Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Mikkel said:

.....................

The waggon to horse ratio looks a bit unfair to old Rosie though!

If Rosie's struggling a bit, it's always possible to add helping feet:

 

 

This illustration is an extract from a large wall poster at the Reading Museum of Rural Life about a Broad Wheeled Sussex Waggon, showing chain horses.

 

Mike

[MikeOxon]

Another example of a helping horse:

 

https://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrhd748.htm

 

Mike

[Nearholmer]

Even urban horse tramways used ‘banking horses’ ( I think the proper term is ‘trace horse’) on unusually steep sections.

[MikeOxon]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

Even urban horse tramways used ‘banking horses’ ( I think the proper term is ‘trace horse’) on unusually steep sections.

Your post reminded me of this 1849 print of the Festiniog Railway:

 

[Edwardian]

On 28/05/2021 at 10:26, Schooner said:

Some carts are very very far away...

 

 

...and some carts are very very small!

 

My gut feeling is that Dart Castings wagon on the left is correct, would someone be able to confirm? 

 

Don't look too closely at the trucks behind. A first attempt at white metal rolling stock - Chatham's LB@SCR long and short ballast wagons - and it shows. Not a success as wagons, but a success as a project - I learned a lot and am less likely to ruin the David Green GWR 3-plankers...'cos I'll be leaving them safely in their packaging

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

 

This may be of some use in terms of the correct style of waggon ...

 

 

Is your layout Gloucestershire? Not an area I' very familiar with. North and South Gloucestershire apparently had distinctive types ...

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Compound2632]

What we see there is that a particular type of cart was not confined to its nominal area. The "South Gloucestershire" cart was built in Wotton-under-Edge, right enough, but recorded as used miles away in the Felden.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Compound2632

[Nearholmer]

Stumbled upon a picture of some banking horse having a rest between jobs 

https://www.theglasgowstory.com/image/?inum=TGSE01041

 

Incidentally, the only dictionary definition of "trace horse" says that it is hitched beside the basic horse or team, but I'm certain that on tramways they were hitched ahead (I expect that the GWR unhitched the original horse, put the extra one in the shafts, the original one ahead, pulled the cart up the hill, then reversed the entire fernangle at the top). 

[MikeOxon]

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

.................................

Is your layout Gloucestershire? Not an area I' very familiar with. North and South Gloucestershire apparently had distinctive types ...

 

 

I love those sweeping curves of the mudguards over the rear wheels!  I suspect the 'origin' terms have more to do with where the waggons were built rather than where they were used, although some types are clearly adapted to carrying certain types of crops, in East Anglia, for example.

[Edwardian]

1 hour ago, Compound2632 said:

What we see there is that a particular type of cart was not confined to its nominal area. The "South Gloucestershire" cart was built in Wotton-under-Edge, right enough, but recorded as used miles away in the Felden.

 

7 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

 

I love those sweeping curves of the mudguards over the rear wheels!  I suspect the 'origin' terms have more to do with where the waggons were built rather than where they were used, although some types are clearly adapted to carrying certain types of crops, in East Anglia, for example.

 

The accompanying text is quite good at giving the geographical dispersal, so the pictures do have to be considered alongside the descriptions.  I know, for example, what types of waggon were likely to have cropped up in West Norfolk!

[Nick Holliday]

36 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Incidentally, the only dictionary definition of "trace horse" says that it is hitched beside the basic horse or team, but I'm certain that on tramways they were hitched ahead (I expect that the GWR unhitched the original horse, put the extra one in the shafts, the original one ahead, pulled the cart up the hill, then reversed the entire fernangle at the top). 

On Wimbledon Hill there was a trace horse provided by a charity to provide assistance up the hill. Definitely placed in front of the

horse.

[kitpw]

1 hour ago, Nick Holliday said:

On Wimbledon Hill there was a trace horse provided by a charity

...I wish it had still been there in 1976 when the clutch on my 'frogeye sprite' gave up altogether - now that would have been useful!

Kit PW

[bgman]

I knew that I had read an early Model Railway Journal article from the past and looking through my library of MRJ's I found it.

 

Chris Pilton's article "Oxfordshire and Berkshire Farm Waggons in 4mm scale" can be found in No.16 1987 and gives details of the  comprehensive method he employed in constructing them.

 

The next article is by Alan Sibley "Period Waterways" and is just as fascinating and informative.

 

Hope this helps ?

 

G

[Schooner]

7 hours ago, bgman said:

Hope this helps ?

Very much so, an ideal combination. Thanks for the steer. By-the-by I've been working up trow lines over the past couple of days and must say again how much I admire your ship models, particularly the Tamar barge and trow. If only kits were available for them, think how much better all those GWR-BLT'n'quay layouts would be!

 

Thanks all for keeping the parish Wisdom Font in spate It makes sense, but I'd never thought about changing the number of horses on the fly. Excellent info and pics...makes me feel churlish for setting the layout at lunchtime! With the lads on their break and the visible animals resting it'll be easier to have everyone in reasonably stationary poses, and it makes sense of the wharf being shunted in the first place.

 

Forgive me if I've mentioned before that donkeys were more frequently used than horses on the Stroudwater and (what was open of) the Thames and Severn in the late Victorian period. This, IIRC, despite a by-law which either explicitly banned their use for towing (or set a minimum size for animals permitted to tow which excluded them, I forget which). Heavier barges did require two horses when laden, so one of them got a trip to Bristol or Gloucester docks by rail as the other took the light barge, setting off a couple of days earlier. Perhaps I need to place an order with London Road Models...

 

On the modelling front, the Cotswolding of the buildings is in progress: 

 

...after which I made up a little colour chart, which I'll share in case it's of use:

 

 

Note to self: next time experiment on the spare sheet and get the intended results on the buildings, not the other way round! I'm glad this is only the warm-up layout, cockups abound... 

 

[Edwardian]

On 28/05/2021 at 10:26, Schooner said:

Some carts are very very far away...

 

 

...and some carts are very very small!

 

My gut feeling is that Dart Castings wagon on the left is correct, would someone be able to confirm? 

 

Don't look too closely at the trucks behind. A first attempt at white metal rolling stock - Chatham's LB@SCR long and short ballast wagons - and it shows. Not a success as wagons, but a success as a project - I learned a lot and am less likely to ruin the David Green GWR 3-plankers...'cos I'll be leaving them safely in their packaging

 

Cheers,

 

Schooner

 

My reading suggests mixed news for you on the waggon front.

 

I'll say up front that, from the first glimpse, I've had reservations about the laser-cut waggon; I just don't think it's a very convincing portrait or one made with sufficient knowledge of the subject. I would suggest that Dart Castings has provided a more accurate model in terms of scale and in terms of reflecting the style and mode of construction.  This, I feel, is evident notwithstanding the fact that the models portray different styles of waggon.

 

The size of the laser cut rear wheels looks truly monstrous, but I'd be tempting to replace the wheels with cast metal items anyway; the flatness and lack of detail inherent in the laser-cut method is a real limitation when it comes to the wheels. The strength of the laser-cut medium is seen rather in the body.

 

In any case, for a farm waggon, you really need dished and canted wheels. 

 

 

So, those would be my thoughts on how well the two models represent a farm waggon.

 

The laser-cut waggon, due to the great depth and style of the body, best approximates to waggons from Cambridgeshire, South Lincs and Northants. Most types have shallower bodies, include all waggons anywhere near your layout.  Both front and rear wheels are, nevertheless, far too large.

 

Looking at what the text tells us concerning distribution, you probably have a choice of three types:

 

1. Wiltshire & Berkshire. I suspect this one is a bit of a stretch, but they were built as far north as Malmesbury.

 

 

2.  Oxfordshire (as 'Buckingham' below).  This seems appropriate for the east. This type had a very wide distribution and was known in the Cotswolds, where it was called 'the Cotswold'. It was found at least as far west as Cirencester.

 

 

3. South Gloucestershire. These seem the best match for where I think your layout is set - the Stroudwater canal - and covered the area south of Gloucester as far as Bristol and very similar to the neighbouring Wiltshire waggons.

 

 

All three types are relatively shallow in the body and have curved, or hooped, lime boards or raves over the rear wheels. 

 

Unfortunately, neither of your models are a good visual match for any of these types.  I note the Dart Castings model is based on a Monmouthshire type. Langley make a farm waggon, but, again, not a type resembling those in your area. 

 

 

 

[MikeOxon]

It's perhaps worth mentioning that Langley supply some white-metal wheels, separately form complete models.

[Edwardian]

22 minutes ago, MikeOxon said:

It's perhaps worth mentioning that Langley supply some white-metal wheels, separately form complete models.

 

Good point.

 

Yes, I meant to say that. I've built up a small stash over the years, visiting the Langley exhibition stand.

 

Scalelink also supply assorted cast wheels as part of the WT ranges.

[Edwardian]

If it were me (so, just my personal musings), I'd take the Dart Castings under-carriage and build a replacement bow-waggon body, based on the Wilts side view (scaled off the Dart rear wheels) and detailed according to the colour illustration of the South Gloucs. 

 

It's a way to get a waggon characteristic of your chosen area. It all depends on how great a priority it is. Many would be content so long as the trains were right, that being the focus of a model railway, after all.  

[Northroader]

You do need to get the wagon fully detailed?

[Nearholmer]

3 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Many would be content so long as the trains were right, that being the focus of a model railway, after all.  

 

You're beginning to sound like me. Did the "scenic revolution" that started just before WW2 pass you by? Seems unlikely, given the care that you are taking over the "aspic" (as I think Mr Rice called it) for the WNR.

[Edwardian]

14 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

 

You're beginning to sound like me. Did the "scenic revolution" that started just before WW2 pass you by? Seems unlikely, given the care that you are taking over the "aspic" (as I think Mr Rice called it) for the WNR.

 

Indeed, but there is no one way to go railway modelling, hence I proffered a view of what I would do, for what that's worth, while recognising that obsessing about the correct type of horse drawn farm equipment might not strike everyone as necessary or particularly worthwhile!

 

And I do feel rather guilty in case Mr Schooner feels I'm saying that his two lovely wagons won't do! I take some comfort, however, from the fact of his own diligent maritime research. 

 

One day, I shall inflict upon parishioners my musings on appropriate waggons for Castle Aching.  Until then, I should probably keep my odd little obsessions more to myself!

[Caley Jim]

1 hour ago, Northroader said:

You do need to get the wagon fully detailed?

White horse to brown horse, 'We need to talk to the shop steward about the loads their putting on this cart, or do we just lie down in protest right here!'

 

Jim

[Schooner]

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...from the first glimpse, I've had reservations about the laser-cut waggon...

Agreed.

 

17 hours ago, Edwardian said:

Looking at what the text tells us concerning distribution, you probably have a choice of three types:

Useful, thank you very much.

 

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...my personal musing...

Always appreciated, and helpful as ever.

 

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

It all depends on how great a priority it is.

Currently, not*. In time,'tho, I would hope it makes it to the top of the list. 

 

8 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...that being the focus of a model railway, after all.  

Wait, what?! 

 

5 hours ago, Northroader said:

You do need to get the wagon fully detailed?

A-ha! 

 

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...obsessing about the correct type of horse drawn farm equipment might not strike everyone as necessary or particularly worthwhile!

Regardless, it's a lovely way to pass the time Anyway, why be wrong?

 

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...I do feel rather guilty...

Please don't! Your observations chime with my own, and everyone's help and shared knowledge is greatly appreciated. 

 

4 hours ago, Edwardian said:

...maritime research. 

On which: 

We've previously seen a photograph of the 'long boat' Staunch unloading coal at Cirencester for F. Gegg and Co. New tonight is the Wilts & Gloucestershire Standard article of the 26th March, 1904 which documents the occasion. It's delightful and well worth the time to read, so I'll see you in a couple of minutes...

 

Of the greatest group interest is probably this section

"As regards the commercial aspects of the undertaking, Captain Hewer accepted at the same rate as that charged by the railway companies, viz., 7s. 6d. per ton, so that assuming his load to be 37 tons his freight would come to £13 17s. 6d.  the tolls he had to pay to the several navigations traversed amounted to between £5 and £6, and the balance is what is available for the labour, horse and other expenses, use of boat, &c.  what is needed, of course, to make the venture successful is the development of a traffic in round timber to pay for the outward voyage."

 

Of greatest utility is the list of cargoes carried on the re-opened canal - coal, gravel, roadstone, baulk timber (round timber is desired as out-bound traffic), and corn. As expected, which is reassuring.

 

http://latton.bravesites.com/files/resized/332068/500;236;4db65a0dae8fb3ea95cf36dd4f004d47a72df0ee.jpg

 

It's a small pic and I'm on my phone so very much an open question: is the weighbridge office a grounded covered wagon body? 

 

Of little use for the layout, but I'm going to link it anyway for general interest, is a bit of relevant Hornblower which I'd clean forgotten. 

 

That'll do for now, cheers all! 

 

*This is as much progress as I'll be making for now. I'm off tomorrow for the next gig, hopefully back in August but never really know if it'll be next week or next year. If Peco deigned to manufacture and delivery a bullhead RH point or two in the meantime, that'd be fine by me...

 

[Edwardian]

5 hours ago, Schooner said:

 

We've previously seen a photograph of the 'long boat' Staunch unloading coal at Cirencester for F. Gegg and Co. N

 

 

Well, that's your Wilts/South Gloucs/Oxford bow waggon right there in Cirencester basin among the 2-wheel coal carts!

 

 

EDIT: Continuing my reading this morning, these West Country bow waggons were on the small side with smaller wheels. Having also seen the the Monmouthshire waggons (the Dart kit) are similarly sized, I think you'd be on to a winner if you re-bodied a Dart waggon as a bow waggon. 

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Edwardian

[MikeOxon]

15 hours ago, Edwardian said:

.................... Many would be content so long as the trains were right, that being the focus of a model railway, after all.  

some don't even worry about that

 

[Caley Jim]

2 hours ago, MikeOxon said:

some don't even worry about that

 

Is that not where we all started on this journey? 

 

Jim