Electrical problems

[Signal box]

I have a two loop layout with a crossover to allow the train on the outer loop to get to the sidings, I should be able to run two trains separately but I am finding that one controller is operating both trains at the same time. I have copied a track plan from a Horny book which I know is an old edition so can't quite understand why it isn't working. I am using a duette controller.

 Is it advisable to have an incline on a layout which is 8x4?or would it be to steep? 

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Do you know the part numbers of the points used to make the crossover? I have recently learned that non-isolating set track points have been made available...

 

Gradients on an 8x4 layout to allow one track to cross over another are inevitably steep. Whether 'too steep' is your decision. There is a way to reduce the steepness, at the cost of a more complex construction, have gradients on the approached to the crossing point on both the upper and lower lines.

[DCB]

An idea of the track plan would help.  Normally you can run a train across from one line to the other on a Set track layout on either controller or both controllers, but when the points are set straight then only the inner controller should control the inner and outer controller the outer.

Non isolating points would cause this issue. Probably cheapest and easiest to bin them.

Gradients, well my 6X 4ft 6 has a spiral, its steep but little tanks haul 3 coaches up OK 

1 in 36 is about main line railway max grades,   GWR Halls happily pulled 10 coaches up 1 in 36 and you won't find models which can match it.

8X4 climb up and over and down again is sort of a bit excessive.   If you do have two levels keep the gap between to the absolute minimum 60mm  plus 10mm is do able but 60mm plus 50mm baseboard is a different turkey.

[Signal box]

The part numbers are Hornby r612 with crossover number r615. I haven't tried any pulling any wagons up the incline partly due to making my mind up weather to have an incline, I thought it would look more interesting to start.

  I hope the photos are of some use

[Signal box]

The part numbers are Hornby r612 with crossover number r615. I haven't tried any pulling any wagons up the incline partly due to making my mind up weather to have an incline, I thought it would look more interesting to start.

  I hope the photos are of some use

[The Johnster]

The turnouts in the photos have insulated frogs and the current should go where the turnouts direct it.  A plan of the whole layout would help in finding out why your set up does not isolate inner from outer circuit; it may be to do with how the points are set or some other aspect of your wiring.

[MartynJPearson]

Bear in mind that isolation is only achieved via the rails connected to the frog (the V). The outer rails are live regardless of the setting of the points. So, looking at your first photo, the top rail of the rightmost points is electrically connected to the top rail of the leftmost points. As you set those points, that may well connect other sections of track to that same feed. If you have some configuration somewhere else which means that the other rails are also connected, then that would explain your tracks not being isolated.

 

As others have said, a full track plan will help identify the issue.

[The Johnster]

It will certainly enable us to advise you as to how the points should be set to achieve electrical separation between inner and outer tracks, if, as I suspect, this is the root cause of your issue.

[Signal box]

I have enclosed a photo of the track plan. I have tried the points as per plan but no luck and made sure all is clean.

[Signal box]

Another question if I may , what would the depth be of a street scene with low relief shops etc as  I've had a thought of putting one along the back wall but not sure how much room it would take. Thanks.

[Grovenor]

You don't have seperate inner and outer circuits, you have one circuit that goes round twice, with tracks that allow you to go round once either over or under the bridge but not both at once as the routes cross. So even putting in insulated joiners will not create two seperate circuits. If you want to have two trains running independently without conflict you need to redesign.

Edited April 7, 2020 by Grovenor

[Signal box]

Thanks for that I will try again.

[Il Grifone]

You need at least 6" for a road and buildings, but this would mean a narrow road and very compressed low relief buildings, so ideally rather more is required.

 

IIRC the gradient for the inclined pier sets is around 1 in 20, which is very steep and will severely limit train lengths.

[Campaman]

If you have built the track exactly as that plan then it says in the text that you can either run it as two circuits with two controllers or one continuous run by making sure that point A,B,C & D are set correctly as per the instructions.

[Trainshed]

Hi all, I was also a bit confused by the track plan at first.

You have to set points A, B, C & D to their curved direction to get double loop running.

But you have to be careful, as the two trains will collide at the cross over if they get to it at the same time.

I have shown the 2 loops in red and blue on the attached image

[kevinlms]

12 hours ago, Trainshed said:

Hi all, I was also a bit confused by the track plan at first.

You have to set points A, B, C & D to their curved direction to get double loop running.

But you have to be careful, as the two trains will collide at the cross over if they get to it at the same time.

I have shown the 2 loops in red and blue on the attached image

As implied by the instructions, all 4 points MUST be set exactly as described, otherwise both loops will be connected to the same controller. No ifs or buts.

Assuming hand operated points, to change the route, involves stopping all trains, then doing a tour around the outside of the layout, to change the 4 points, then you can go.

 

The lower station appears to be a pair of loops, but it actually connects the blue & red circuits together. As does the short curved track, between points B & C.

 

Sorry OP, but this track plan has some serious design faults.

[cypherman]

Hi all,

Well I think the only way that this layout will work properly is if it is set up with dcc. Just my humble opinion.

[kevinlms]

5 hours ago, cypherman said:

Hi all,

Well I think the only way that this layout will work properly is if it is set up with dcc. Just my humble opinion.

An interesting point and something that ought to be considered. It wasn't designed particularly well and long before DCC was around.

 

This plan does raise issues about the design of track plans and I'm sure that C.J. Freezer wouldn't have submitted this plan. Sure, some of his designs were not very buildable, mostly because in the early days track geometry, was different to Set track & Streamline of today.

[Signal box]

Thanks for all the replies but have now decided to have a rethink and start  again. 

[Pete the Elaner]

On 09/04/2020 at 12:25, Trainshed said:

Hi all, I was also a bit confused by the track plan at first.

You have to set points A, B, C & D to their curved direction to get double loop running.

But you have to be careful, as the two trains will collide at the cross over if they get to it at the same time.

I have shown the 2 loops in red and blue on the attached image

 

 

Having to set 4 points the correct way to achieve something is my idea of being complex just for the sake of it.

Something simpler would provide more operational realism & be a good deal easier.

 

I had some of Hornby's track plan books in the late 70s/early 80s. There were several plans like this which at my age looked interesting, but when I think about them now, I believe they would have been a real headache to operate & look really nothing more than a board covered with track.