Thompson Pacifics & BR Express Blue

[AJW98Productions]

Before I get into the meat of this topic, I must ask that I may be forgiven if this is a repeated topic, I've tried to research into this via google - to not much luck - and the forum search has not presented me any results either.

 

Now, my question. I was wondering if during the early BR Era, any of Edward Thompson's Pacific locomotives were painted into BR Experimental (Ultramarine) Blue, and if any were painted into the subsequent and short-lived BR Express Passenger Blue livery. I've seen some forum posts to indicate that A1/1 Pacific "Great Northern" was turned out in BR Express Passenger Blue, though I have not seen this tidbit cited to any reputable source, and almost seems like hearsay. As for his A2/2's and A2/3's, I have not found any information regarding whether or not they received BR Express Passenger Blue during their lifetimes. I am a fan of LNER Pacifics in general, and would love to have an example (or maybe a few ) of Thompson's Pacifics present in my collection. However, the bulk of my collection takes place during the "heyday" of BR Express Passenger Blue (roughly around 1950-1951, with some exceptions here and there), so I almost feel discouraged from being able to commit to buying any of Hornby's upcoming models of these locomotives, until I can see if they would fit in with my other express passenger locomotives of this era. If anyone knows which (if any) members of Thompson's A2/2 and A2/3 class were painted into BR Experimental or Express Blue, and when they were, I would be extremely grateful.

 

Of course, if none were repainted into blue, I'd love to know which were the last examples to retain their apple green livery from the "transition" era of BR (roughly late 1948-early 1950). Again, any help would be extremely appreciated. And the same question applies for A2/1's that Thompson rebuilt from V2's, as - to my knowledge - this specific subclass was ineligible for BR Express Passenger Blue anyway, only being class 7P engines. Unlike the Class A2/2s and A2/3s, which were designated in the 8P category (also, yes I do hold out hope that we may one day see RTR A2/1s, and an RTR A1/1 too, but for now, one can dream).

 

If you've managed to read this semi-coherent ramble, then I thank you profusely for your time, and hope you can help me out with this query.

-Alex

[Caley739]

Locomotives of The LNER Part 2A by RCTS is generally considered a fairly reputable source. According to it the only Thompson Pacific to carry BR blue livery was A1/1 60113 from January 1950 to August 1952. His A2/3 Pacifics never qualified for BR blue and all went from LNER green to BR Brunswick green. Similarly his A2/1 and A2/2 never qualified for BR blue and all seem to have gone from Black to LNER green to BR Brunswick green.

Tom

[AJW98Productions]

Thanks for your help Tom! I really appreciate it. Does the book go into any detail on why Thompson's A2 designs never qualified for BR Express Passenger Blue? The only qualification I was aware that a locomotive needed to meet, was that it reach the 8P threshold. Any explanations as to why Thompson's A2 designs did not meet this criteria, would presumably also be applicable to the Peppercorn A2's, which also were neglected when it came to the application of the BR Express Passenger Blue livery, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Again, thank you very much for your time and your help on this subject 

 

-Alex

[Caley739]

Alex

I see no reason stated but it seems to be based on the driving wheel diameter of 6ft2in and BR classified all of the A2 variants as Mixed Traffic locos rather than Passenger locos. The classifications were A1/1 - 7P later 8P, A2 - 7MT, A2/1 - 6MT, A2/2 -7MT, A2/3 - 7MT. The earlier Gresley A3 was 7P and A4 7P later 8P. The Peppercorn A1 was 7P later 8P.

From looking at locos from the other 3 companies it seems driving wheel diameter of 6ft 6in or greater was required to qualify for the "P" classification.

Tom

 

[BernardTPM]

Unfortunately that idea falls down with the SR Merchant Navy class - 8P but only 6' 2" driving wheels wheels. In air smoothed form) definitely painted in Express Blue.

Edited April 10, 2020 by BernardTPM

[MarkC]

Only 8P classed locomotives got Express Passenger Blue, I was told only the other day - and the only class to be completely turned out in Blue (other than the one-off 'Great Northern') were apparently the 'Kings'...

 

...which is ironic, really - and probably got some die-hards very upset

 

Mark

[BernardTPM]

The 8P does look to be the best candidate, but as can be seen from Caley's post above the A3 was 7P while the A1, A1/1 and A4 were all 7P but uprated to 8P. Yet some A3s were in Express Blue.

[Steamport Southport]

It was 7P. They did a lot of tidying up which locomotives were in each category and some categories were abandoned such as 5XP and categories where locomotives were in two groups such as 5P 4F. Many locomotives which were originally 6P were promoted to 7P such as Castles and Scots. The others that were originally 7P moved up to 8P.

 

8P was a later classification which appeared in 1951 about the time BR Blue had stopped being applied. Although many blue locomotives got the 8P designation.

 

I forgot to add the other regions were mostly still using their pre 1948 designations until about this time.

 

 

Jason

Edited April 10, 2020 by Steamport Southport

[slilley]

3 hours ago, MarkC said:

Only 8P classed locomotives got Express Passenger Blue, I was told only the other day - and the only class to be completely turned out in Blue (other than the one-off 'Great Northern') were apparently the 'Kings'...

 

...which is ironic, really - and probably got some die-hards very upset

 

Mark

The A3s were originally 7P but were given blue.

[MarkC]

Interesting - my quoted source was very insistent that his 'gen' was correct.

 

It seems to have been another minefield, then, for modellers - truly, photos needed...

 

Mark

[Martin Shaw]

I looked up Haresnape which is about the best reference I've seen to sorting out colours of things. The blue livery was applied from 1949 to express passenger locos of 7P power classification, 8P didn't then exist, and wheel size seems irrelevant. This included Princess Royal and Duchess. Gresley A1,A3,A4,A10 & W1, King, Merchant Navy. Obviously enough not all of these were painted blue and there will have been the odd interloper as mentioned above that shouldn't have had it.

I've just noticed something odd, Haresnape makes reference to both A1 and A10, now the A10 was a reclassification of the remaining A1s that hadn't been converted to A3 in 1945 so that Thompson's rebuild of Great Northern could be an A1. It seems it was intended that it should also be blue, in fact the RCTS shows it in blue from Jan 50 until Aug 52.

Regards

Martin

[Bomag]

9 hours ago, AJW98Productions said:

Thanks for your help Tom! I really appreciate it. Does the book go into any detail on why Thompson's A2 designs never qualified for BR Express Passenger Blue? The only qualification I was aware that a locomotive needed to meet, was that it reach the 8P threshold. Any explanations as to why Thompson's A2 designs did not meet this criteria, would presumably also be applicable to the Peppercorn A2's, which also were neglected when it came to the application of the BR Express Passenger Blue livery, if I'm not mistaken.

 

Again, thank you very much for your time and your help on this subject 

 

-Alex

 

Because Thompson was still a dirty word! On a more practical note the locos were still new and unless there was a need for publicity reasons they would only be repainted when put into the works for a sufficiently major exam; given the backlog in putting A3s and A4s through major works why spend time, money and energy in repainting them.

[BernardTPM]

Ah, but GWR Castles were 7P under BR and they were never Express Blue (unless made by Wrenn, of course!).

[jim.snowdon]

3 hours ago, slilley said:

The A3s were originally 7P but were given blue.

I haven't got the book immediately to hand, but the BR power classification system was based directly on that used by the LMS, but with a significant difference. The LMS system had included both 5 and 5X; from memory, what BR did was redesignate 5X as 6 and increase 6 & 7 to 7 & 8. 9 came along later. The blue livery applied only to the loco were class 8 under the final version of the BR classification. The confusion arises because they would have been Class 7 under the old LMS system/initial BR system.

 

Jim

 

 

[TravisM]

I’m going to ask a really silly question regarding the 1950’s blue livery.  Does anyone know why it wasn’t adopted as both green and blue would have needed equal amounts of cleaning etc?  I personally like the later scheme as on some loco’s it looked quite dynamic and given the drudge of post war Britain, they certainly would have stood out.

[BernardTPM]

It was adopted as it was a standard colour scheme from 1949 to 1951 and is shown as such in the 1949 booklet on the new British Railways liveries. The colour appearently faded too quickly to be economic though. There were some experimental schemes in 1948 using different blues and, on some, red lining. Those were not adopted as standard.

[BernardTPM]

14 hours ago, jim.snowdon said:

I haven't got the book immediately to hand, but the BR power classification system was based directly on that used by the LMS, but with a significant difference. The LMS system had included both 5 and 5X; from memory, what BR did was redesignate 5X as 6 and increase 6 & 7 to 7 & 8. 9 came along later. The blue livery applied only to the loco were class 8 under the final version of the BR classification. The confusion arises because they would have been Class 7 under the old LMS system/initial BR system.

Given the colour scheme was adopted in 1949 the revisions, if they were to have decided which classes got it, must have been revised before that date. Quite possible, I suppose; the LTSR was part of the London Midland Region in 1948 before being moved to the Eastern Region at the beginning of 1949, for example.

There is still the anomaly that A3s were never classified as 8P.

Edited April 11, 2020 by BernardTPM

[Ken.W]

On 10/04/2020 at 12:38, MarkC said:

 the only class to be completely turned out in Blue (other than the one-off 'Great Northern') were apparently the 'Kings'...

 

All of the Peppercorn A1s also received BR express blue, the last Doncaster builds, 60127-9/53-62 from new.

Also, all of the A4s and all but 2 of the A3/A10

 

On 10/04/2020 at 17:46, Martin Shaw said:

I looked up Haresnape ... The blue livery was applied from 1949 to express passenger locos of 7P power classification,.... This included ... Gresley A1,A3,A4,A10 & W1,

I've just noticed something odd, Haresnape makes reference to both A1 and A10, now the A10 was a reclassification of the remaining A1s that hadn't been converted to A3

 

At that stage A1 would have been the Peppercorn class

 

On 10/04/2020 at 07:52, AJW98Productions said:

And the same question applies for A2/1's that Thompson rebuilt from V2's,

 

Erm, not quite. The A2/1s were actually built new as such. Although they were originally ordered as V2s, the alteration was made prior to construction.

[Ken.W]

I believe, as posted earlier, though the point seemed to be lost in discussion of wheel sizes and whether 7P qualified, it was simply that the 6'2" wheeled A2s, of all varieties, were classed as Mixed Traffic locos.

 

In The RCTS 'green book' (Pt.1), table of power classes, it lists A2, A2/2 and A2/3 as 7MT, and A2/1 as 6MT.

So which 'P' classes qualified's irrelevant as they weren't in any.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Ken.W

[Ken.W]

On 10/04/2020 at 07:52, AJW98Productions said:

 I am a fan of LNER Pacifics in general, and would love to have an example (or maybe a few ) of Thompson's Pacifics present in my collection. However, the bulk of my collection takes place during the "heyday" of BR Express Passenger Blue (roughly around 1950-1951, with some exceptions here and there),

 

Of course, if none were repainted into blue, I'd love to know which were the last examples to retain their apple green livery from the "transition" era of BR (roughly late 1948-early 1950). Again, any help would be extremely appreciated.

 

A2/1 were originally unlined black with 'NE' on the tender, tho all had LNER on by May 47.

60509 (Aug. '48) and 60508 (Sept '48) were repainted in lined LNER green but with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on the tender. 60507 (10/48) and 60510 (4/48) had "BRITISH RAILWAYS" applied to the tender but remained black.

To BR green with early crest, 60508* 6/49, 60510* 8/49, 60507 10/49, and 60509 6/50.

* Note, for 60508/10 this co-insides with receiving 8-wheel tenders, the other pair had done so under LNER.

 

A2/2

60501 LNER Green, BR number and "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on tender May '48. BR Green Feb.50

60502 LNER Green, BR number still with LNER on tender July 48. BR Green Mar.51

60503 LNER Green, BR number and "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on tender Sept.48. BR Green Aug.50

60504 LNER Black. To LNER Green Mar.48, BR number with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on tender. BR Green May'50

60505 LNER Black to LNER Green with "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on tender Jun.48. BR Green Jun.50

60606 LNER Green, BR number Dec.48, LNER retained on tender. BR Green July 50

 

A2/3

All LNER Green, with BR number by Oct.49, and all received "BRITISH RAILWAYS" on the tender except for 60523 which was the first to BR Green, July 49 but with blank tender sides for a while, receiving the BR emblem later. The others received the emblem on re-painting, the last being 60524 Apr.51.

Of the 4 Hornby are releasing, to BR Green with early emblem were 60500 10/49, 60512 4/50, and 60514 11/50.

60523, as above.

 

Ref; RCTS 'green books' Pt.2A

[jim.snowdon]

13 hours ago, Ken.W said:

I believe, as posted earlier, though the point seemed to be lost in discussion of wheel sizes and whether 7P qualified, it was simply that the 6'2" wheeled A2s, of all varieties, were classed as Mixed Traffic locos.

 

In The RCTS 'green book' (Pt.1), table of power classes, it lists A2, A2/2 and A2/3 as 7MT, and A2/1 as 6MT.

So which 'P' classes qualified's irrelevant as they weren't in any.

Reading the lengthy treatise in Ransome-Wallis's "The Last Steam Locomotives of British Railways", wheel diameter did not come into whether a locomotive classed as "Mixed Traffic" or not. It was simply an operating convenience based on the extent to which locomotives of a particular type were used on passenger and freight traffic. Many locomotives had both passenger and freight classifications, eg 7P5F for the SR West Country pacifics, but since they were predominantly used on passenger services, their Satistical Classification, as it was termed, was simply 7P. Locomotivesd designated as Mixed Traffic were usually referred to by reference to their freight classification.

 

In terms of LNER origin locomotives, RW lists them as follows -

A1/1 - 8P6F

A3 - 7P6F

A4 - 8P6F

A2/1 - 7P6F

A2/2 - 8P6F

A2/3 - 8P7F

A2 - 8P7F

A1 - 8P6F

 

On that basis, the Peppercorn A1 & A2 classes, along with some of the Thompson A2s, would have qualified for the BR Express Blue. Whether any would have received it is likely to be much more down to when they were last repainted prior to the Blue livery being authorised, and since it had a very short lifetime before Green was adopted, the probability is that their successive repaints simply skipped the period during which blue was being applied.

 

Jim

 

 

[BernardTPM]

Express Blue appeared on the Peppercorn A1, A3 and A4, but not the Peppercorn A2 which does suggest being 8P is neither sufficient (A3 fails to qualify but was Blue) or necessary (A2 does, but wasn't Blue).

Just over two years isn't really such a short time given that the Peppercorn A1s were being turned out new from Works during that period, but perhaps the fact that the Peppercorn A2s were just completed before it became the standard livery (end of 1948) might indeed explain the absence of it on that class.

Makes it difficult to make a hard and fast rule though!

 

[slilley]

On 10/04/2020 at 20:00, jim.snowdon said:

I haven't got the book immediately to hand, but the BR power classification system was based directly on that used by the LMS, but with a significant difference. The LMS system had included both 5 and 5X; from memory, what BR did was redesignate 5X as 6 and increase 6 & 7 to 7 & 8. 9 came along later. The blue livery applied only to the loco were class 8 under the final version of the BR classification. The confusion arises because they would have been Class 7 under the old LMS system/initial BR system.

 

Jim

 

 

Just looked at RCTS Part 2A which I should have done originally. It says the A3s were BR power class 7P. Not uprated to 8P as I thought when the double chimneys came along. The Peppercorn A2s were 7MT. Thompson's A1/1 Great Northern  was 7P but altered to 8P in May 1953. The A2/3s were 7MT, the A2/1s 6MT, A2/2s 7MT, the A1s 7P but altered to 8P in May 1953.

[slilley]

This is a letter from Riddles to Bulleid following the Railway Executive decision on liveries taken on 17th January 1949.

[Ceptic]

13 minutes ago, slilley said:

This is a letter from Riddles to Bulleid following the Railway Executive decision on liveries taken on 17th January 1949.

 

Why doesn't the text / lines of horizontal typing, line up with the inner edge of the page ??