When did they first appear?

[Prometheus]

‘morning all....

 

I’d appreciate some help please. Can anyone give a definitive date for the introduction of the Graham Farish OO Pannier Tank? I have seen 1970, but also ‘the mid-‘60s’.

 

Also, the Rovex Pannier Tank. Am I correct in assuming that it arrived in 1971?

 

Finally, if one excludes Gaiety, am I again correct in stating that no-one else produced an r-t-r Pannier between 1950ish and 1971?

 

Many thanks all, appreciate your help and trust that you are all well.

 

Tony 

 

 

[Il Grifone]

The GF Pannier appeared around 1960*  https://www.brightontoymuseum.co.uk/index/Category:Graham_Farish_00_gauge

 

According to this site http://www.hornbyguide.com/year_details_pricelist.asp?yearid=9

the Hornby pannier tank appeared in 1972.

 

AFAIK the Gaiety model/thing was the only R-T-R pannier tank. K's did  kits for an 8750 and 97xx. The later also as a 'Bodyline' kit for the HD 0-6-0T chassis, so these too were around 1960. There was also a Wills kit for a 1751 (IIRC) as pannier and saddle tank.

 

* The link shows a 1964 catalogue with the pannier but we moved in 1964 and it (and the re-released prairie) had been available for some time. I'll try and find a more accurate date.

[Prometheus]

Many thanks - I had suspected that you'd know!

 

Best wishes

 

Tony

[Il Grifone]

Thanks!

Checking (which I should have done first) the Wills pannier is an 1854. I forgot they also did a 94xx to fit on a Tri-ang 0-6-0T chassis. (I shouldn't have forgotten, as I have one!)

Apparently Ramsey's Guide gives 1961 as the introduction date of both pannier and prairie tanks.

 

Best wishes from locked down Sardinia, (There are much worse places to be locked down!)

[Prometheus]

...and indeed much worse places that a very sunny Gower right now, too.

 

I must get myself a copy of Ramsey's one of these days.

 

Tony

[Il Grifone]

Our library used to have one, but it seems to have been removed from the listing. It was quite ancient.

 

No help at the moment of course!

[Prometheus]

Have just purchased the latest edition [9th] for the club library from Rails of Sheffield. Very good value at £34.99 for two volumes, post free.

 

Tony

[Steamport Southport]

Try the Model Loco Database. Done by Pat Hammond when he was the editor of MREMag. Or not as it seems, I think that accolade goes to Dennis Lovett. I'll thank/credit both of them.

 

http://www.mre-mag.com/locoindex.php?mu=0

 

1961 apparently for the Grafar 94XX.

 

Graham Farish   1961   OO   Not Currently Produced    Ready to run.

 

For the Hornby 8750

 

Tri-ang Hornby  1971   OO    Tools Taken Over               Ready to run.

→  Hornby          1972    OO    Not Currently Produced    

Tools used to produce Duck in Thomas range (introduced 1987).

 

 

 

 

Jason

Edited April 7, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[Prometheus]

Many thanks Jason - useful link.

 

Tony

[Devo63]

My father had both the Graham Farish 9400 and the Prairie in the early 1960's so the 1961 date appears to be right. I haven't as yet been able to find a review of the 9400 class although I must admit to not searching very hard. I have found an advertisement for the Prairie in a double page spread in the March-April 1951 Railway Modeller. Sold at the time as a kit the prices were: Unpainted 79/6, Black 84/- and Green 89/- plus 1/- for P&P. The advert states a limit of two locos per order and only available direct from Formo Products.

I have a 9400 from the 1970's which is still going strong. The body appears to be the same as the earlier model but the chassis and motor were improved. This is just from memory as my father had sold his original model prior to me taking up the hobby. The only items he had left when I became interested were an HD 'Cardiff Castle', an original release Triang 'Lord of the Isles' and a Triang 'Nellie' 0-4-0T plus a few Triang coaches.

 

Dave R.    

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Prometheus said:

Have just purchased the latest edition [9th] for the club library from Rails of Sheffield. Very good value at £34.99 for two volumes, post free.

 

Very good as a catalogue of what is known to have been produced and when, but the prices cited are now a long way out of date (c2014?), so it is very wise to do a lot more research on prices before buying, if thinking of parting with a significant sum.

[Prometheus]

To be honest, I always take price guides with a pinch or two anyway. The value here for me [and the club] are the production details and dates. I'm guessing that the price guidance is for mint / boxed stock, too: our stocksales tend to be anything but!

 

Tony

[Prometheus]

...and a final Gaiety question for the collected intelligence [to help with a brief article in my club's monthly newsletter].

 

I have three Gaiety 57xx Panniers, all very nice and all runners. All are different in some way to from each other. One is fitted with what looks like a heavily adapted Triang chassis, one of the early ones with the heavy solid spoked wheels. In two places on one of the separate chassis side-plates, are the marks M/H/I in small embossed capitals. Can anyone tell me what this signifies?

 

Many thanks once again.

 

Tony

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I don't know what M/H/A signifies.

 

It may be the part reference.

 

The lettering does appear on Tri-ang Railways chassis.

 

I thought that it was on the weight block though?

 

Hattons did market the Gaiety Pannier bodies mounted on the Tri-ang Railways 0-6-0 chassis.

 

Also a version mounted on the Hornby Dublo R1 0-6-0 chassis.

 

Both being 2-rail.

 

Edited April 7, 2020 by Sarahagain
housekeeping, spelling, etc...

[Il Grifone]

The limit of two models would have had something to do with rationing and/or Korean war shortages, though the price set a limit by itself! Much dodgy zinc alloy dates from this period due to a shortage of magnesium. My two examples of first series Farish locomotives (G.P.5 (Black 5) and prairie body) seem to have escaped, but I do have some wagons that have and all the Pullman cars appear to be affected.

 

I believe there are variations in the pickups of the 94xx, but whether this is an indicator of date I don't know. It has a serious error in having bunker steps on the driver's side (as does The Lima version?) and the bunker steps are fragile. They are not immune from zincpest either.

 

The Gaiety pannier has horizontally mounted motor which drives through flimsy gears to the front axle*. The driving wheels are similar to those of the Dublo 0-6-2T and 0-6-0T in excess of spokes and tyre profile. Pickups are two bits of thick wire to to the wheels from the brush holders (crude and tend to jump out of position) for the 2 rail version and a thick piece or metal for the 3 rail. (On the N2 tank I have this ensures that she is incapable of pulling anything).

*The brass pinion on the armature tends to wear (it drives a crown wheel stamped from steel sheet), but can be turned around to keep the model running.

 

The prices in Ramsay's are for mint boxed and based on prices obtained (auctions?).

The usually quoted devaluations are:-

The box is worth as much as the contents!!!!!!!  

Mint means just that perfect and never taken out of the box - this does not exclude damage - see below

Small chip less 10%-20% (excellent)

 

I have to take the dog out will finish when I get back.

 

more chips but presentable less 20%-30% (very good)

OK (no damage) but tired (about the limit for display) less 40%-50% (average/good)

Very tired (possibly minor damage) less 50-70% (play-worn)

Damaged/parts missing less 70%-90% (or more)

A repaint usually values as  average/good

These are all very approximate of course and open to argument, as are the valuations. Some highly valued stuff I wouldn't give house room!

 

I was warned once to check Dublo EMUs, as the box can attach itself to the finish so that the top side is immaculate and the underside knackered (of limited use as These are invariably out of the Grifone friendly price range!) This advice will apply to the whole range.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Prometheus]

Thanks for your reply Sarah.

 

You are correct, it is a Triang marking and it appears both on the weight-end as well as under the motor itself. My error was not examining the chassis carefully enough: I thought that the markings were on the brass side-plates that had been screwed into the adapted Triang chassis. I have two panniers with this arrangement and, clearly, it is a retailer job.

 

David, thanks, too.

 

I think that your observation about the impact of the Korean War is probably correct: it created all sorts of shortages as production was put onto a war footing. Maybe JV Murcott also found making their castings  for the motor trade more profitable - and practical - in the long run too? I guess we'll never know for certain.

 

The photo below shows my three Panniers, all in different shades of green [no repaints here] and with the Gaiety chassis on the left, a Triang chassis with Triang wheels in the centre and a Triang chassis with Romfords on the right.

 

 

I have also attached some photos of the original Gaiety chassis for those who have not seen one, including one which shows the gear damage caused by the [harder] crown wheel.

 

 

Finally, I found this on eBay last night [so apologies for their poor photo]. It is clearly a Gaiety body [although the raised cab-side moulding for the number is a little larger and it lacks the horizontal handrail on the back of the bunker], but one which has been mounted on a push-along chassis. There is a Gaiety N2 on eBay right now also with a similar chassis [but incomplete]. This Pannier's body is held together with wire, the casting having split lengthways along its join [or maybe was never fixed in the first place?].

 

 

I do appreciate the responses and I'll incorporate what is new in the newsletter article with acknowledgements.

 

Tony

 

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Prometheus
Various grammatical disasters

[Il Grifone]

I'm not sure about that one, as to whether it's a J.V.M. product or not. It's clearly related to the Gaiety body we all know and love/loathe, but is split lengthways into two parts with locate with spigots. Probably these are broken or a loose fit requiring the wire to hold them together. The smokebox and  tank front are a separate casting. I have one stashed away somewhere, but it has suffered severe heat damage to the right hand bunker side. I was going to do a transplant of the cab from one of the later castings which has lost its boiler and tanks (nothing to do with me!), but the alloy is very hard and I decided to abort the project. Maybe one day I'll try and tidy it up (or maybe not!) as it's even cruder than the later effort.

The N2s on weird push-along chassis were from later on and I think they were to clear stocks. There was little point in fitting a powered chassis as the Dublo model is almost identical. (Really there was no point in making it in the first place for the same reason. At least the Trackmaster/Tri-ang/Kirdon version is nearer to scale.)

Edited April 8, 2020 by Il Grifone

[5050]

On 07/04/2020 at 15:29, Devo63 said:

 I have found an advertisement for the Prairie in a double page spread in the March-April 1951 Railway Modeller. Sold at the time as a kit the prices were: Unpainted 79/6, Black 84/- and Green 89/- plus 1/- for P&P. The advert states a limit of two locos per order and only available direct from Formo Products.

The same as this one?  From Model Railway News April 1951, a double page spread.

 

 

[Il Grifone]

That's the one! I'm not sure about the "Steam chest and so on". That safety valve casing put me off  from a young age. The steam pipes are in bare copper and need a coat of black paint. The crosshead and slide bars look like they were copied from the Rovex 'Princess' rather than the prototype and the piston rods got lost in translation. The representation of the number plates also leaves something to be desired. Perhaps I'm too critical, it is the only model of an 81xx AFAIK.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Il Grifone

[Devo63]

The Railway Modeller ad shows a bit of the internal mechanism via cut-aways.

 

 

[5050]

Yes, I've got that one as well from the Feb '51 MRN.  Somewhere I have (or possibly had and might have passed it on) a Prairie body only along with a Black 5 body only and a Stewart Reidpath side tank body.  Picked up for coppers from a members sales stand at Shipley show a few years ago.  All in a slightly (!) distressed state.  I took pity on them as they would have been skipped after the show otherwise.

 

Also meant to add that I've never seen one of the weird motors 'in the flesh'.  One day I might find a complete loco - but it would have to be cheap!

Edited April 8, 2020 by 5050

[Il Grifone]

The motor is indeed 'weird'. They cleverly made the most of it in the ads. It's two pole and uses switches rather than brushes and a commutator. Drive is via a centrifugal clutch, which allows the "long over-run". Whether traction tyres on the centre axle are a 'good idea' I'll leave others to judge. Likewise, whether bolting some parts together counts as 'modelling'. 4½ oz. (125g) drawbar pull is about double the capability of a Dublo Pacific.

[Prometheus]

A Farish 3-rail large Prairie posted on here by Evanelpus in October 2013:

 

Tony

 

Edited April 8, 2020 by Prometheus
to correct some stupidity

[Ruffnut Thorston]

20 hours ago, Prometheus said:

Thanks for your reply Sarah.

 

You are correct, it is a Triang marking and it appears both on the weight-end as well as under the motor itself. My error was not examining the chassis carefully enough: I thought that the markings were on the brass side-plates that had been screwed into the adapted Triang chassis. I have two panniers with this arrangement and, clearly, it is a retailer job.

 

David, thanks, too.

Snipped

20 hours ago, Prometheus said:

 

I do appreciate the responses and I'll incorporate what is new in the newsletter article with acknowledgements.

 

Tony

 

 

 

 

Hi Tony.

 

I presume that you are aware that the pre 1961 Tri-ang Railways chassis were plate frame chassis, with side plates screwed to two separate weight blocks. The rear block forming the base for the motor.

 

The weight blocks that had couplings mounted on them were modified in 1958-1959, to take the MK3 tension lock couplings.

 

Later plate frame chassis were rivetted together, before the one piece cast chassis came in with the introduction of the Seuthe type smoke units in 1961.

 

Some locomotives retained the plate frame chassis.

 

The R.355 "Nellie" type 0-4-0 chassis, and the R.350 S.R. "L1" 4-4-0 chassis being examples.

[Prometheus]

Sarah, thank you for that information: I had absolutely no idea at all that that was the case.

 

I did think it odd that both chassis had been modified in exactly the same way, identically neat and of the same proportions, but now I know why: that's how they left the factory!

 

I suppose this is what comes of living in a family in which one's father would tolerate nothing but Trix Twin and only tinplate and Mazac were ever allowed into the house. Even Hornby Dublo was too proletarian for him!

 

Tony