Unknown location

[carlwebus]

Hi there

 

Does anyone know the location  the attached photograph?

 

It looks like somewhere in the UK (judging by the car and the notices and gradient post).

 

But I think it might be Ireland (5'3" gauge)?

 

Also  the loco looks  like it might be Irish?

 

 

 

[AY Mod]

The track gauge looks a bit wide for 2'6" but it looks like a Leek & Manifold Kitson loco. The topography looks right.

[AY Mod]

28 minutes ago, AY Mod said:

The track gauge looks a bit wide for 2'6" but it looks like a Leek & Manifold Kitson loco. The topography looks right.

 

Yup, it's the site of Butterton Halt and this is the location now 
https://maps.app.goo.gl/p1i41B5XKedaFetd6

 

A view back the other way to Swainsley Tunnel  https://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/1956589

[ELTEL]

L & M was my first thought.

 

Terry 

[carlwebus]

Gents

 

You are truly founts of incredible knowledge. 

 

Many thanks!

 

 

[Phil Traxson]

I'm looking at the state of the loco and track and the style of the car, 1930's, and thinking that this was taken during the destruction of the railway.

 

Phil T.

[Sheffield]

I think you are correct. The loco looks dirty, and the pile of stone chippings on the left appears to be ready for the conversion to a footpath.

[carlwebus]

Hi Guys

 

I've been looking through the photographs again  and have  found one,  thanks to A Y Mod, showing Swainsley tunnel, from the Butterton end, complete with track and with a view of a loco approaching the other end of the tunnel.  I'm  wondering if several other photos I've  got of track  formations - including one of the approach to a bridge  work over a  road or stream which  shows track gone and piles of stone and fine  stones - are also Leek & Manifold.  Think that picks up the comments made by Phil Traxson  and Sheffield.  I'll try to  find time to download  some of them onto this post.

 

Thanks again all!

[carlwebus]

As promised: here are some more scans of photos from the job lot that included the Leek and Manifold Kitson.

 

These are but a few of the likely candidates (I think)!

 

I have inserted numbers into the  bottom left hand  corner to help identify the ones we are discussing.

 

Hope you can help!

 

have

[AY Mod]

24 minutes ago, carlwebus said:

As promised: here are some more scans of photos from the job lot that included the Leek and Manifold Kitson.

 

These are but a few of the likely candidates (I think)!

 

I have inserted numbers into the  bottom left hand  corner to help identify the ones we are discussing.

 

Hope you can help!

 

 have

 

9 is Hulme End which is now* recreated as a tearoom. 

5 is the exchange siding at Waterhouses showing a transfer wagon. I like the capstan for a bit of horse/worker shunting.

 

 

Still figuring out the bridges.

 

Cracking pictures; thanks for sharing them!

 

* Not right now of course

[carlwebus]

Thank you A Y Mod!

 

I have a few more that came in the same batch.

 

Don't  want to bore people - but, if you like, I can upload them also?

[AY Mod]

29 minutes ago, carlwebus said:

if you like, I can upload them also?

 

Yes please; it's very interesting material Carl!

[carlwebus]

Thanks again to A Y MOD, ELTEL, Phil Traxson and Sheffield for their help on this.

 

I wonder if any of you have managed to identify any of the extra pics (especially  the bridge ones).

 

Anyway, as A Y MOD expressed an interest in the other "maybe L & M" pics that I have : here they are:

 

Again I have put numbers on the left to aid focus.

 

I think No.10  could be "Nr Beeston Tor".  It looks exactly like the location in an internet pic.  showing  the summer time dry River manifold on the right?

 

I don't think 12 is actually L&M. Platform looks too  high?

 

The road crossing on 13 can hopefully be identified.

 

15 may be standard gauge?

 

16 seems to be bridge number 3?

 

 

[Ramrig]

I wonder if photo13 is where the line crossed what is now the A523 near Waterhouse’s?

[carlwebus]

I think Ramrig is correct. Looking at satelite picture that looks like the only place the railway crossed a road on quite that alignment.

[laurenceb]

No 12 looks to be standard gauge

[Phil Traxson]

12 hours ago, laurenceb said:

No 12 looks to be standard gauge

As does No.15

[carlwebus]

I think Ramrig is correct re picture 13. Looking at satelite picture that looks like the only place the railway crossed a road on quite that alignment.

 

After some further investigation:

• I think picture 4 could be Alan's Bridge over the River Hamp;
• picture 6 may be adjoining the Dafar Road Bridge (or bridge near Beeston Tor Farm [again over  River Hamps] - or just possibly the Bridge where the Manifold Way leaves the A523)?
• Agree that no. 12 is probably standard gauge so not L&M;
• Not sure about No.15.  The original pic of the Kitson by Butterton Halt shows track that looks too wide.  I guess the distant signal may be the  clincher. Did L&M use  such  signals (doubtful?)

 

 

[Ramrig]

I wonder if the standard gauge shots (12 & 15) are taken on the Waterhouse’s  to leekbrook junction section? Brake van ride possibly

Edited May 21, 2020 by Ramrig

[carlwebus]

After  further research I now think that picture 13 is probably  where the L&M crossed Leek Road in Wetton parish?  Its the only place I can see such a pronounced  curve approaching the road crossing and the topography looks  right from google maps/ street view.  Also the road looks right for a country back road. (I know the A523 in 1934 would look pretty rural but I think this is too much so)!

 

Also picture 16 looks right for south of Wetton Mill.  I now think the "3" marker is a mile post (the bridge at that location is about 3 miles from Hulme End and the countryside looks  right from  current geograph photos of the Manifold Way).

 

Also I'm sure that pic 11 is L&M. Again the topography looks  right and the marker post (or  whatever it is) matches that in pic 13 which we all believe is L&M.

[Old Gringo]

Picture 11 is the view across the track of the L & M from the right hand corner of picture 13.

 

Compare the condition and composition of the two stone walls either side of the road way, behind the rotating disc signal protecting the gates on the A523 crossing and the pile of sleepers to the right of photograph 11 and to the left of the track in photo. 13.

 

IMO it is the A523, as the line falls away on quite a gradient into the valley from that point and back in the 1960s, when I first encountered the crossing, the road Southwards always appeared a bit of a climb in a Ford Popular!

 

Edit:  If photo. 16 was the exit from the crossing in photo. 13 then (again IMO) I believe that the tree on the right hand-side would be evident in 13 and the track would not have such a pronounced camber.  Also there is evidence of taller trees on the left-hand side of photo. 16, which I can't make work if my connection between photos. 11 and 13 is correct.

 

2nd edit:  Further confirmation that it is the main Leek to Ashbourne road can be confirmed by comparing the L&GRP photograph used in several of the L & MVR books.  The positions of the telegraph posts, especially the one to the right, with the extra support and the large white post, to the right of photo. 11 against the eastern (whiter) stone wall of the road.  See page 47, of 'Leek & Manifold Valley Light Railway', Lindsey Porter, 1995 for the closest if slightly fuzzy view, or The L & MVR, Keith Turner, 1980 David & Charles, for the same picture, 'waiting for the crossing'.

Edited June 3, 2020 by Old Gringo
additional waffle and references

[carlwebus]

Thank you Old Gringo that's most helpful.  I have ordered the Turner book  which I hope will help me.

 

So:  what  do  you make of picture 16? Any ideas where it might be? What about the  white "3" marker?

[Old Gringo]

The white plate is an LMS bridge plate, which measures 17.5" by 11,25" (compare the size of the plate to the 30" track width of the L &M).   The LMS applied numbers to the bridges on the line and the bridge over Hoo Brook near Wetton Mill carried plate number LMS 18.  (Reference from 'The L & MVLR' by Robert Gratton & RCL publications, 2005, page 207, where the caption says "When the line was built it was Bridge No. 17, but the LMS added a culvert into their bridge book at 4m 35c making this structure No.18").

 

The bridges were numbered from Waterhouses towards Hulme End and this puts bridge number 3 in the Hamps valley.  There's a list of all the bridges on pages 80/81 of Gratton's book and on page 82, I was surprised to find a plan of bridge number 3 at 72 chains, or just short of a mile from Waterhouses.

 

And I've another picture of the level crossing on page 200, of this wonderful book, but this time it has only one gate as a runaway lorry coming from Ashbourne direction took out the gate on the valley side of the crossing on 18th April 1932.  So my memory of the gasping Ford Pop holds good!

 

Hope this helps,

All the very best,

John.

[Phil Traxson]

Further to Old Gringo's comments it has to be remembered that the station at Waterhouses, which is not far behind the photographer in photo 13, is parallel with the road,  the line turns nearly ninety degrees to cross the road and is still turning as it crosses it.

[carlwebus]

Thank you again Old Gringo  and Phil.

 

Picture 7, I now know, shows the bridge near Brown End Farm near the crossing of the A523 nr Waterhouses.

 

That just leaves  me to  confirm the locations of the bridges in pictures 4 and 6!