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Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings - A holiday in the Cotswolds [was Port of London, 1884]


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Idiot that I am, I forgot that a potentially relevant* photo lay in the opening post of this thread from day one:

number-1-warehouse-945x561.jpg

 

Well, that's the LNWR, LB&SCR and NER for starters...! Identifying the further vans and open is beyond me, and I'd welcome any information.

 

 

Dockland: An Illustrated Historical Survey of Life and Work in East London has arrived, although I've yet to have useful time to devote to it. From the little I've seen, it'll be very helpful and I'm looking forward to getting to grips with it :)

 

Happy Sunday all, have a good week!

 

Schooner

 

*Location is the sidings to the North of No. 1 Warehouse, West India Import Dock, and I've yet to see a dated copy. The LNWR D33s were introduced in 1894, also the year of a revised map of the area in which the sidings are absent.  I've not got a conclusive date for them yet, but they first appear in the 1914-revised map, linked. Given that this photo is likely 30+ years after my target period, and the traffic here was likely to have been solely empty wagons in to pick up imported goods from the warehouses, I wonder how representative it might be for what I aim to represent.

 

Still, better than nothing :)

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6 minutes ago, Schooner said:

Given that this photo is likely 30+ years after my target period, and the traffic here was likely to have been solely empty wagons in to pick up imported goods from the warehouses, I wonder how representative it might be for what I aim to represent.

Fairly unrepresentative, I would say.

But in itself, a wonderful photo!

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LNWR should be no surprise, and probably quite common, given that they were big players in the NLR, the prime purpose of which was to reach the E&WI docks (hence its initial title), but the other two are interesting ......... I wonder what that LBSCR one had been sent to fetch, and where it was going.

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The LBSCR wagon has oil axleboxes. Not sure exactly when they were introduced on that system, but thus suggests to me a late-grouping photo.

The GWR van being loaded has the end/roof pattern common post 1904/5, I think - not hot my reference materials to hand.

The LNWR van has the letters, not the diamond logo, which would date it as post 1912 (when they stopped applying diamonds) or at least post 1908 (when the had both letters and diamonds). But the lettering is faded and the wagon dusty, suggesting a few years’ use, putting the time frame into WWI+. As such photos weren’t likely to be taken during the war, my guess is 1920 ± 2 years.

 

There’s enough there to get you searching for the right information to narrow it down, but as you say, it is well outside your time frame and the most likely scene for you would be lots of low-sided opens and a sprinkling of vans (doors on one side only), perhaps for grain traffic?

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1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

I wonder what that LBSCR one had been sent to fetch...

 

 In 1914 the Royal Commission on Sugar Supply, set up following the outbreak of war, asked the PLA to warehouse particularly large quantities of sugar. To help to meet this request, in 1915 the missing flooring was inserted between the upper storeys of No. 1 Warehouse.

 

As to where it went...

 

Edit: What may well be a useful tidbit from that photo is the three-wagon cut from three companies at one location for one commodity. The layout can accommodate this kind of traffic pattern comfortably, which is reassuring.

Edited by Schooner
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Good choice. Mr Lovett is a man who really knows his stuff, as are the authors of the other one; between the three of them they probably know more about the railways of London than any other three people on the planet.

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A little progress over the weekend, on which a few notes focused on modelling-relevant titbits (if allowed to get into things of more general note I shall be here all night and well into the morning) from 

 

Dockland:

  • Early 19th C warehousing used plinths, sills, cornices etc of Portland Stone
  • cast iron spiked window frames a particular feature of (and first used at) the West India
  • internal construction remained largely of wood through the period of relevance, other measures being deemed to reduce fire risk enough for insurers' peace of mind
  • that said, sub-dividing firewalls of brick were to be provided, with doors of 1/4" sheet iron
  • "Indeed, it is a sight to sadden the most callous to see thousands of men struggling for one day's hire" The daily 'call on', particularly pre the1889* Great Dock Strike* (illustrations of which could provide valuable detail and colour) was quite something. I wonder if it would be possible to model the scene to any useful degree...?
  • weighing machines everywhere: portable, in transit sheds, hanging from beams in warehouses (could be seen through loopholes) etc etc etc*
  • Look up Thames Waterman's Skiffs and Wey Navigation ("West Country") Barges. Respectively distinctive and valid variety.
  • Broad brush: discharging/loading gangs tended to be of 10-12 men/hold (details of positions refer to practice in the 1950s, but many tasks would have been identical 100 years earlier); 'down-holders' worked in three pairs, working away from the hatch to each side and one into the 'long end' of the hold*; four in a barge; one hatchwayman and a crane/winch driver. The making and breaking of sets on the quayside was typically the work of two men. Trucking goods from shed/warehouse to quay (or vice versa) took as many as you had.
  • Apart from shifting cargo, many ancilliary (including some quite skilled) jobs were done by the dock workers (at 5d an hour*, they were cheap). In the tea trade examples given cover tarring, sampling, bulking, blending etc*
  • In our period (the early 1880s), manpower would have been assisted by hydraulic dock cranes (early Armstrong 'Box' pattern for us: distinctive and useful for framing scenes, and the associated pumping house and accumlator tower are set to feature on the layout) and 'portable' jiggers* (also Armstrong, who certainly popularised, if not invented, them). These jiggers could be used in conjuction with dock derricks and cranes or in conjunction ships' gear (typically a yardarm rig). Also common was the ship using her own gear - perhaps a steam crane or steam winches on stinkpots; purchase and manpower for the sailing vessels. 
  • "In the 1860s it became the practice at the West India Docks for small portable steam donkey engines to be used for unloading ships in conjunction with blocks attached to the masts and spars of the ship" (Tim Smith, 'Hydraulic Power' article p.168)
  • Cargo would be placed ('bedded') in the shed according to port, type, cleanliness, value and convenient for the receiving hold. Heavy/weatherproof cargo would be left on the quayside, ideally within plumb of the lifting gear* ready for when the ship could take it.
  • Typically, goods were piled "as high as two men could [conveniently and consistently] lift", so varied a little with weight but rarely above shoulder height. This applied to clearing/loading holds too - the cargo was shifted in tiers (the creation and management of which was another skilled job*).
  • The "needleman" was a job dedicated to shovelling up after split bagwork cargo and re-bagging it. Evidently a frequent occurance and perhaps a nice cameo could be made...
  • Likewise the "box-knocker", who repaired broken casework cargo as well as opened/re-sealed cases for the Customs Clearing Clerk.
  • Discharged timber was piled "safely but not too fussily" as close to the ship/barge as possible. "Deal porters" would then move it to the sheds (and stack it most neatly).
  • Of railway traffic: "Goods services usually ran from each company's depot in Docklands to ther main marshalling yards, in most cases using their own [small tank] engines over NLR or GER lines" (Alan Pearsall, 'Transport' article p.)
  • Drying sacks (sugar in the example photographed, strung between warehouses) would make an effective scenic break/'tunnel' entrance

*See opening parentheses, but perhaps in a future post if it would be of wider interest..

 

NLR 1846-2012

  • Poplar Sidings, consisting of Harrow Lane, The Field and High Level, were 14 miles long (okay, so not directly relevant, but puts my little storage yard in perspective!)
  • "At it's peak [when?!] 700 wagons a week were exchanged between Harrow Lane Yard and Millwall Junction"
  • The "Millwall" Docks (Millwall, WID, Poplar and EID) were served by the NLR (having reversed at Harrow Lane), ECR, GER, GNR, GWR, MR and LNWR...although they all had their own warehousing and sidings, so we're back to wondering quite who sent their wagons into the docks, and who lightered goods to their depots. I'm starting to think that the answer to 'who did what?' is simply: 'yes'. It now seems likely that many railway companies who had depots at Poplar or nearby would've still had to send their wagons on to Dock property (and thus incur charges) to pick up certain goods or make certain deliveries. Likewise the few remaining 'foreign' companies...I'm starting to doubt that the LB&SCR would have been total strangers to the West India quaysides... :) The GWR had a bit of a gauge issue which lead to extensive lighterage to and from Brentford Dock (link to one of @Mikkel's excellent articles, which has somehow elluded me till this evening; but also do check out the NLS 1:1056 rev. 1853 map, and a tempting scene. Why did I not look into this before?!) which maybe had an impact; but even that line was doubled with standard gauge in 1861 and fully converted by 1875 so can perhaps be discounted. Erm...well that was a fun little tangent...anyway...where was I...

Ah, yes:

Trainz version 2. Remarkably similar to version 1, but applying some previous learnings. I'm also trying for something a little more immersive whilst play-testing the current trackplan:

844130890_LondonNewDock.jpg.4925925920402e9175159d3b3364620c.jpg

...and with an eye to a public release at some point, for which I'd like to do slightly better than the 'digital mock up of a hypothetical layout' of the last attempt. It's only had a couple of evenings, so there's a lot left on the to-do list before detailing etc can start. All very much still WIP with ideas being tested (and often rejected) etc. A few familiar angles for flavour:

615678477_NewDock1.jpg.fb1e55723ce81e1553638cc99d64723f.jpg

To the left, to the left...

 

661908828_NewDock2.jpg.858bef5e8a980b84f6c44c177c73903a.jpgFlourmill corner (top-right)

 

1326285667_NewDock3.jpg.1cb5877a0a548d66c09a9510e24eb932.jpg

Okay, so this view (the 'Primary Viewpoint' of old) definitely looks worse still. The idea was to see how effective the sheer-legs in the distance are to give the sense of continuning docks. Thoughts?

 

1058326299_NewDock4.jpg.d87ff9a7a95a9a9325ff6f54ebcd0f4a.jpg

Sort-of the view on entering the proposed layout, but with the dock full of operating well instead of water.

 

1034672084_NewDock5.jpg.d4c8b879aa098dcf48b97b38cbfa44f1.jpg

Lighterman's view of the bottom-left corner, taking in the end of the goods depot.

 

@Nearholmer, thank you. It arrived this afternoon, seems absolutely brilliant and I wouldn't have found it without your recommendation. In fact, the moment I press 'Submit' I shall be diving in...the typo's will just have to stay overnight!

 

Sorry for the rather unusual format, keen to get things down while I've got a moment and before I forget any more! Thanks for bearing with and all the help so far, much much appreciated. All thoughts, suggestions and feedback welcome as ever.

 

Happy Monday  Tuesday :)

 

Schooner

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19 hours ago, Schooner said:
  • Look up Thames Waterman's Skiffs and Wey Navigation ("West Country") Barges. Respectively distinctive and valid variety.

 

 

If you are looking up "West Country" barges, take care.  The barges that worked Yorkshire's Calder & Hebble Navigation and Huddersfield Broad Canal were also know as West Countries.

 

Adrian

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On 02/08/2020 at 21:52, Schooner said:

Idiot that I am, I forgot that a potentially relevant* photo lay in the opening post of this thread from day one:

number-1-warehouse-945x561.jpg

 

Well, that's the LNWR, LB&SCR and NER for starters...! Identifying the further vans and open is beyond me, and I'd welcome any information.

 

 

Dockland: An Illustrated Historical Survey of Life and Work in East London has arrived, although I've yet to have useful time to devote to it. From the little I've seen, it'll be very helpful and I'm looking forward to getting to grips with it :)

 

Happy Sunday all, have a good week!

 

Schooner

 

*Location is the sidings to the North of No. 1 Warehouse, West India Import Dock, and I've yet to see a dated copy. The LNWR D33s were introduced in 1894, also the year of a revised map of the area in which the sidings are absent.  I've not got a conclusive date for them yet, but they first appear in the 1914-revised map, linked. Given that this photo is likely 30+ years after my target period, and the traffic here was likely to have been solely empty wagons in to pick up imported goods from the warehouses, I wonder how representative it might be for what I aim to represent.

 

Still, better than nothing :)

Looking at wagons 4 and 5, 4 might be a GWR V12 or later.  No 5 looks like it might have end louvred with shutters - all of which suggests post c1910 at the earliest.  This then could mean common user wagons if post 1915 and therefore no inferences about destination or frequency of company types can be made.

DrDuncan

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On 06/09/2020 at 18:09, drduncan said:

...therefore no inferences about destination or frequency of company types can be made.

I'm inclined to agree, and we'll just have to enjoy the photo on its own merits.

 

Not so some of tonight's surprise findings, which are genuinely useful :)

 

Followers may recall that the lower-right of the layout features an engine house (as per The Buildings Post). I was keen on this idea (which moves the West India Dock engine house c.690' North) for two three four reasons: availability of relevant prototype information, support for the 'actors' of the hydraulic system (cranes, jiggers, swing bridge) and as an opperational asset - a destination for coal. Oh, and I need a view-blocker in that corner too. 

 

Well...how's this for a view-blocker:

HMS_President_in_South_West_India_Dock,_

HMS President (1829)

 

Photographed in West India South Dock c.1880...making all the many details relevant, if not railway-related. Sorry :)

 

For context, the white rectangle below is the approximate area she filled:

860705604_HMSPresident.jpg.7e850a9d600a1556a0f095927c74cf12.jpg

 

Likewise this photo, dated 1876:

sailing-ships-and-hms-president-in-the-s

In which we see a large portion of West India South Dock, viewed from the South-West and so looking towards South Dock Station and the MER. Note the swing bridge, ship barque alongside where Cutty Sark will be on the model (with her topgallant masts struck), and timber sheds beyond. A high resolution copy could answer so many questions! Likewise for a good version of the companion photograph, which seems rarer still.

 

I'm still working out what this might mean for the layout, but it seems a chance to keep closer to history and have a bit of fun so worth investigating. HMS President was built to the lines of USS President, one of the founding frigates of the USN and sister to Connie, which should make finding lines for her fairly straightforward.

 

On the drill shed itself, I've found only that "A timber drill shed was built at the north end of the east quay when, in 1873, the hulk of the frigate HMS President was moored there as a training ship for the Royal Naval Reserve." and this engraving of the interior:

inspection-of-the-royal-naval-artillery-

...but it should be possible to come up with something reasonable, if not perfectly accurate.

 

No excuse for not getting President's figurehead right though - it's been preserved:

150116-historic-figurehead-2.jpg

and is accessible by appointment

 

I had intended this post to be a quick summing up of bits from the wonderful collection aptly recommended by Mr @Nearholmer, but that's the internet for you! I'll get on it next time

 

'Til then, your thoughts are as welcome as ever. Always keen for opinions :) 

 

Cheers and gone,

 

Schooner

 

PS. President  in her prime: pu6144.jpg

 

Edited by Schooner
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Fascinating bit of history, how the ship was a deliberate "two fingers" waved at the USofA.

 

Does the figurehead represent a particular US President? Or some other particular person?

 

EDIT: answered my own question -  according to the RN it is John F Adams, Second PotUSA, which would be logical if it was a copy of the figurehead of the original USS/HMS President, but to me it actually looks more like a portrait of his grandson,  also John Adams, and son of John Quincy Adams 6th PotUSA, who I think was in office when this version of HMS President was launched in 1829. So maybe its just a generic John Adams! Unless, and this would be very nasty, it is actually of one of John Quincy Adams' other sons, who went over the side of a ship and drowned in 1829, probable suicide.

 

 

Edited by Nearholmer
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11 hours ago, Ravenser said:

D&S did whitemetal kits for some pretty early LNWR vans and SER/LCDR opens. Might be hen's teeth to find now

Many thanks for the steer :)

 

1675178804_SDwagons.jpg.854de5679fbb4f45921d36caf46a6048.jpg

I make that two covered wagons and a flat-ended (possibly half-round sheet rails?)...4-plank? I know the image quality is very poor, but anyone care for a stab at gleaning some better information from it? Regardless, this is unusually on-topic - relevant to railways, the Port of London, and even the 1880s -  let joy be unconfined!

 

676458228_Screenshot2020-09-18221334.jpg.c79c19ae21ee4ec8fac0c31d2c9cded8.jpg

...and, as these sidings are where reality gives way to fudge on the layout, it's even directly relevant to the model!

 

Happy Friday all, have a good weekend :)

 

Schooner

 

 

Edited by Schooner
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17 hours ago, Schooner said:

Many thanks for the steer :)

 

1675178804_SDwagons.jpg.854de5679fbb4f45921d36caf46a6048.jpg

I make that two covered wagons and a flat-ended (possibly half-round sheet rails?)...4-plank? I know the image quality is very poor, but anyone care for a stab at gleaning some better information from it? Regardless, this is unusually on-topic - relevant to railways, the Port of London, and even the 1880s -  let joy be unconfined!

 

676458228_Screenshot2020-09-18221334.jpg.c79c19ae21ee4ec8fac0c31d2c9cded8.jpg

...and, as these sidings are where reality gives way to fudge on the layout, it's even directly relevant to the model!

 

Happy Friday all, have a good weekend :)

 

Schooner

 

 

 

I'm no expert , but I have a feeling that 4 plank would be more usual for both general opens and freight in the 19th century. The GN built 4 plank opens to the end, the H&B seems to have used them widely (H&B stock represents 1880s practice - and it seems they barely updated anything until around 1910..), and I think I've seen early 20th cent shots of 4 plank PO wagons

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A little later than scheduled, some notes taken from From Potter's Bar to Poplar Dock, "An anthology of articles relating to the joint operations of the Great Northern Railway and the North London Railway". It should go without saying that the below are just the bits that are of relevance to the project (largely tangential), or that I think would be of interest more widely. This being so, it ignores a wealth of fantastic information - the book is highly recommended for those with an interest the area.

 

And so:

  • Provision for a junction between the NLR and GNR seems to have been made in the initial Act of 1846, where the 'limits of deviation' allowed for all necessary land to be acquired between the two companies.
  • The NLR's 1850 Act empowers the GNR to form a juntion west of Maiden Lane "to exchange traffic with the NLR and to work its own traffic from this junction to the East and West India Docks." (p.12). There seems to have been significant flexibility over who worked which traffic over the years. This was picked up in 1875 when an agreement was reached between the two over suburban workings. From this point the GNR decided to take on the the goods and mineral traffic to Mint Street and Poplar, previously worked by the NLR.
  • The MR having withdrawn from the NLR's Poplar Dock in 1869, had a branch to the Victoria Docks by June 1870 and opened its own 'Poplar Dock' on the 1st of January, 1883.
  • The 30-ton hydraulic crane supplied by Armstrong-Whitworthn in 1877-9, presumed to be that at the SW corner of Poplar Dock and accessed by rail via the GWR Depot, was jointly used by the GWR, LNWR and NLR. Photo:although-poplar-dock-was-owned-by-the-no
  • On which, the many fine photos of the GNR around Poplar which we've seen before were taken by an NLR photographer on the 5th of April, 1894 and are currently part of the Bow Collection, in the care of the NRM. Very useful finally get a good date for them.
  • The wonderful Doré engraving of the coal quay at Poplar Dock (seen here before) features some rather curious wagons: gmadkdsgeqnsty9zy8hf.jpeg

I (and many others) had put these down to artistic licence. However, some fantastic detail observations and detective work (I believe by David Hanson and Allan Sibley, although I'm sure they'd extend the credit futher) has dug up good photographic evidence of taper-body wagons at Poplar in the 1890s; including a flared wagon not at all unlike that in the Doré. This I found brilliant, and though I'll paraphrase for general interest this article* was worth the price of the anthology and the whole thing is well worth a read and the shelf-space!  The story goes that coal at Poplar was originally managed the Northumberland and Durham Coal Company, which was also obliged to provide wagons and locomotives, unloading and transhipping. The E&WID&BJR (NLR) provided the sidings, railways and depots and of course use of Poplar Dock. It is most likely that wagons and locos were built in Newcastle, to designs similar to those of the North Eastern collieries, and brought to London by sea. This gets chaldron-type** wagons in the right Space, and they were bought by the NLR when the original agreement disolved in 1857/8 which deals with Time. Long story short, wagon congestion and failure to offload them meant the wagons (by this point actually three designs of '7-ton hopper') were still around when the engraving was made in the 1870s, and the photos taken in the 1890s. The very last of these wagons was sold to Messers Thomas Ward and Co. in January 1910. Who'da thunk it.

 

*Itself taken from Ch.5 of Wagons of the North London Railway...which I'm struggling to find online to be able to provide a link. Apologies.

**Although likely to be 7-ton hoppers, as described in an 1881 survey, so sort of 'double-chaldrons'...which marries, amazingly, to the 7 uprights along the sides in the engraving rather than the more typical chaldron's 4.

 

  • According to the 1903 WTT, the GNR ran 7 trains each way to Poplar dock. Wrong time, wrong place, but it helps colour the image of how the area felt and operated. 
    • Arrived: 01.06, 05.27, 07.58, 10.51, 13.21, 17.10 and 20.25
    • Departed: 02.00, 06.25, 10,10, 12.50, 13.35, 15.25, 19.20, 21.26
    • In 1924 there were still 14 trains a day, likewise in 1938 there were 15
  • The NLR's 1919 Target Working Book suggests that No's 10,16, 17, 24, 26, 30, 31 worked to Poplar. No's 38, 39, and 40 exchanged with the PLA inbound at the LNWR yard; GWR yard and the GNR's yard respectively; outbound at The Field. Target No. 38 or 39 to trip to the Field from 17.50, 19.50 and 21.00 ("... and then as required until finish (about 2.0 a.m.)." to shunt and work traffic for the LNWR and GWR. A GNR loco would trip to the GN yard at "about" 18.15 and 01.00 and other trips as required.

284185294_PoplarSidings.jpg.e0c41a994072191c90380b898008798d.jpg

My understanding of the yard arrangements at Poplar.

...oh, I've just found the index. I shan't list them, but 27 NLR and GNR trips from Poplar, although there are a few Monday/Sun 'exception'/'only's, between 01.45 and 23.50.

 

Busy.

 

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

No real news, just a quick post to stash a couple of useful links:

 

GER Society's publications on Millwall and India Docks 

A great facility with lots of interesting bits for download. I shall have to set myself a budget...

 

London Picture Archive

Useful images from both Millwall and West India, including plenty of architectural details.

 

On the layout, I'm facing something of a dilemma: 

Should the swing bridge be sexy and twin-track, as just North of South Dock Station

https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/embed-item?i=235122

 

Or plain and single-track but with a rather attractive footbridge adjacent, as just South of the station?

https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/zoom-item?i=238877&WINID=1601410545843

 

EDIT: To be clear, although there was a single-track bridge across South Dock lock, with footbridge nearby, the one photographed is in Millwall, and really only relevant because I like it, it's my layout and I'll Rule One if I want to :)

 

Answers on a post-card please :)

 

Schooner

 

Ps. Posted by phone over very limited internet, so a lot of hope is being used that images will embed and links work. Sorry if this isn't so, will return and edit when poss.

 

Edited by Schooner
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https://www.british-history.ac.uk/survey-london/vols43-4/pp356-374  includes side elevations of the bridges you refer to above. The not-actually-an-arch footbridge is quite curious as it's described as a double swing bridge - I guess that the two short "back spans" must have been filled with a good deal of kentledge to counterbalance the cantilever arrangement:  it would make an interesting model, particularly if it opens! 

 

A fascinating area to study and model - I'm certainly following your posts with interest and look forward to seeing how your scheme develops.

 

Kit PW

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blogs/blog/2502-swan-hill/

 

 

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  • Schooner changed the title to Schooner's (Mostly Maritime) Musings - A holiday in the Cotswolds [was Port of London, 1884]

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