Both locos which worked the yard, an ogee Neilson and a Kerr Stuart well tank, are both preserved. Pleasing.

 

*the hold is boxed in with timber, vs. the canvas sidecloths (on metal stanchions) of the open trows, as visible in the photo.

 

Another zoomed-in corner of a larger photo. No prizes for guessing the location, but the dating is rather loosely 'before the Great War'. Further proof of Stephen's Theorem (that no yard is complete without a D299)? The boats are interesting too, not least because it's not far off the mix I'm aiming to represent: Fame is an up-river (small) 'open trow', perfect for my needs, Unity is a thumping great dumb-barge, but if you reverse the proportions so she's smaller than Fame and sharpen the ends up a bit then you end up with something like a Stroud barge (like Perseverence and Ila seen before). The relative size of the narrow boats ('long boats' in Severn parlance) is obvious. To complete the set*, the ketch ahead of Fame and Unity is a 'flush-decked' trow.

 

*Of general types that is, but let's not get into local variations tonight.

 

Closer to home:

I'm still waiting on 'kin points (well over six months now), nothing is finished or fastened etc etc etc, but for the first time I've got a real sense of it as a layout. 

 

Getting there, come on now Peco!

[Compound2632]

9 hours ago, Schooner said:

Another zoomed-in corner of a larger photo. No prizes for guessing the location, but the dating is rather loosely 'before the Great War'. Further proof of Stephen's Theorem (that no yard is complete without a D299)?

 

It's a Midland location before the Great War so Midland wagons dominate. The surprise would be to see another company's wagon. The two with prominent MR are almost certainly D299, as is the one with sheeted load next to them but I think the nearer one might be a 3-plank D305 - noting how the sheet hangs in each case, revealing the height of the sides. There's a possibility the 5-plank wagons might be the end-door D351 (approximate ratio one D351:seven D299) or D302, if the photo is after 1911 - but it has the look of earlier to me. 

[Schooner]

Some carts are very very far away...

 

 

...and some carts are very very small!

 

My gut feeling is that Dart Castings wagon on the left is correct, would someone be able to confirm? 

 

Don't look too closely at the trucks behind. A first attempt at white metal rolling stock - Chatham's LB@SCR long and short ballast wagons - and it shows. Not a success as wagons, but a success as a project - I learned a lot and am less likely to ruin the David Green GWR 3-plankers...'cos I'll be leaving them safely in their packaging

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

[Annie]

Some of those regional wagons were made in a variety of different sizes so you might need to consult your friendly local cartwright/wagon restorer to get an answer to your question.

[MrWolf]

24 minutes ago, Annie said:

Some of those regional wagons were made in a variety of different sizes so you might need to consult your friendly local cartwright/wagon restorer to get an answer to your question.

 

That's very true, though a general rule of thumb for a general purpose farm cart like that would be, front wheels 3'6" dia, rears 5'0", body width 4'0", track 5'0" body length 12'0".

[ChrisN]

Annie is right.  I went to the Reading Museum of Rural Life and it was a real eye opener.  The biggest wagons though were for East Anglia where there was/is lots of flat land and cereal crops.  This site may well be worth an explore.  I have not explored it myself, it is just there for Justin, and Ron.  (Justin Case and Lateron).

 

Just checked, it has pictures but the plans have to be bought at ridiculous prices, or from the Guild of Model Wheelwrights at unspecified prices.

Edited May 28, 2021 by ChrisN

[billbedford]

51 minutes ago, Annie said:

Some of those regional wagons were made in a variety of different sizes so you might need to consult your friendly local cartwright/wagon restorer to get an answer to your question.

 

Yes, but horses didn't vary that much in size. So measuring the distance between the shafts will give you a clue as to whether the model is overscale. 

[Schooner]

Good enough for me, cheers all!

 

As long as the answers isn't "Ooh, look out for those Dart Castings Wagons - they're sold as 00* but are actually 1:87!" then I'll stop worrying about what to do with the other five or so sat by the bench and just build them  And thanks @billbedford, I'll do just that.

 

*Just checked: "00 Gauge". That's a blood clever scooter...

Edited May 28, 2021 by Schooner
Cross-post with Bill

[MikeOxon]

Chris just beat me to it with his mention of the Reading Museum of Rural Life.  the variety of wagon types and sizes is remarkable.  I took the following from the gallery, looking along a line of wagons of various sizes:

 

 

Mike

 

[Mikkel]

On 28/05/2021 at 11:26, Schooner said:

My gut feeling is that Dart Castings wagon on the left is correct, would someone be able to confirm? 

 

I built this some time ago and looked around for the prototype. Couldn't find an exact match but as Mike's photos suggest it's close enough, I think. A photo of one I found in this post.

[bgman]

If you can source this book it is extremely informative. I managed to find it several years ago in a local secondhand bookshop.

 

 

G

[Nearholmer]

If you want really good waggon drawings, look out for the series drawn by John Thompson.
 

I used to work with him, under his other name, Doug, and the plan chest in our office was full of masters for his beautiful drawings, rather than drawings of high-voltage cable layouts, and substations, as perhaps it ought to have been. He used to stay late in the office to draw wagons, and I remember once going to inspect a batch of new transformers at GEC Rugby with him. After dinner at our hotel, I spent the evening holding the end of the tape measure in a hedgerow in the middle of nowhere, to where we were conveyed by taxi (“Yes, here. And, be back to collect us at nine o’clock.”), helping to measure a decaying waggon that I was assured was the last of its kind.
 

He died far too young, and his funeral was immensely touching, with tributes read out from many people including a guy doing life in Parkhurst, who said that he only ‘kept it together’ by imagining his cell was a gypsy waggon (JDT had produced the definitive book on gypsy waggons). He would always say when faced with any task “Will it add to the sum of human happiness?”, if the answer was “no”, he simply wouldn’t do it, but if it was “yes” he put full heart into it, whatever it was.

[Schooner]

@MikeOxon That photo is very helpful, thank you, and a reminder about the MERL. I've come across it before, but at about 4am and not a lot sunk in. Glad of the reminder!

 

@Mikkel, ah always such a pleasure, and education, to revist Farthing. Thanks for the link  In return, have a photo of a Wiltshire Bow wagon:

http://www.reading.ac.uk/adlib/images/objects/50s/51_1286_img_001.jpg

 

(although I'm rather taken with this Gloucestershire number: http://www.reading.ac.uk/adlib/images/objects/jisc2012/60_2078.jpg Pleasing curvature)

 

@bgman Thank you. A decent copy was available on Abebooks and is now on its way!

 

@Nearholmer That was one of the loveliest posts I've read for a long time. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for his drawings, and will be grateful for his additions to the sum of human happiness when I come across them.

 

On today:

 

Dart wagons built up, in between scribing stonework. A couple more to go from Arch Laser and Shire Scenes, after which I'll call it a day until the layout is 'finished' and I can start making improvements. That scene of Gegg's lads unloading a long boat at Cirencester is almost within reach...  

 

Night all (morning Annie!)

 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by Schooner
ps. Next week I'll start getting things painted. Honest!

[Nearholmer]

Some John Thompson drawings available here https://hobby.uk.com/horse-drawn-vehicles/the-john-thompson-collection/fieldway-plans-farm-waggons.html?mode=list

[Mikkel]

18 hours ago, Schooner said:

(although I'm rather taken with this Gloucestershire number: http://www.reading.ac.uk/adlib/images/objects/jisc2012/60_2078.jpg Pleasing curvature)

 

Pleasing indeed! What an art form. Locos look almost crude by comparison (heresy, I know).

 

18 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

Dart wagons built up

 

They look good together. Second from right  isn't too far off a GWR design, if you're so inclined.

 

The waggon to horse ratio looks a bit unfair to old Rosie though!