Bass Charrington grain wagons - where did they operate?

[pinzaboy]

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could advise where and when the red liveried Bass Charrington 4-wheel grain hoppers operated?

 

Here's a Bachmann one I've just weathered with another 5 to do. Knowing where and when they ran would help me decide on the correct traction. 

 

Thanks in advance 

 

Tim 

[Steamport Southport]

Don't go too mad acquiring them. I think there were only a handful of them.

 

https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bchgrain

 

 

 

Jason

[Aire Head]

Presumably they were around Burton on Trent?

[pinzaboy]

Yes I think Burton on Trent sounds right. And maybe they came from East Anglia but could it have been Scotland ?

Tim

[cctransuk]

On 07/04/2020 at 18:51, pinzaboy said:

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could advise where and when the red liveried Bass Charrington 4-wheel grain hoppers operated?

 

Here's a Bachmann one I've just weathered with another 5 to do. Knowing where and when they ran would help me decide on the correct traction. 

 

Thanks in advance 

 

Tim 

 

As per Paul Bartlett - https://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/bchgrain - they were for internal use within the breweries of Burton-on-Trent only; they would not have ventured onto BR tracks.

 

(Incidently, Paul refers to them as being COVHOPs; they were indeed covered hoppers, but these wagons were usually referred to as GRAIN hoppers - COVHOPs being used for powders).

 

John Isherwood.

[Fat Controller]

Reading Paul's comments, he seems to suggest that these wagons were used on BR metals when the internal railway ceased operations, running from various East Anglian terminals to Burton. 

[cctransuk]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

Reading Paul's comments, he seems to suggest that these wagons were used on BR metals when the internal railway ceased operations, running from various East Anglian terminals to Burton. 

 

Sorry - missed that.

 

John Isherwood.

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

 

Sorry - missed that.

 

John Isherwood.

Easily done, especially as it's normally the converse, with ex-revenue vehicles going into internal use.

[doilum]

As a student in the mid 70s, I worked for a couple of summers in a maltsters. If I recall correctly, the transport of grain was very seasonal ( hence the need to take on additional labour). The rail siding was disused and overgrown but an old employee told me the last traffic had been to Guinness circa 1970. The barley arrived by road, usually in 30 ton tippers that normally moved coal to the power station, and left as malt in bespoke covered bulk carriers or bagged in vans. My impression was that the entire year's stock was delivered in just four or five weeks. I was given to believe that the best barley had already been bought and paid for. The distilleries paid top dollar and might seek out just a handful of fields nation wide. The breweries would then have second choice the rest going for animal feed. This might not be the full picture but hope it helps.

Edited April 10, 2020 by doilum
Predictive text error

[laurenceb]

Malting barley is a pig to grow, it is sping sown so lower yeilding. Then when it is harvested the buyer samples it and it is tested for nitrogen levels,if they are toohigh it will be rejected. So you are left with a crop that probably just covers its costs if you are lucky

[doilum]

12 hours ago, laurenceb said:

Malting barley is a pig to grow, it is sping sown so lower yeilding. Then when it is harvested the buyer samples it and it is tested for nitrogen levels,if they are toohigh it will be rejected. So you are left with a crop that probably just covers its costs if you are lucky

Unless the man from Johnnie Walkers says "yes"!

[laurenceb]

In our case it was more likely to be the man from Bass and he say "no"

[Catkins]

On 10/04/2020 at 23:04, laurenceb said:

Malting barley is a pig to grow, it is sping sown so lower yeilding. Then when it is harvested the buyer samples it and it is tested for nitrogen levels,if they are toohigh it will be rejected. So you are left with a crop that probably just covers its costs if you are lucky

And if the merchant (buyer) says yes, the Maltsters can still say no when the barley gets delivered.

[jim.snowdon]

An internet search turned up this picture of two of, in the original Bass livery, along with more details of their history and usage -

 

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=5103&SearchType=2&ThemeID=266

 

Interestingly, they were not used for the transport of grain as harvested, but of malted barley. Further testament to their being internal use only is that there is no sign of any plates registering them as private owner wagons able to run on the main line network, despite the generous provision of standard label clips.

 

Jim

[doilum]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

An internet search turned up this picture of two of, in the original Bass livery, along with more details of their history and usage -

 

https://www.search.staffspasttrack.org.uk/Details.aspx?&ResourceID=5103&SearchType=2&ThemeID=266

 

Interestingly, they were not used for the transport of grain as harvested, but of malted barley. Further testament to their being internal use only is that there is no sign of any plates registering them as private owner wagons able to run on the main line network, despite the generous provision of standard label clips.

 

Jim

That would make sense as the barley would be collected by lorry from individual farms. Many maltkilns had a main line location.

Did Burton have a central maltkilns? I do have the book but it resides in the club library, beyond my present reach!

[Mark Saunders]

1 hour ago, jim.snowdon said:

An internet search turned up this picture of two of, in the original Bass livery, along with more details of their history and usage -

 

These are different vans as they are twin compartment as can be seen by the two discharge wheels!

[laurenceb]

8 minutes ago, doilum said:

That would make sense as the barley would be collected by lorry from individual farms. Many maltkilns had a main line location.

Did Burton have a central maltkilns? I do have the book but it resides in the club library, beyond my present reach!

There were maltings all over the town

[jim.snowdon]

13 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

These are different vans as they are twin compartment as can be seen by the two discharge wheels!

They're simply the original design as built by Hurst Nelson, and patterned off the LMS design. There are obviously two variants of the same basic design. 

 

Jim

[Catkins]

14 hours ago, doilum said:

That would make sense as the barley would be collected by lorry from individual farms. Many maltkilns had a main line location.

Did Burton have a central maltkilns? I do have the book but it resides in the club library, beyond my present reach!

This following post is not 100% accurate, however it is made with the knowledge of recent history, and my own current employment in agricultural transport.

Historically, the maltings (malt kilns) were located close to the barley fields, certainly in East Anglia, as exampled by the Bass Maltings at Sleaford, Crisp Malting Group at Great Ryburgh (Fakenham), Muntons at Stowmarket, and the Maltings (now disused) at both Dereham and North Elmham - there will have been others that I am unaware of.

regarding the transport, the harvested barley would be taken to a grain store on the farm, or directly to the maltings if not too far, by tractor and trailer. From the farm it would have then been transported by lorry to the maltings, and then the malted barley would be loaded onto a train for delivery to the brewery - all the maltings that I have mentioed above are next to a railway line.

 

Currently, Barley Malting is done on a large scale in centralised locations, or by large companies. I have transported Barley from East Anglia - 29 tonnes on the road for less than 3 hours - to Soufflet Malt UK in Burton on Trent, I have then reloaded malted barley from there to go to Manchester or Salmesbury, again 29 tonnes on the road for less than 3 hours.
Most of the small, or in the case of Bass at Sleaford not so small, maltings have been closed because they are no longer economic to operate - Crisp Maltings at Great Ryburgh have expanded their site and have three others in the UK, Muntons at Stowmarket have expanded, and are currently investing in the site, and Soufflet Malt UK is part of a multi-national group.

 

it is a similar story for Hops.

[pinzaboy]

Thanks for all your replies so far!

A lot of interesting information that I was totally ignorant of. 

 

Tim

[Colossus]

On 07/04/2020 at 18:51, pinzaboy said:

Hi

I was wondering if anyone could advise where and when the red liveried Bass Charrington 4-wheel grain hoppers operated?

 

Here's a Bachmann one I've just weathered with another 5 to do. Knowing where and when they ran would help me decide on the correct traction. 

 

Thanks in advance 

 

Tim 

 

 

Hi Tim,

 

I think I can flesh out this a bit and correct a couple of earlier remarks. Vehicles of this type were originally purchased by Bass (and Worthington)  for 'internal user' use in the 1950s to transport finished brewing malt from the garners in various maltings to the breweries, all in various areas of Burton. The first ones bought in 1956 and more in 1959 were built by Hurst Nelson and later, another eleven (numbered Bass 12-18) and Worthington now 3-6) came from Charles Roberts. At this period they were in grey livery. I'm guessing no 23 modelled, was from a yet later purchase. Previously, handling of barley (for malting) or finished malt was moved around the Bass Worthington system in ex MR vans, first in sacks and then using converted interiors.

The thing that dates this model is the name "Bass Charrington"- this was Britain's biggest brewing group and was formed in 1967 (Charrington United Breweries merging with Bass M&B). It's a key date as it was also the year the Bass railway system was abandoned and dismantled - all apart from the line from the main line into Shobnall Maltings. Shobnall in the north- west side of Burton was their biggest and fully mechanised maltings facility and where all production of malt made from barley for the group became concentrated at.

So even though, to all intents and purposes, Bass abandoned their rail use in (July) 1967, and the extensive rail system around these maltings was heavily cut back, the road from Leicester Jn (half a mile south of Burton station) into Bass' Shobnall Maltings was kept open to continue taking barley by rail as we went into the 1970s. Various locations in east Anglia had always supplied the vast majority of barley for Bass -this didn't change just because Bass abandoned its internal railway. So your van belongs to the 1967-78 period and was used solely for transporting barley, for malting, from various east Anglian destinations, into Bass' Shobnall Maltings. Ironic as Bass Worthington group (as it was in the 1950s until 1961) had obtained these vans for 'internal user' - yet they ended up bringing barley fron eastern England to Burton main line.

I've seen one picture of a train of grain arriving at Shobnall in the mid 70s behind a class 31 - the pic may have been in "Power of the 31s" ( which I don't own a copy of) but I could easily be wrong - it could be elsewhere. I saw it flicking through second hand books at an exhibition. I believe a class 08 was employed at Shobnall to shunt the vans, presumably from the exchange sidings. 

As an aside, in "The Railways Around Burton upon Trent" [H N Twells], is a pic of similar 20t grain vans being shunted into Ind Coope brewery (close to Burton station) as late as 1978. This was a separate company but shows barley (or maybe already malted barley) was still arriving by rail late 70s. After that all grain transport went into the road.

Hope this helps Tim.

 

Richard.

[pinzaboy]

7 hours ago, Colossus said:

 

 

Hi Tim,

 

I think I can flesh out this a bit and correct a couple of earlier remarks. Vehicles of this type were originally purchased by Bass (and Worthington)  for 'internal user' use in the 1950s to transport finished brewing malt from the garners in various maltings to the breweries, all in various areas of Burton. The first ones bought in 1956 and more in 1959 were built by Hurst Nelson and later, another eleven (numbered Bass 12-18) and Worthington now 3-6) came from Charles Roberts. At this period they were in grey livery. I'm guessing no 23 modelled, was from a yet later purchase. Previously, handling of barley (for malting) or finished malt was moved around the Bass Worthington system in ex MR vans, first in sacks and then using converted interiors.

The thing that dates this model is the name "Bass Charrington"- this was Britain's biggest brewing group and was formed in 1967 (Charrington United Breweries merging with Bass M&B). It's a key date as it was also the year the Bass railway system was abandoned and dismantled - all apart from the line from the main line into Shobnall Maltings. Shobnall in the north- west side of Burton was their biggest and fully mechanised maltings facility and where all production of malt made from barley for the group became concentrated at.

So even though, to all intents and purposes, Bass abandoned their rail use in (July) 1967, and the extensive rail system around these maltings was heavily cut back, the road from Leicester Jn (half a mile south of Burton station) into Bass' Shobnall Maltings was kept open to continue taking barley by rail as we went into the 1970s. Various locations in east Anglia had always supplied the vast majority of barley for Bass -this didn't change just because Bass abandoned its internal railway. So your van belongs to the 1967-78 period and was used solely for transporting barley, for malting, from various east Anglian destinations, into Bass' Shobnall Maltings. Ironic as Bass Worthington group (as it was in the 1950s until 1961) had obtained these vans for 'internal user' - yet they ended up bringing barley fron eastern England to Burton main line.

I've seen one picture of a train of grain arriving at Shobnall in the mid 70s behind a class 31 - the pic may have been in "Power of the 31s" ( which I don't own a copy of) but I could easily be wrong - it could be elsewhere. I saw it flicking through second hand books at an exhibition. I believe a class 08 was employed at Shobnall to shunt the vans, presumably from the exchange sidings. 

As an aside, in "The Railways Around Burton upon Trent" [H N Twells], is a pic of similar 20t grain vans being shunted into Ind Coope brewery (close to Burton station) as late as 1978. This was a separate company but shows barley (or maybe already malted barley) was still arriving by rail late 70s. After that all grain transport went into the road.

Hope this helps Tim.

 

Richard.

Thanks very much Richard.

 

That info is very interesting and helps me understand how these wagons were used.

 

Regards 

 

Tim

[Colossus]

Glad to help Tim. The main thing to remember is "Bass Charrington" as a name only came into being in 1967 so accurate portrayal of that model is after this date. And as I said, it was ironic it was the date that Bass effectively closed its railways and went almost entirely on to the road. But they were a huge brewing concern and such was the massive demand for malt in their brewing, Shobnall continued to be supplied with bulk barley by train for about another decade using wagons like these.

 

Someone above mentioned Sleaford Maltings. This enormous maltings was built by Bass in 1902 but efficiencies in malt production such as moving from 'floor maltings' to mechanised drum maltings meant Bass closed Sleaford by 1959. Bass also had maltings at Retford and Lincoln and a contract with a maltings in Grantham in the earlier 20th C and numerous different maltings around Burton. But Shobnall was destined to be their key facility . So high was the demand from Bass for barley from the 1860s onwards, many locations in counties from Lincolnshire south to Essex supplied barley destined for Burton. Even after 1967 when the newly formed national brewing group Bass Charrington's malt production was centred entirely on Shobnall, the quantity of barley required was colossal and the contents of those Bass Charrington grain hoppers will have been drawn from all over East Anglia. I'm not sure where it was centralised at, i.e., where the wagons were loaded.

 

As an aside, malting used to be seasonal and to cope with the heavy work of turning grain on maltings floors, Burton used to have an annual influx of seasonal labour from eastern England. Nicknamed 'Norkies' by the Burtonians, they will have certainly travelled from areas associated with barley production and many of these will still have been barley areas in the 1970s. In the decade 1890-1900, Bass engaged workers from locations such as: Woodbridge, Bury St Edmunds, Ipswich, Halesworth, Mildenhall, Bungay, Newmarket (Suffolk); Harleston, Swaffham Diss and Thetford (and others) in Norfolk and one or two places in Essex such as Mistley and Manningtree.

[pinzaboy]

29 minutes ago, Colossus said:

Glad to help Tim. The main thing to remember is "Bass Charrington" as a name only came into being in 1967 so accurate portrayal of that model is after this date. And as I said, it was ironic it was the date that Bass effectively closed its railways and went almost entirely on to the road. But they were a huge brewing concern and such was the massive demand for malt in their brewing, Shobnall continued to be supplied with bulk barley by train for about another decade using wagons like these.

 

Someone above mentioned Sleaford Maltings. This enormous maltings was built by Bass in 1902 but efficiencies in malt production such as moving from 'floor maltings' to mechanised drum maltings meant Bass closed Sleaford by 1959. Bass also had maltings at Retford and Lincoln and a contract with a maltings in Grantham in the earlier 20th C and numerous different maltings around Burton. But Shobnall was destined to be their key facility . So high was the demand from Bass for barley from the 1860s onwards, many locations in counties from Lincolnshire south to Essex supplied barley destined for Burton. Even after 1967 when the newly formed national brewing group Bass Charrington's malt production was centred entirely on Shobnall, the quantity of barley required was colossal and the contents of those Bass Charrington grain hoppers will have been drawn from all over East Anglia. I'm not sure where it was centralised at, i.e., where the wagons were loaded.

 

As an aside, malting used to be seasonal and to cope with the heavy work of turning grain on maltings floors, Burton used to have an annual influx of seasonal labour from eastern England. Nicknamed 'Norkies' by the Burtonians, they will have certainly travelled from areas associated with barley production and many of these will still have been barley areas in the 1970s. In the decade 1890-1900, Bass engaged workers from locations such as: Woodbridge, Bury St Edmunds, Ipswich, Halesworth, Mildenhall, Bungay, Newmarket (Suffolk); Harleston, Swaffham Diss and Thetford (and others) in Norfolk and one or two places in Essex such as Mistley and Manningtree.

Amazing information - really interesting.

Thanks so much for taking the time to expand on the arrangements that were undertaken.

 

Tim

[davefreight]

From old TOPS records known loading points for these grain vans when in main line use were Mistley and Ipswich, both RW Paul at Ipswich Docks and Ipswich Maltings at Ipswich Griffen Wharf, but there could have been other loading points in East Anglia.  I have a notion that by 1976 they were lettered 'To Work Between Eastern Region and Burton-on-Trent'.  In all these flows to Burton they worked alongside similar BR Grain Vans.