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Brian D

DJH NER/LNER/BR D20 Kit - Probably a lot of advice required

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Very strange ??. I have no idea of how old my D20 is, and the instructions are missing.

        I have just looked at my D20 and it has a totally different Bogie set up. I remember when I built it thinking this wont work, but surprising it did and still works ok. The Frames are attached to the Bogie and simply slide in a slot in the casting and pivot/spring onto the large spring in one of the photos  , there is a 1mm "ish" gap between the frames and the footplate , no problems with shorting as all wheels are insulated.

I have also included photos of the chassis, it is fitted with a  Mashima 1420 motor and a High Level Roadrunner gearbox.

 

 

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2 hours ago, MarkC said:

 

 

If it's obvious that the 'frame extensions' are missing, you could always make some up from styrene sheet, of course, Brian. No shorting issues then :)

 

Definitely moving in the right direction now.

 

Mark

      Good advice from you too Mark, I vaguely recall having the idea of using the brass parts supplied as a template for plasticard  frame extensions before completing my loco, but then temporarily lost the brass parts. For temporarily read approx. 8 years. Another part of the reason mine soldiers on 'incomplete'

 

Regards All,

 

                         John

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The DJH D20 tender in very poor in detail and accuracy. First no 3940 gallon tenders (which ran with the D20s) ever had the later style  of outside frames with oval frame cut-outs. That style appear under Raven's guidance. The 3940 tenders had the near semi-circular cut-outs. There was also  a similar (though smaller) cut at the front and rear. Next, the tender running plate was only 8' wide. The loco running plate was 8' 6". I am not sure if DJH got that right. Best to check. I made that mistake  when I made the masters for the Chiver's kit. The upper tank detail is not good.

 

The motorising and balance of a 4-4-0 is always a problem but with a little extra trouble it can be easily overcome (but, dare I say it?) it requires compensation. I use  simple compensation beams on the driving axles and a fully compensated bogie. The latter has no vertical movement. Add as much weight as possible behind the leading driver but keep the centre of gravity ahead that axle. The ensures that the bogie carries some of the loco weight, as it should.

 

Another problem with the  D20 is that the bogie had 4'  0" wheels (as did the tender).  Most will elect to fit under-size wheels with frames cutaway to clear them but this does cause a big difference the the appearance of the front end.

My solution was to bend the front frames in sufficient to get a OO model around curves of roughly 30"l. Even with this approach it is necessary to remove material from the underside of a cast footplate to clear "near-scale" diameter wheels.

 

I am pleased to see that DJH are now providing the longer smokebox

 

ArthurK

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Posted (edited)

Just for clarification, regarding the two etched brass D20's shown in one of the earlier postings. I was unable to source 4 mm scale 6' 10" driving wheels, so used 6' 8" Alan Gibson wheels. Prototype locomotive driving wheels could lose up to 2 1/2" off their diameter, through wear, before they were re-tyred, so 6' 8" would represent 'reasonably well worn' driving wheels.

 

The bogie wheels are Alan Gibson 12 spoke, 3' 11", which are only 1" less in diameter than the prototype. These wheels just clear the underside of the footplate, though with a white metal footplate smaller wheels would probably be required.

 

The mainframes, on both models, have no bogie wheel cut-outs but the mainframes are tapered inwards to around .75 mm each side, to allow sideways movement of the bogie wheels. With this arrangement, the chassis' will traverse 3' 6" radius curves without any shorting of the wheels on the mainframes. Smaller radii would necessitate using bogie wheel cut-outs.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

Edited by mikemeg
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A quick update on progress.  Regrettably, no soldering has been done as yet.  Low melt solder and flux were eventually procured from Gaugemaster and flea bay, Eileen's having reimbursed me due to the current situation at that time as they could not full-fill my order.  However, my brand new soldering station's soldering iron failed, a replacement is on its way.  So various fettling of parts has been carried out and this afternoon all sorts of holes drilled in the smoke box/boiler/fire box casting for the chimney, dome, safety valves, snifting valve and handrail posts.

Hopefully I will have some pics to post soon.

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

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Posted (edited)

Here are some progress pictures.  The axle bearings have been sweated into the frames which involved opening up the holes in the frames.

 

IMG_20200519_145855.jpg.a2ad9e8a50e34f5b5610ddf945405f0d.jpg

 

IMG_20200519_145905.jpg.c5c13d5c72f0d71ae5d50e3ced33411b.jpg

 

A one eight inch diameter drill (actually it was a 3.2 mm diam) was then used to "ream" out the bearings for the Romford axles.  All great fun and resurrection of long forgotten metal work skills but it does beg the question as to why they don't make make all these holes the right size in the first place?  Anyway, the chassis was assembled with a view to soldering in the so called motor support which, because of the new forward facing motor gearbox, had to be cut to fit.

 

IMG_20200519_154514.jpg.66c71b23391cdbf015db0de6385e3dae.jpg

 

This pic was taken after the saw cut was made, the unwanted part (which prevents the use of the motor gearbox) is on the right.  The motor gearbox is an extremely tight fit between the frames but was trial positioned as below.

 

IMG_20200519_162156.jpg.ee5a6b82d65f1272581bc16853f45e13.jpg

 

The truncated "motor" support is clearly visible here.  I suppose it adds a little stiffness to the chassis so I thought it best not to omit it. The motor was removed and the Romford wheels trial fitted and I now have a chassis that rolls, see below.

 

 

The only comment I would make (and advice is sought quite frankly) is that it is extremely difficult to get the  Romford wheels completely true on their axles without any wobble.  Am I supposed to use a wheel press of some sort?  I welcome guidance on this issue.

 

The main boiler fittings (chimney, dome and safety valves) have been fitted.

 

IMG_20200520_170140.jpg.fe381cd668305b4a69a9d6da40e4e2ac.jpg

 

The smoke box door is only loosely fitted and the dome fixing "pip" which locates into the hole in the boiler has had to be severely shortened because it fouled the motor gearbox unit within the boiler.

 

I am at the moment summoning up the courage to fix the various cabside/splasher, cab front and roof elements to the main footplate casting to ensure that all is square and tidy but the fit of these parts is not great.  The instructions tell you to fix one cabside/splasher unit to the footplate and then follow with the cab front and opposite splasher/cab side but I'm minded to do it differently.  Still pondering this one.

 

Regards,

Brian.

Edited by Brian D
typos
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I have found recent Romfords/Markits wheels to be a very tight fit on the axle and you can get some "wobble" if they are not fully home on the axle end.

 

To get rid of any casting burrs on the back of the wheel, I put them on some very fine wet and dry and just rub the back slightly. I then take the sharp corners off the axle end with a small file. The square holes never have a very sharp corner but the axles do, so just rounding off the corners of the squared axle end is often enough. If that doesn't work, as a last resort, a run a small square file into the hole in the wheel. I do it gently and make sure I do he same number of "strokes" on each side, only three or maybe four at a time.

 

You need the wheel to go right against the round part of the axle with no gaps and no forcing it on.

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Reamers are used to produce a accurate sized finished hole , drill can and will wander as they cut a hole. The Reamer also takes out any minute differences in position/size  between opposing bearings.

 

Romford Axles make sure the holes are clear of debris , gently file a tiny amount the edges of the corners . This will allow the wheel to sit better on the axle.

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Posted (edited)

Here is what I did to get my DJH D20 to run. it was a bit of a fight, but turned out OK.

 

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/105990-building-br-ex-lner-from-kits/page/20/

 

As others have said, the main issue is the tender, especially the incorrect cut-outs. I used an Alexander version, sadly no longer available, but am currently looking at the DJH one as a cheap and cheerful possibility for a J39/3. It has reminded me how poor it was - for example, the solid cast coal rails are incorrect, and visually jar, even to someone like me who has affair degree of tolerance.

 

For BR days, you probably should have extended the smokebox, as these locos became superheated. I researched it at the time, but cant remember if it applies to all locos in BR days, The kit I had only had a shorter smokebox for a saturated loco.

 

Personally, I wouldn't fit the motor in the boiler barrel, though others have done so successfully. I decided it was too tricky to make the electrical connections , too much potentially to short against the boiler, and potentially tricky to get the body on and off. But that was just me, and I'm sure you can get your way to work.

 

For all the playing around with weights, I found it useful to ensure the tender connection to the loco was used to help keep the rear drivers on the track. 

 

You should finish up with a decent model at the end, and a fair bit more experience as well.

 

Best wishes.

Edited by rowanj
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Thanks for the advice micklner and t-b-g, the Romford wheel tips are really useful.  I won't be adding a smoke box extension rowanj.  My copy of Yeadons shows some D20s in BR days without it so I'll leave the boiler casting as is, although I might have made a mistake with the safety valve casting - you are right in that the BR versions seem to have plain valves without any seating.

 

I've been fettling the chassis and the motor gearbox unit and have eventually achieved a nice fit of the unit between the frames and tested it electrically as below.

 

 

I have also grasped the nettle once more and added the cab side splasher units, cab front and roof to the footplate casting as below.

 

IMG_20200522_153512.jpg.e52fbffc14d6aaa493a49c9b18807113.jpg

 

The boiler unit has also been test fitted...

 

IMG_20200522_153534.jpg.855c5f07487d0ae1c1bb370698e8d50c.jpg

 

...as has the chassis and motor gearbox.

 

IMG_20200522_153728.jpg.fb7eb26b94f75f4ba95906867747a69d.jpg

 

Progress is a touch snail like but I'm enjoying the build and its best to be sure before moving on.

 

Thanks again for your comments guys.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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The loco seems to be coming along nicely. You prompted me to re-check my research for my build. I hope you will find it helpful.

All but 2 locos were superheated by the grouping, so had the extended smokebox. Page 4 of Yeadon confirms this. I know some of the photos are unclear, but I was advised to extend the smokebox by a little under 2mm, See Yeadon P 46, 3rd photo.

 

I assume you know that your kit is for the Raven build of the D20- the later locos built in 1906/07.. You can tell this from the shape of the upper footplate extensions, At one stage, DJH supplied the Worsdell version, but later kits (I bought mine new from DJH) supply the Raven shape.

 

You are right that it would be safer to fit the Ross Pop safety valves directly to the boiler, ie without the plate, for a BR loco. The whistle goes behind them, next to the spectacle plate, rather than on the cab roof.

 

Finally, as I have been adapting the tender for use with a J39, I found it easy to open up the rear part of the coal rails, and, though the tender is still a bit of a dog, unless you decide to invest in a completely new one from someone like ArthurK, this is one of the simplest amendment to improve it visually. Talking of Arthur reminds me that ex-NER tenders had a bar for the rear tender handrail, and not the more normal handrail knob/wire arrangement.

Best wishes.

 

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Hello Brian, progress looks excellent! :)

 

I sympathise with your drive train problems: I recently completed a DJH J9/10 and had similar issues. It's another kit from quite old patterns (though I only bought it last year or so), with instructions like yours showing an older generation of motor (D10 or similar, I don't have the instructions in front of me) but they recommended and supplied their AM9 Mashima & gearbox combination, so I too puzzled over mounting and also the very tight clearance for the Amp gearbox between the frames!

It was my first loco build too so I wanted it to be reasonably fast and simple... so I stuck with the AM9 and fitted it with the motor facing forwards inside the boiler, reaching just into the smokebox in fact, driving the middle axle. The J9/10 boiler is quite small and lacked the space you show in your inside-the-boiler close-up, so I had to remove quite a bit of metal inside the boiler to accommodate motor and wires, but everything eventually fitted well and like many others I can testify to the extremely smooth, quiet and powerful running, from slowest crawl to far faster than I would ever run it!

 

Also like your D20 kit, the J9/10 tender in the kit seemed even to my relatively inexperienced eye to be rather less impressive than the loco and I did consider using another manufacturer's etched kit, perhaps a smaller one, but in the end I stuck with the DJH one, as you are perhaps going to do too? 

 

I look forward to further progress :bye:

 

Chas

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3 hours ago, rowanj said:

The loco seems to be coming along nicely. You prompted me to re-check my research for my build. I hope you will find it helpful.

All but 2 locos were superheated by the grouping, so had the extended smokebox. Page 4 of Yeadon confirms this. I know some of the photos are unclear, but I was advised to extend the smokebox by a little under 2mm, See Yeadon P 46, 3rd photo.

 

I assume you know that your kit is for the Raven build of the D20- the later locos built in 1906/07.. You can tell this from the shape of the upper footplate extensions, At one stage, DJH supplied the Worsdell version, but later kits (I bought mine new from DJH) supply the Raven shape.

 

You are right that it would be safer to fit the Ross Pop safety valves directly to the boiler, ie without the plate, for a BR loco. The whistle goes behind them, next to the spectacle plate, rather than on the cab roof.

 

Finally, as I have been adapting the tender for use with a J39, I found it easy to open up the rear part of the coal rails, and, though the tender is still a bit of a dog, unless you decide to invest in a completely new one from someone like ArthurK, this is one of the simplest amendment to improve it visually. Talking of Arthur reminds me that ex-NER tenders had a bar for the rear tender handrail, and not the more normal handrail knob/wire arrangement.

Best wishes.

 

 

Thanks for the info about super heater smoke box extensions on p4 of yealdons which I perused but I can't see any images in the book to support this idea. My potential prototype is 62396 (see page 51 of Yealdons) which shows no "overhang" of the smoke box as far as I can see or is it a case of just lengthening the smoke box and its support? 

As regards "upper footplate extentions" "Raven build" all I would say is that I am basically trying to model something to look right on my layout but also matches the info in Yealdons as far as my poor modelling skills will provide. 

Thanks again for your contribution to this thread. 

Regards 

Brian 

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The reference on page 4 is the text right at the bottom of the page. .

the picture of 62396 on page 51 confirms that it had a longer smokebox than that provided in the kit.

The centre picture on page 50 gives you the numbers of the loco s with the frames in our kit. Sorry..I gave you wrong information on that in the earlier post.

Of course, none of this matters really..and I'm sure you will end up with a nice model.

as you say..howdy the lads...I'm in Backworth.

 

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Posted (edited)

The easy way to tell whether a particular D20 has the extended, superheated smokebox is to compare the length of the row of bolts, on the front of the upper mainframes, with the length of the smokebox. If the two lengths are the same, as originally built, then the loco is not superheated; if the smokebox depth is greater than the length of this set of bolts then the smokebox is extended for the accommodation of the superheater.

 

Below is a photo of 62396, taken at Bridlington in 1957, its last year of service. This clearly shows the relationship between the depth of the smokebox and the row of bolts on the upper mainframes. The Gresley snifting valve, immediately behind the chimney, is another clue to the presence of a superheater.

 

Cheers

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

D20 Bridlington Shed yard  c1957.jpg

Edited by mikemeg
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Hi Brian

 

I think that your kit is the newer one. It has Raven frames and I think that it already has an extended smokebox ( as in Mike’s post you can see that the smokebox is longer than the row of rivets)

 

Below is the older kit showing the earlier frames and the shorter smokebox in white metal ( ends just above the bolts). I have added a ring of brass to extend it to super heated length.....well almost ( I didn’t want to try and extend the support underneath the smokebox!)

 

9890777B-E6FE-46B7-A52A-0AF3BE0FB4D6.jpeg.5eee17d6002805228f2a107f8ce646d2.jpeg

 

 

 

You see to be making good progress with your kit - it is very neat and tidy ( and it looks like a D20) 

Hope you continue to enjoy the build.

 

 

Jon

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1 hour ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Brian

 

I think that your kit is the newer one. It has Raven frames and I think that it already has an extended smokebox ( as in Mike’s post you can see that the smokebox is longer than the row of rivets)

 

Below is the older kit showing the earlier frames and the shorter smokebox in white metal ( ends just above the bolts). I have added a ring of brass to extend it to super heated length.....well almost ( I didn’t want to try and extend the support underneath the smokebox!)

 

9890777B-E6FE-46B7-A52A-0AF3BE0FB4D6.jpeg.5eee17d6002805228f2a107f8ce646d2.jpeg

 

 

 

You see to be making good progress with your kit - it is very neat and tidy ( and it looks like a D20) 

Hope you continue to enjoy the build.

 

 

Jon

 

I wasn't aware that the kit had been produced with the superheated boiler but I think you are quite right. If the snifting valve and chimney in the photo above are positioned as the kit provides, then my earlier comment about needing to extend the smokebox to make an accurate model for a later period was a total red herring!

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7 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Brian

 

I think that your kit is the newer one. It has Raven frames and I think that it already has an extended smokebox ( as in Mike’s post you can see that the smokebox is longer than the row of rivets)

 

Below is the older kit showing the earlier frames and the shorter smokebox in white metal ( ends just above the bolts). I have added a ring of brass to extend it to super heated length.....well almost ( I didn’t want to try and extend the support underneath the smokebox!)

 

9890777B-E6FE-46B7-A52A-0AF3BE0FB4D6.jpeg.5eee17d6002805228f2a107f8ce646d2.jpeg

 

 

 

You see to be making good progress with your kit - it is very neat and tidy ( and it looks like a D20) 

Hope you continue to enjoy the build.

 

 

Jon

 

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your comments and this is how my kit is looking at the moment...

 

IMG_20200530_162417.jpg.79fac697b1b10bab8ffcdfa7b5830051.jpg

 

...so I agree that I seem to have the extended  smokebox/superheated version.  But, stupidly, I've attached the safety valve seating without thinking or researching and I can't easily remove it now without damage.  I've perused all the BR era pics in Yeadons but can't find an example with the frames of the type in the kit and small smokebox door combo with this type of safety valve seating.  I'll research some more but may end up leaving it as is knowing it to be "wrong".

 

Thanks again for the pic of your build and it would be great to see your finished D20.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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32 minutes ago, Brian D said:

 

Hi Jon,

 

Thanks again for the pic of your build and it would be great to see your finished D20.

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

Hello Brian

 

If only my D20 was complete:D   I got diverted onto other projects, mainly coaches, and so it was “parked” in the condition that it was in the photo. Part of the problem was indecision about what to do with the tender. I was looking at the kit last week however. I think I also have a plan for some tender swaps now....so you never know.

 

As for the safety valve covers - the RCTS green book says “most were removed but odd examples remained in place, and 62388 carried one to withdrawl in April 1954”.  Unfortunately 62388 was not one with Raven frames. So you might turn up a photo of one of the others....

 

Jon

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On ‎12‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 22:48, micknich2003 said:

Brian, which engine are you modelling? I ask because I have a fair collection of D20 pictures and I may be able to help. Yours, Mick.

Mick,

Request from another Brian. Do you have any pictures of D20 62347 and D49/2 as #375 or 62773 (preferably 375). Also looking for any cab interior pics for any loco from both classes.  regards BG

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Posted (edited)

With Brian D's indulgence, talk of the safety valve seating has brought a long standing question to mind which perhaps the collective might help me with, that is the whistle(s) [?] on 62396 in BR Early totem days.

A white metal item resembling a curvy letter Y, with whistles of different heights was provided with my kit and it appeared this was intended to locate behind the safety valves. There were however two uncleared locating holes at the front of the cab roof which I think indicated alternative sites for individual whistles.  I think choice of style and location was intended to be determined by period , LNER or BR.

               In my naivety I decided the double whistle looked ungainly and separated the whistles for location in the cab roof for my early BR No 62396, the number plate for which was manufactured to order by the original proprietor of 247 Developments. (I wonder if this is now a 'stock' item with the current owner ?)

               I've never been able to find a photo which clearly shows the design and location of the whistle on this loco in early BR livery and wonder if anyone can clarify this for me. (Not even able to discern this on the cracking photos posted here by Mikemeg and Micknich2003 ) Additionally, does anyone know if the Y shaped whistles are available to buy from any source, should replies to this query suggest I should change my model ?

 

Thanks and apologies for the thread hijack Brian D.

 

Regards, 

                          John

                         

 

Edited by Brit70053
Correction

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31 minutes ago, Brit70053 said:

With Brian D's indulgence, talk of the safety valve seating has brought a long standing question to mind which perhaps the collective might help me with, that is the whistle(s) [?] on 62396 in BR Early totem days.

A white metal item resembling a curvy letter Y, with whistles of different heights was provided with my kit and it appeared this was intended to locate behind the safety valves. There were however two uncleared locating holes at the front of the cab roof which I think indicated alternative sites for individual whistles.  I think choice of style and location was intended to be determined by period , LNER or BR.

               In my naivety I decided the double whistle looked ungainly and separated the whistles for location in the cab roof for my early BR No 62396, the number plate for which was manufactured to order by the original proprietor of 247 Developments. (I wonder if this is now a 'stock' item with the current owner ?)

               I've never been able to find a photo which clearly shows the design and location of the whistle on this loco in early BR livery and wonder if anyone can clarify this for me. (Not even able to discern this on the cracking photos posted here by Mikemeg and Micknich2003 ) Additionally, does anyone know if the Y shaped whistles are available to buy from any source, should replies to this query suggest I should change my model ?

 

Thanks and apologies for the thread hijack Brian D.

 

Regards, 

                          John

                         

 

Arthur K on here does a lost wax casting for the whistles.

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