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4-CEP and 4-BEP services on East Coastway Line


Ben04uk
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I know they were incredibly rare as this were ostensibly the domain of the 4-CIG (and 4-VEP) post 1972 but does anyone know of any photos (or any details) of 4-CEP and 4-BEP services on the East Coastway Line, ideally between Eastbourne and Hastings? I have heard anicdotal evidence they did run sometimes if there were stock shortages, failures, etc. I'm pretty sure I never saw any but only spent holidays down there.

 

Also interested on the section of the East Coastway Line between Brighton and Lewes, and the Seaford Branch as well.

 

Any help in any era would be appreciated. 

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For a number of Summers from about 1987 an 8 CEP was utilised between the peaks to run a 'Student Special' from Hastings to Brighton and back leaving Hastings at 1143, I think it was a limited stop service fast from Bexhill to Eastbourne, and I think only called at Lewes on the way into Brighton ? The only trouble was that the sets were not available until after the morning peak, and by the time 1143 arrived most of the student traffic had already gone on earlier service trains. I'm not sure of the return working but it came back in time to form one of the Up London services via Battle.

 

Another semi regular working was utilising a 4 CEP which came down as the stopping portion of the 1758-1800 ? from London detached at Tunbridge Wells. It was booked to go up to Ore. It stood in for one of the DEMUs which ran in passenger service to Eastbourne before going empty up to Selhurst. When no units were required for Selhurst the 4 CEP ran to Eastbourne vice the DEMU (which was shunted into the Yard at Hastings) before returning empty to St. Leonards.

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Although the BI allocated CEPs and BEPs were primarily allocated to mid-Sussex services via Dorking, they certainly did find themselves on other routes from time to time. I would be very surprised if some didn’t appear on Victoria - Eastbourne & Ore services from time to time.

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9 hours ago, Ben04uk said:

Thanks, what an excellent photo. I don't remember Platform 4 - does anyone know what services would have used this platform?

 

Most services used Platform 4, its main claim to fame was when this happened back in 1958. http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/eventsummary.php?eventID=608

 

Going back to the BEP thread there is this nice photo on Flickr of an 8 BEP at Seaford.

4Bep 7002 Seaford 11/12/1982 Copyright Waddo Rail Archive Collection SSEM3

 

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The more unit types you have, the more risk of wrong formations, especially after a day of perturbations leaves trains out of position. RHQ Waterloo was very critical of the Divisions where these were concerned, and the 10.00 Morning Conference (by phone) would likely see some harsh observations by the HQ Officer if a Division's number were too large. In 1969, when there was a refresher course for all Control staff, I recall Charlie Harrington from HQ opining that if there were ever a Channel Tunnel then it would only be a matter of a week or two before a 14-coach TEE set would be on the 18.06 London Bridge to Coulsdon North...... 

 

Thus BEP vice Big would be by no means unheard of, and CEP vice Cig even more likely. In practice, neither really hurt the paying customer too much, whereas CEP vice BEP, or Cig vice Big, could cause complaints as morning coffee etc was not available. 

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On ‎14‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 09:20, anroar53 said:

Going back to the BEP thread there is this nice photo on Flickr of an 8 BEP at Seaford.

4Bep 7002 Seaford 11/12/1982 Copyright Waddo Rail Archive Collection SSEM3

 

 

With headcode 48, that must be charter, railtour or other special train.

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On 14/04/2020 at 10:29, Oldddudders said:

The more unit types you have, the more risk of wrong formations, especially after a day of perturbations leaves trains out of position.

 

Still happens today, there was a couple of weeks late last year when Gatwick Express red Class 387's started turning up in all sorts of odd places including Southampton on one occasion until Wessex Area Control pointed out they weren't actually cleared to run west of Havant and it was sent swiftly home again....

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On 15/04/2020 at 21:10, keefer said:

The description on the Flickr page says:

"4 Beps 7002 & 7021 Seen at Seaford with the Southern Electric Group's "The Jingle Belle" Rail Tour, 11th December 1982."

And so they were.  The headboard was still at the other end when the photograph was taken.  Among other things that tour was renowed for was the Christmas catering from the buffet cars.  Including one of the two prototype units had been hoped for but could not have been guaranteed given that there were only two.  Their interior finish differed (very obviously wood instead of steel-framed Melamine) and the configuration of the buffet car also differed.  

 

Reporting number 1Z48 gave rise to the headcode 48 which was otherwise a Central Division spare and as such was used for railtours on occasions.  Each division of the SR had a few spare headcodes not assigned to any route and used for special trains.  1 was common on the SED and 54 on the SWD with (only) the latter being officially listed for such use.  

 

As Ian states Cep and Bep units were allocated to Brighton for Central Division main line use and whilst nominally used on the Mid-Sussex (now Arun Valley) expresses they could and did turn up quite frequently elsewhere replacing Cig and Big units.  They were treated as fully interchangeable for operational purposes.  As such there will have been appearances over the years of both types on the Victoria / London Bridge - Eastbourne trains and with Cep units possibly continuing to Hastings / Ore though the buffet unit normally came off at Eastbourne and was attached to the next Up service.  This also occurred on the West Coastway route though that also saw a booked 12-Cep Littlehampton - London Bridge via Hove train each morning peak and return in the evening.    I cannot recall any booked Cep / Bep workings on the East Coastway.  

 

Cep (and very rarely Bep) units have also substituted on Coastway stoppers both ways out of Brighton when Bil / Hal / Cor units have been unavailable.  

 

 

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4 hours ago, Ben04uk said:

do you know which Cep and Bep units were allocated to Brighton for Central Division main line use during the 1970s and 1980s?

 

My 1978 Locoshed Book shows 4-Beps 7001-09 and 4-Ceps 7101-11 (minus 7102 - early withdrawal ?) at BI. So an almost equal number, did they just work as 8-car formations, or were 4-Cigs attached at times ?

 

 

 

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17 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

My 1978 Locoshed Book shows 4-Beps 7001-09 and 4-Ceps 7101-11 (minus 7102 - early withdrawal ?) at BI. 

 

 

A quick check on Blood and Custard identifies that 7102 was “damaged by fire at Preston Park sidings 22‑Oct‑75 and 61036 and 70038 both damaged and unit disbanded”.

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7001-9 and 7101-11 sounds about right although other Ceps were sometimes either allocated or loaned as required.  7210 and 7211 were in use paired on the Brighton main line at one time (and upon which I travelled) and IIRC there were more Ceps allocated in the earlier years in order to make up 12-car trains in the Cep-Bep-Cep formation used on the Mid-Sussex and (occasionally) Brighton Main lines.  That would have required around 20 Cep units and IIRC 7101-20 were all at Brighton at one time.  Of those 7001/2 and 7101- 4 were the prototypes with different interiors.   7102 was indeed an early victim succumbing to a fire whilst berthed at Preston Park and being declared surplus to requirements it never ran again.  

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8 hours ago, John M Upton said:

 

Still happens today, there was a couple of weeks late last year when Gatwick Express red Class 387's started turning up in all sorts of odd places including Southampton on one occasion until Wessex Area Control pointed out they weren't actually cleared to run west of Havant and it was sent swiftly home again....

 

Do we know why they are not cleared west of Havant?  The kinematic window should be the same as a 377 (which is cleared) and the only differences I can think of are that a 387 has a pantograph (so do 377/2 and /7 units - a 377/2 has definitely reached Portsmouth and Southampton) and a top speed of 110mph not 100mph which is hardly relevant on those routes.

 

Southern made it known at one point when the service reductions kicked in that GatEx 387s would turn up along the Sussex coast in order to give them some work; the dedicated GatEx train crew are currently employed on Victoria - Brighton services using their 387s vice Southern's 377s as the airport service is suspended.  

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I think it is a paperwork issue, 387's were never signed off to run on Wessex metals as they were never expected to venture that far away from home despite the fact that physically there are all but identical to the 377's that a couple of them stood in for briefly but technically different under the bonnet as it were.

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8 hours ago, Ben04uk said:

Did the Cep and Bep units stay allocated at Brighton until the 1980s?, i.e. the refurbished versions (15XX) ?

 

Short answer - no.  They were replaced on Sussex duties by the later deliveries of 4-Cig and 4-Vep units.  A reduction in on-train catering had already rendered the 4-Bep buffet cars redundant other than when covering a 4-Big duty on the Brighton expresses and their use on Kent had ceased even earlier.  

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There were a small number of ex SWT CEP's I think transferred to Brighton for a short time, used only on the BML if I recall and very short lived.  Mid or late 1990's possibly?

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Perhaps of vague interest, I found the following at Lewes in my latest batch of scans 'dumped' in my 'Personal Galleries'.  Sorry there is not a specific date (September 1991).

 

 

1596 LW Sept 1991.jpg

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1 hour ago, C126 said:

Perhaps of vague interest, I found the following at Lewes in my latest batch of scans 'dumped' in my 'Personal Galleries'.  Sorry there is not a specific date (September 1991).

 

 

 

Many thanks, I wonder if this is the Hastings to Brighton student service mentioned above but the '64' headcode suggests not - anyone know what service the 64 was?

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