Hornby 2020 range mk1 RB

[andyman7]

On 23/05/2020 at 13:06, phil-b259 said:

 

This is not going to be a Railroad model. It will be released as part of the standard Hornby range.

 

However as I pointed out up thread the lack of certain things which we have come to expect as standard from a main range item like a close coupling mechanism is absent.

 

Thus this RB (and the previously released BSO, etc) are a bit like the Tornado model. Moulding / construction wise its done to a Railroad spec to keep costs down but is given a premium decoration finish like the rest of the main range items. This is a rather disappointing strategy - the days of producing such 'half & half' models - particularly of things that were built in large numbers (as opposed to one off prototypes) should be over.

The problem is that there are those that want the full fat model and are happy to pay £60+ a coach (which is where we are with Bachmann newly tooled releases); and those that want a decent looking rake of, say, five coaches but cannot justify an outlay of hundreds of pounds. The dimensionally accurate and well decorated Hornby offerings provide a great solution at pretty much half the cost of the fully-specified offering.

 

Unlike continental H0 models, the UK has never quite got the hang of a standardised Close Coupling Mechanism, and I've found that even without them, as long as a coupling pocket is present (rather than the coupling bar moulded on as in the old days) reasonable close coupling can be achieved with no more fiddling about than is required with UK CCMs. Let's face it - if your train is going round 2nd radius curves, then you have already accepted quite a compromise on scale......

Edited February 28, 2021 by andyman7

[robertcwp]

Just looked at some photos and even those of the first batch seem to have only the end step about a third of the way up from new or nearly new. See photo of an SR one in Parkin in 1962.

[Joseph_Pestell]

On 23/05/2020 at 13:06, phil-b259 said:

 

This is not going to be a Railroad model. It will be released as part of the standard Hornby range.

 

However as I pointed out up thread the lack of certain things which we have come to expect as standard from a main range item like a close coupling mechanism is absent.

 

Thus this RB (and the previously released BSO, etc) are a bit like the Tornado model. Moulding / construction wise its done to a Railroad spec to keep costs down but is given a premium decoration finish like the rest of the main range items. This is a rather disappointing strategy - the days of producing such 'half & half' models - particularly of things that were built in large numbers (as opposed to one off prototypes) should be over.

 

Thanks for flagging this up. I am not going to pay a premium price for a coach that does not have a close coupling mechanism. I will buy something older and add the close coupling gizmo.

 

Unable to go into a shop and look for myself, I take it that Railroad Mk1s do not have a close coupling mechanism. The pictures on Hornby's website are inconclusive.

[robertcwp]

4 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

Thanks for flagging this up. I am not going to pay a premium price for a coach that does not have a close coupling mechanism. I will buy something older and add the close coupling gizmo.

 

Unable to go into a shop and look for myself, I take it that Railroad Mk1s do not have a close coupling mechanism. The pictures on Hornby's website are inconclusive.

Correct, all the Hornby Mark 1s have the couplings mounted on the bogie.  I don't think the RB will be at a 'premium price'. Rather I think it will be priced rather lower than Bachmann Mark 1s are now.  List price of the RB is £34.99. Bachmann Mark 1s are £48.95 per their website.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Reading back through this thread, it seems that Hornby have got themselves into a muddle again with their marketing. The price of this model is not that of the premium products. It is priced at what we might call Railroad+. Not unreasonable to charge more for a catering vehicle because the tooling has to be amortised over far fewer units than an SK. So why don't they just put it in a Railroad box.

[Joseph_Pestell]

1 minute ago, robertcwp said:

Correct, all the Hornby Mark 1s have the couplings mounted on the bogie.  I don't think the RB will be at a 'premium price'. Rather I think it will be priced rather lower than Bachmann Mark 1s are now.  List price of the RB is £34.99. Bachmann Mark 1s are £48.95 per their website.

 

All the Hornby Mk1s, not just Railroad. That explains why I can't spot a difference in the catalogue photos.

 

Somewhat assured by photos in this thread that the Hornby can be close coupled so long as curves wide enough.

[robertcwp]

8 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

All the Hornby Mk1s, not just Railroad. That explains why I can't spot a difference in the catalogue photos.

 

Somewhat assured by photos in this thread that the Hornby can be close coupled so long as curves wide enough.

Yes, the only difference seems to be that Railroad ones don't have as much decoration, eg no 'no smoking' signs on windows and possibly other lettering missed off.

 

[Enterprisingwestern]

13 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

All the Hornby Mk1s, not just Railroad. That explains why I can't spot a difference in the catalogue photos.

 

Somewhat assured by photos in this thread that the Hornby can be close coupled so long as curves wide enough.

 

There are ways and means, I use a variety of Keen/Kadee/Stevenson close couplers on Bachmann and Hornby mk1's, no more of a fiddle than anything else tbh.

[davidw]

On 23/05/2020 at 10:38, Flood said:

The only other thing I can think of is that an RBR would have had the bright orange plastic moulded seats, remember them? Obviously they would have had false ceilings with fluorescent lights but on a model you won't see them.

Modellers should put the orange curtains in as well, they really make a difference:

From Flickr (Ian Docwra).

 

If I modelled a roof like that there'd be howls of protest. Thanks for posting shows how shabby a roof can be and not a hint of ribs

 

[truffy]

Ultra-realism is not always the modeller's best friend!

[spamcan61]

1 hour ago, robertcwp said:

Yes, the only difference seems to be that Railroad ones don't have as much decoration, eg no 'no smoking' signs on windows and possibly other lettering missed off.

 

I think originally (2014?) the two differences were decoration, as you point out; and plastic wheels on the RR models, metal on the full fat. Not sure if that's still the case mind you.

[andyman7]

2 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

 

All the Hornby Mk1s, not just Railroad. That explains why I can't spot a difference in the catalogue photos.

 

Somewhat assured by photos in this thread that the Hornby can be close coupled so long as curves wide enough.

Yes, on 3rd radius curves it is possible to get much closer coupling that was possible with the older ex-Triang Mk1s.

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

On ‎23‎/‎05‎/‎2020 at 13:06, phil-b259 said:

...This is a rather disappointing strategy - the days of producing such 'half & half' models - particularly of things that were built in large numbers (as opposed to one off prototypes) should be over.

I might wish it so, but have to concede that Hornby and the dealers they will consult as their direct customers, are going to be following the money rather than shooting at a fixed standard.

 

2 hours ago, davidw said:

... and not a hint of ribs

This is so clear in photographs, that there should never have been any representation of them on models. If anyone has good access to a full file of 'The Engineer' BR publicised the butt welding process employed to join the roof panels with a flush profile that required no further finishing.

[Phil Bullock]

So who is going to be first to transfer the underfloor gubbins and body on to a Bachmann chassis to get close coupling? Got a couple in my spares box waiting....

[phil-b259]

6 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

So who is going to be first to transfer the underfloor gubbins and body on to a Bachmann chassis to get close coupling? Got a couple in my spares box waiting....

I’m thinking of whether I can bodge something using those Keen system retro-fit close coupling mechs.

 

From past experience, providing the adjacent couches CCM has a return to centre spring then the Keen product works OK.

[adb968008]

I try to run my Hornby mk1’s away from my Bachmann mk1’s.

I find the shape a bit different, however I do run Replica Railways RB with The Bachmann ones, with a change of coupling and flush glazing the profile fits nicer.

[Phil Bullock]

17 minutes ago, phil-b259 said:

I’m thinking of whether I can bodge something using those Keen system retro-fit close coupling mechs.

 

From past experience, providing the adjacent couches CCM has a return to centre spring then the Keen product works OK.

 

5 minutes ago, adb968008 said:

I try to run my Hornby mk1’s away from my Bachmann mk1’s.

I find the shape a bit different, however I do run Replica Railways RB with The Bachmann ones, with a change of coupling and flush glazing the profile fits nicer.

 

Agree with both -  but just been sorting out carriage workings and theres a requirement for BSOs RBs and the Gresley RB ... and also an RKB. Already got a flush glazed Replica RB - will see how the Hornby one measures up.

 

A bit of weathering helps blend in differing blues in - a wipe with meths or thinners whitens the Hornby blue a bit...

 

 

[davidw]

57 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

So who is going to be first to transfer the underfloor gubbins and body on to a Bachmann chassis to get close coupling? Got a couple in my spares box waiting....

That's the quickest solution. Not necessarily the cheapest......

[Fredo]

On the Hornby Engine Shed website last week they had the first engineered samples of RB’s and the identities on 3 of them have been changed. 
Also does anyone know where we can find out which types of bogies were fitted to all RB’s.

 Thanks Fred 

[Flood]

27 minutes ago, Fredo said:

Also does anyone know where we can find out which types of bogies were fitted to all RB’s.

 Thanks Fred 

From BR Passenger Rolling Stock Fleet list Crewe 1970:

1644 - 1699 all Commonwealth

1700 - 1704 all B5

1705 - 1713, 1725 - 1729 all Commonwealth

1730 - 1732 all B5

1733 BR1

1734 - 1738 all B5

1739 - 1772 all Commonwealth

 

(1714 - 1724 were converted in 1967 to 4-REP EMU trailers)

 

1700 was built in 1956, 1701 to 1738 were built in 1960. Parkin states "The later batches received the new "standard" Commonwealth bogies with suitably chosen springs. But the riding of the others was not good. The original bogies were BR2 (heavy duty) type with rubber vibration insulation on the bearing springs but it was soon deemed necessary to give many of the unclassed restaurant cars refurbished Gresley heavy duty bogies. As an interim measure the single bolster modification of the BR1 bogie was tried but the advent of the B4 gave the best solution."

 

It is therefore probable that 1700 to 1738 originally all had BR2 bogies but the majority received B5 or Commonwealth bogies subsequently.

[robertcwp]

1 hour ago, Flood said:

From BR Passenger Rolling Stock Fleet list Crewe 1970:

1644 - 1699 all Commonwealth

1700 - 1704 all B5

1705 - 1713, 1725 - 1729 all Commonwealth

1730 - 1732 all B5

1733 BR1

1734 - 1738 all B5

1739 - 1772 all Commonwealth

 

(1714 - 1724 were converted in 1967 to 4-REP EMU trailers)

 

1700 was built in 1956, 1701 to 1738 were built in 1960. Parkin states "The later batches received the new "standard" Commonwealth bogies with suitably chosen springs. But the riding of the others was not good. The original bogies were BR2 (heavy duty) type with rubber vibration insulation on the bearing springs but it was soon deemed necessary to give many of the unclassed restaurant cars refurbished Gresley heavy duty bogies. As an interim measure the single bolster modification of the BR1 bogie was tried but the advent of the B4 gave the best solution."

 

It is therefore probable that 1700 to 1738 originally all had BR2 bogies but the majority received B5 or Commonwealth bogies subsequently.

Of the production batches, ie excluding 1700, all had Commonwealth bogies from new except 1701-38 which had the heavy duty BR bogies - I understand that BR2 is not the correct reference for those bogies. As noted above, by 1970 (and in at least some cases by 1966) most of that batch had been  altered as the original bogies rode so badly, especially at high speed. Some were still in maroon when they gained CW bogies.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Is this the first Hornby coach to come with Commonwealth bogies?

[Phil Bullock]

55 minutes ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Is this the first Hornby coach to come with Commonwealth bogies?

Ah no at least the blue grey FO has commonwealths ... R4778

 

The original catalogue pictures have it on B1s but it came out on CWs

Edited May 30, 2020 by Phil Bullock

[Fredo]

Thanks to all for the details. Fred

[Joseph_Pestell]

So some low-hanging fruit for Hornby to bring out a lot of their Mk1s with Commonwealth bogies.