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Brian D

DJH NER/LNER/BR D20 Kit - Probably a lot of advice required

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As a lock down project, I have looked again at my DJH D20 kit acquired a few years ago on that well known auction site.  Having never built a loco chassis before, I was hoping to use a rtr chassis such as the Bachmann D11 or Hornby D16 but for various reasons (the D11 motor is pitched too high for the D20 boiler and the D16 is just too pretty to destroy!) I have discounted this idea and decided to grasp the nettle and build the kit starting with the chassis.

 

The kit came with wheels but no motor so I purchased the motor/gear box recommended on the DJH website.  This is now to hand and the good news is that, having test wired it to the track, it seems beautifully smooth and silent.  However, I am undecided how it should fit in the kit's chassis.  The exploded view in the kit instructions shows an XO4 type motor powering the rear driving axle but if I replicate this type of drive the gear box fills the cab thus.

 

IMG_20200410_153842.jpg.9f9a22f9e6c69c9f5db9806eba0a8515.jpg

 

Similarly, if the drive is switched to the leading trailing axle the the motor intrudes in the cab area and it is likely that the gearbox will not fit in the boiler.

 

IMG_20200410_153906.jpg.4f83055eca831063b65cbc5239d9f16f.jpg

 

However, if I turn the motor round on the leading axle the motor/gearbox fits nicely and does not intrude into the cab.

 

IMG_20200410_153921.jpg.abff292717b05626067248ed20c8d4b0.jpg

 

But I have concerns about this last arrangement.  The main chassis is very short according to the kit's exploded view being limited to the area just forward of and to the rear of the driving axles and the centre of gravity would be too far forward I would have thought.  However, some brass parts are supplied in the kit which appear to form a sub chassis over the leading bogie but the kit instructions make no reference to this - see below (apologies in advance, the motor is posed over the wrong driving axle).

 

IMG_20200410_161745.jpg.517ed220d4435971c049edb5a9c59d4e.jpg

 

I could connect these two separate chassis's together, there is enough spare brass in the kit to do this if I cut and shut.  This would solve the C of G problem but I am unsure, hence my cry for help.  I would therefore gratefully welcome all relevant comments and suggestions.

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

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Posted (edited)

If you are committed to using this motor I would mount it on the front axle with the motor facing the front. You can always add more weight over the drivers to balance it,

Edited by Paul Cram
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If you can wriggle it in and out of the boiler that arrangement will work well, you can fill the firebox with weight, the motor is in an area where you can't normally fit any. The motor is usually the lightest part of the drive mechanism so getting it up there is an advantage not a disadvantage.

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If that gearbox/motor is the one recommended by DJH, do they say where they think it should go? It is a big lump to fit in a 4-4-0, even a big one like a D20. Any number of High Level or Branchlines gearboxes would fit much better but you would need to assemble them. They are not difficult and a simple fold up mount for a worm and gear would go on the back axle with the motor pointing forwards and be almost, if not totally invisible in the cab.

 

If you are intent on using the DJH motor and gear, as they are already assembled and ready for use, I would rule out the first two options. No modern kit built loco needs to have motors and gears visible, either under the boiler or in the cab. It makes me think "How 1960s"  when I see examples shown, often with the DJH motor/gearbox, with a huge cut out and much gearbox clearly visble under the boiler and "It won't show when I paint it black" as an excuse.

 

The only choice I would consider would be to have the motor mounted on the front axle with the motor pointing forwards. It allows the firebox to be full of lead, which is heavier than motor anyway. A potential problem might be getting it in and out, so that would need to be checked carefully first.

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2 hours ago, t-b-g said:

If that gearbox/motor is the one recommended by DJH, do they say where they think it should go? It is a big lump to fit in a 4-4-0, even a big one like a D20. Any number of High Level or Branchlines gearboxes would fit much better but you would need to assemble them. They are not difficult and a simple fold up mount for a worm and gear would go on the back axle with the motor pointing forwards and be almost, if not totally invisible in the cab.

 

If you are intent on using the DJH motor and gear, as they are already assembled and ready for use, I would rule out the first two options. No modern kit built loco needs to have motors and gears visible, either under the boiler or in the cab. It makes me think "How 1960s"  when I see examples shown, often with the DJH motor/gearbox, with a huge cut out and much gearbox clearly visble under the boiler and "It won't show when I paint it black" as an excuse.

 

The only choice I would consider would be to have the motor mounted on the front axle with the motor pointing forwards. It allows the firebox to be full of lead, which is heavier than motor anyway. A potential problem might be getting it in and out, so that would need to be checked carefully first.

 

It's more likely the one they want to sell.

 

They are superb gearboxes but they really are huge! I don't think there is a realistic way to use it unless you want to fill the cab. Filling the firebox enough to make a difference would probably stop the motor and gearbox sliding in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Worsdell forever said:

 

It's more likely the one they want to sell.

 

They are superb gearboxes but they really are huge! I don't think there is a realistic way to use it unless you want to fill the cab. Filling the firebox enough to make a difference would probably stop the motor and gearbox sliding in. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

That was my thought too. I wonder how many of this gearbox and motor combination they have sold for this kit and if anybody has come back to them and suggested that it may not be ideal!

 

I presume it is too big and the motor too long to tilt it 90 degrees and have the motor sort of vertical but slanted up into the boiler? It isn't easy to tell from the photos and drawing how much gearbox would stick out below the frames and how the motor would fit.

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The DJH box is simply wrong for a D20. Find another use for it ,or send it back if DJH are saying it fits a D20, they are bulky and expensive. I also recomend  a High Level Box and a Mashima or equivalent motor . MIne runs very well with that set up, if needed I can post some photos of my D20 on here. 

 

The DJH Tender is also very poor in detail, and quality, compared to more more modern kits e.g  LRM, mine has a Dave Alexander Tender as has my DJH C7 sadly they no longer available.

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It was a long time ago and I may be wrong but I think Malcolm Crawley had to do some major work on the smokebox, possibly making a complete new one. The kit provided the short smoke box the locos had when first built but when they were superheated, they got longer ones. I am not sure when the alteration took place but it is worth checking.

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Have a look at High Level gearboxes.

 

Gordon A

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1 hour ago, Gordon A said:

Have a look at High Level gearboxes.

 

Gordon A

That is a good call but as this is a first attempt perhaps Brian D     would prefer to stick with what he has. 

In which case the motor looks like it could be slid into the boiler/smoke box although it looks like it needs to be able to pass through the boiler barrel smoke box join.

So long as enough space is left between the gearbox and cab to tilt the motor up to slide it in , the rest of the firebox is available for added weight right where needed.

Wires to the motor terminals can run on top.

Alternatively perhaps the boiler could be left as a sub assembly that slides over the motor and is held by a bolt from below in the smoke box saddle and a raised circle on the cab front? I’m not familiar with the kit in question so can’t say how easy that would be in this case.

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Thank you so much for all of your replies.  There appears to be a modicum of support for mounting the motor on the leading driver axle facing forward so, using rubber bands and blu-tac to partly assemble the loco body I have carried out some more experiments as shown below.

 

Firstly, in answer to the suggestion of mounting the motor vertically, I think it is a definite no no.

 

IMG_20200412_131729.jpg.7e9499d8fecefb3ac4acb9f2d398a574.jpg

 

The forward mounting I think is still the best option.

 

IMG_20200412_133656.jpg.a12c8ca1ddac0f4fe1672ab696060f1f.jpg

 

IMG_20200412_133709.jpg.afc761cc4bb5eb887ee5977892726694.jpg

 

IMG_20200412_133818.jpg.d961393dd5d26cbee7aaa45f116fd701.jpg

 

 

The following pic shows where the brass chassis assembly might fit.

 

IMG_20200412_133946.jpg.4816ac7a6d9a62c08305d9d326606b38.jpg

 

This (dodgy) close up shows that there is plenty of space within the boiler...

 

IMG_20200412_135035.jpg.d70ebeb83834721ed7e438295eea00ce.jpg

 

...and this pic attempts to show how far the motor extends forwards within the boiler (not quite reaching the smoke box).

 

IMG_20200412_134716.jpg.1ba8edfdc3545454eeff69090ca8ea30.jpg

 

As has been suggested, there is space behind the gear box for a lump of lead which, because the in-cab fire box detail casting is a separate casting, could be attached to said lump of lead and fitted loosely (maybe held in position by micro magnets) after the motor on its chassis has been slid in position and screwed to the bodywork.

 

I agree about the tender castings which will require a lot of fettling.  It's a shame I can't buy a Hornby Q6 tender as a spare part.

 

Another concern I have is the fact that the pick ups are only suggested to pick up from the four drivers.  I would feel happier if I can devise additional tender or bogie pick ups.

 

I would welcome any further comments or suggestions and thanks again to all who have taken the time to contribute to this thread.

 

Regards,

 

Brian.

 

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Posted (edited)

The obvious problem is how are you going to fit the motor in forwards ? There will no be much room for the motor /gearbox to slide into the Boiler, if the Boiler is fixwd to the Footplate/Cab.

 

Mine only has pick ups on the drivers, due to their size, mine has never had any problems with running/stalling on electrofrog points. You can always add pick us to the Tender using copperclad and wire , much easier than on the bogies.

 

 

Edited by micklner
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On 10/04/2020 at 22:22, micklner said:

 

 

The DJH Tender is also very poor in detail, and quality, compared to more more modern kits e.g  LRM, mine has a Dave Alexander Tender as has my DJH C7 sadly they no longer available.

It also has the wrong shaped cut outs, as I have mentioned before.

On taking this matter up with DJH their reply was that they had used the works drawings.

Unfortunately according to the story the NER had a fire and the original drawings were destroyed so they copied them but made the detail as per current practice.

A warning to work to dated photos rather than official drawings.

Bernard

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Re Tenders you can buy them from


London Road Models

 

Dave Bradwell

 

Arthur K who has a thread on here, the other two both have websites.

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26 minutes ago, micklner said:

The obvious problem is how are you going to fit the motor in forwards ? There will no be much room for the motor /gearbox to slide into the Boiler, if the Boiler is fixwd to the Footplate/Cab.

 

Mine only has pick ups on the drivers, due to their size, mine has never had any problems with running/stalling on electrofrog points. You can always add pick us to the Tender using copperclad and wire , much easier than on the bogies.

 

 

With the chassis being in two sections, I'm presuming that the forward parts are kept separate from the rear ones? In fact, are they secured to the footplate? (I'm not familiar with this particular DJH kit). If so, then looking at the photos, I <think> that there should just be enough clearance to allow the rear set of drivers to clear the underside of the cab, in order to fit/remove the rear chassis?

 

Regarding extra pickups, yes, if needed then using the tender wheels is much simpler than trying to rig something up on the bogie.

 

Mark

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Brian, which engine are you modelling? I ask because I have a fair collection of D20 pictures and I may be able to help. Yours, Mick.

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A fairly recent DJH D20 build thread:

 

 

An older thread which may also be useful:

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Brian,

 

Re the posting above, and the reference to the building of a couple of etched D20 kits (North Eastern Models), the photograph, below, shows the arrangement of the drive train. Both of these chassis' utilise a High Level gearbox and a Mashima 1420 motor. Both chassis are built to P4 gauge, with Alan Gibson wheels.

 

The photo was taken before the rear part of each of the motor shafts was cropped off, which then allows the entire drive train to be accommodated within the firebox and boiler, such that no part of the drive train is visible with the loco superstructure added and there is  no interference with the firebox backhead and cab internal details.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

P2100002.JPG

P2050001.JPG

P1220018.JPG

P1220015.JPG

Edited by mikemeg
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I originally purchased this kit because I thought it would be moderately easy to construct considering the fact that this would be my first foray into white metal kit building.  My reasons at the time were:

  1. No outside valve gear to assemble.
  2. If modelling BR end of steam, a nice and easy colour scheme (plain black with only the splasher edges burnished).
14 hours ago, micknich2003 said:

Brian, which engine are you modelling? I ask because I have a fair collection of D20 pictures and I may be able to help. Yours, Mick.

 

In short, yes please - see below.

 

It seems I have uncovered a can of worms regarding the D20s of which I was previously blissfully unaware.  I already had doubts and restrictions about selecting a particular prototype because some of the frames above the footplate in the smokebox/forward part of the boiler area ahead of the splashers shown in Yeadons differ considerably from the kit.  The frame ends forward of the smoke box are clearly convex.  Also, nearly all of the Yeadons pics are in LNER days whereas I want to model a BR end of steam prototype if possible.  If pushed I would have numbered my completed model 62389 or 62396 both of which appear to have the right sort of frames above the footplate forward of the splasher and a small (as kit) smoke box door as shown in my Yeadons.

 

Another kit construction oddity is that the instructions for the kit only refer to the main brass chassis members which only extend between the two sets of sub-footplate steps.  The other separate brass chassis members which look as though they belong over the front bogies are not referenced at all in the written instructions or the exploded view therein, nor are they drilled for spacers and no spacers are provided, only sufficient for the main chassis.  A puzzle.

 

At the moment I am awaiting low melt solder and flux ordered from Eileen's Emporium which is "dispatched" but not yet received so construction is on hold and I have time to ponder all of the above.  I need to get a working chassis built and tested first and I'll take it from there.

 

I can't thank you all enough for the time and effort you have expanded in replying to my original request for help.  This has helped enormously.

 

Best Regards,

Brian.

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28 minutes ago, Brian D said:

 

I originally purchased this kit because I thought it would be moderately easy to construct considering the fact that this would be my first foray into white metal kit building.  My reasons at the time were:

  1. No outside valve gear to assemble.
  2. If modelling BR end of steam, a nice and easy colour scheme (plain black with only the splasher edges burnished).

 

In short, yes please - see below.

 

It seems I have uncovered a can of worms regarding the D20s of which I was previously blissfully unaware.  I already had doubts and restrictions about selecting a particular prototype because some of the frames above the footplate in the smokebox/forward part of the boiler area ahead of the splashers shown in Yeadons differ considerably from the kit.  The frame ends forward of the smoke box are clearly convex.  Also, nearly all of the Yeadons pics are in LNER days whereas I want to model a BR end of steam prototype if possible.  If pushed I would have numbered my completed model 62389 or 62396 both of which appear to have the right sort of frames above the footplate forward of the splasher and a small (as kit) smoke box door as shown in my Yeadons.

 

Another kit construction oddity is that the instructions for the kit only refer to the main brass chassis members which only extend between the two sets of sub-footplate steps.  The other separate brass chassis members which look as though they belong over the front bogies are not referenced at all in the written instructions or the exploded view therein, nor are they drilled for spacers and no spacers are provided, only sufficient for the main chassis.  A puzzle.

 

At the moment I am awaiting low melt solder and flux ordered from Eileen's Emporium which is "dispatched" but not yet received so construction is on hold and I have time to ponder all of the above.  I need to get a working chassis built and tested first and I'll take it from there.

 

I can't thank you all enough for the time and effort you have expanded in replying to my original request for help.  This has helped enormously.

 

Best Regards,

Brian.

Hi Brian

 

That comment of yours re the frame parts above the bogie does seem to confirm my thinking from my earlier post. I'm surprised that they're not mentioned in the instructions, or shown on the drawing, but perhaps whoever wrote the instructions for this kit thought that they would be obvious? I would be looking to see how they could eventually be attached to the underside of the footplate casting. How is the bogie mounted, by the way? On an arm which pivots on the front spacer of the main framing, forward of the front driving wheels?

 

Between us all, I'm sure we can help you sort this model out :)

 

Mark

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Exploded views from the kit instructions attached below. 

 

IMG_20200413_144404.jpg.710b68f95804caf810ca38e7dd490893.jpg

 

IMG_20200413_144349.jpg.31cc8bb2896d0b21357a7335b7025df1.jpg

 

IMG_20200413_144447.jpg.9d63a7486842b813d85f8970fc5453dd.jpg

 

Regards, 

Brian. 

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If I recall correctly from building my example of this kit, the brass pieces which appear to belong in the vicinity of the bogie were referred to as Frame Extensions in the instructions. This identification I think was the only mention of these parts at all.

 

I toyed with the idea of fitting them before considering that they would place severe restrictions on the bogie swing and therefore the radii the loco would be able to negotiate. I also thought that the thick, plain brass construction would be an open invitation to short circuit problems. For practical reasons I therefore omitted these parts and can't say I notice they are missing when the loco is running.

 

As shown in the instruction diagram as you've just posted Brian D, these Frame Extensions are just not illustrated, but the fitting of the bogie by a bolt spring and nut passed through the bogie stretcher and attached to the footplate below the smokebox is clearly shown.

 

Hope you resolve the issues to your satisfaction and enjoy the build.

 

Regards,

 

                John

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Brit70053 said:

If I recall correctly from building my example of this kit, the brass pieces which appear to belong in the vicinity of the bogie were referred to as Frame Extensions in the instructions. This identification I think was the only mention of these parts at all.

 

I toyed with the idea of fitting them before considering that they would place severe restrictions on the bogie swing and therefore the radii the loco would be able to negotiate. I also thought that the thick, plain brass construction would be an open invitation to short circuit problems. For practical reasons I therefore omitted these parts and can't say I notice they are missing when the loco is running.

 

As shown in the instruction diagram as you've just posted Brian D, these Frame Extensions are just not illustrated, but the fitting of the bogie by a bolt spring and nut passed through the bogie stretcher and attached to the footplate below the smokebox is clearly shown.

 

Hope you resolve the issues to your satisfaction and enjoy the build.

 

Regards,

 

                John

 

 

Good advice, John.

 

Ah, the bogie is mounted on a pin passing through a slot on the bogie stretcher - with no cylinders to cause shorts against, that's an easy one then. Just be careful not to have too much pressure on the spring, as it will try and take load off the leading drivers. Just a light pressure is all that's needed.

 

If it's obvious that the 'frame extensions' are missing, you could always make some up from styrene sheet, of course, Brian. No shorting issues then :)

 

Definitely moving in the right direction now.

 

Mark

Edited by MarkC
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Posted (edited)

Brian,

 

It might be worth mentioning that Mick Nicholson's photograph above - 62396 - shows the last survivor of the class, withdrawn in 1958, and the only D20 to carry the later BR totem on its tender. Also, this loco was fitted with Raven frames, identifiable  by the straighter profile above the footplate.

 

The difference in the shape and size of the mainframe extensions, above the front of the footplate is due to a number of locomotives being fitted with new mainframes, under the auspices of Vincent Raven. In my posting, above, the first of the two photos of the completed locos shows the original mainframe profile, as built, the second of the two completed loco photos shows the later Vincent Raven mainframe profile.

 

Reference to dated photos is probably the best method of determining which frame profile was fitted to which locomotive at which date. That said, by British Railways days and LNER days, no further replacement of mainframes was undertaken.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited by mikemeg
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