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DJH NER/LNER/BR D20 Kit - Probably a lot of advice required


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3 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

62347, photographer etc unknown.

D20 62347 A.jpg

D20 62347.jpg

Interesting to see the bent footplate in the first shot, which is not apparent in the second.  I presume the second pic is later as there is a slight link in the footplate which may evidence the repair?

 

If you saw that feature recreated on a model, imagine the response!

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Thanks to MickLNER, Micknich2003 and Sjp23480 for the information and links to photographs. The usual problem with photos in the vicinity of the whistle is that there's usually steam issuing from the safety valves or whistle which obscures the detail you need to see, or that the viewpoint from which a picture is taken blends the specific subject into the background or obscures the detail. There is one photo of 62396 with early BR tender totem in the second set of Flickr photos linked by Sjp23480 in which it looks clear to me that the whistles are mounted through the cab roof, so I appear to be ok with my previously uninformed choice.  I'm hopeful I shouldn't need to have gone to …  (enter your choice of optician)

 

 Thanks all, we can return to following Brian D's build.

 

Regards,

 

                  John

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5 hours ago, Brit70053 said:

Thanks to MickLNER, Micknich2003 and Sjp23480 for the information and links to photographs. The usual problem with photos in the vicinity of the whistle is that there's usually steam issuing from the safety valves or whistle which obscures the detail you need to see, or that the viewpoint from which a picture is taken blends the specific subject into the background or obscures the detail. There is one photo of 62396 with early BR tender totem in the second set of Flickr photos linked by Sjp23480 in which it looks clear to me that the whistles are mounted through the cab roof, so I appear to be ok with my previously uninformed choice.  I'm hopeful I shouldn't need to have gone to …  (enter your choice of optician)

 

 Thanks all, we can return to following Brian D's build.

 

Regards,

 

                  John

 

I have absolutely no problem with your intervention, John.  I will also benefit from the information that the guys have provided.

Thanks for your interest and comments.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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Progress is currently at a standstill - my soldering iron has packed up and another is on order.  In the meantime I have turned to another kit build - the Smart Models goods shed kit.  Anyone interested in following that build can catch it here (towards the bottom of the page) - 

 

Regards,

Brian.

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  • 1 month later...

 

Having finished various other projects on my layout, including this "modern" signal box...

 

IMG_20200704_152048comp.jpg.41e2a42f46dafb62aff497ab94a1765f.jpg

 

...and now being in possession of everything I need...

 

IMG_20200712_172051.jpg.77d429fa4e91425ad08b95e705924c12.jpg

 

...to progress on the D20, I have now made a bit more progress.

 

The front bogie was bothering me.  I assembled the bogie as per the kit instructions but thought there was very little sideways "give" using the kit spring so I tried another spring which I found in the junk box.

 

IMG_20200712_153613.jpg.1128a10c48486f413a9d4c8a15796f85.jpg

 

The kit spring is on the left in the above pic and looks like something out of a biro.  The replacement gives much more sideways bogie movement so hopefully no derailments from that quarter.

 

The new soldering iron has been used to solder the connecting wires to the motor...

 

IMG_20200712_161019.jpg.eb8f02263f75f07c58008fac6a85749e.jpg

 

...and using some carp rig tubing from my other hobby...

 

IMG_20200712_161034.jpg.bcf882ca8fc280ffb5da17b8747782e7.jpg

 

...to avoid any short circuits, the wires were bent back and fixed to the side of the motor as below,

 

IMG_20200712_165343.jpg.8171aa38878baf4f971c64958596e82e.jpg

 

The fit of the motor chassis unit into the superstructure was double checked before soldering the boiler to the footplate/cab assembly.  I had to remove the internal "pip" of the dome within the boiler to acheive a nice slide in fit.  The boiler was soldered at the front end to the footplate...

 

IMG_20200712_171518.jpg.a7fed4b2b390f134991b779f26f99bfa.jpg

 

...and to the cab front at the rear.

 

IMG_20200712_171533.jpg.5910fec3fe265668fb9df905530d6a7b.jpg

 

This is how it is looking as regards superstructure to chassis fit.

 

IMG_20200712_171919.jpg.33d63944d1b51503b548775facfcd73c.jpg

 

I need to sort out the pick ups and ensure that I have a working chassis next.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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Further progress today has been made - I now have a running chassis.  The pickups have been installed as below (I draw a veil over my soldering skills, needless to say there was much cursing before everything was finally assembled).

 

IMG_20200714_155536.jpg.b334bf97422da8236b6bafb0ea621c8d.jpg

 

IMG_20200714_155548.jpg.854e023810cb82a82c66930326128a44.jpg

 

I then tested the bare chassis using a match truck to support the motor as shown in this short video.

 

 

 

Needles to say I was almost punching the air at this point - my first kit built chassis actually moves.  Anyway, having calmed down a bit, I then slid the chassis back into the loco body and put the whole assembly back on the track for further testing, this short video shows the initial result.

 

 

 

I was well chuffed (if you would pardon the expression) at this point but needless to say some gremlins crept in after this video clip was taken.  I suspected various short circuits were taking place where the driving wheels fit within the footplate/splasher assembly and these were eradicated by judicious filing here and there to increase clearances.

 

So far so good.  Next up I'll fit the coupling rods before moving back to finish the various loco body fittings, hand rails, footsteps, etc.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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The crank pins have been fixed to the wheels and the coupling rods have been temporarily fixed thereon with tubing.  After several trials on the layout I had to open out the holes in the coupling rods by 0.2 mm to get smooth running as shown in this short video.

 

 

 

I have offered up the chassis back into the body and admittedly the crank pins need cutting back before the whole chassis/body combo runs properly but there will still be an issue with the coupling rods fouling the footplate aperture so more filing is required.  I also need to research how to safely solder the coupling rod retaining "collars" on to the crank pins to ensure the coupling rods remain free to rotate on the crank pins.

 

Getting there (slowly).

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

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Great stuff Brian, and well done with persevering with that motor and gearbox!

If it runs that well on its own, running with the weight of the whitemetal body will be superb.

Cheers, Dave.

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2 hours ago, Brian D said:

 

 

  I also need to research how to safely solder the coupling rod retaining "collars" on to the crank pins to ensure the coupling rods remain free to rotate on the crank pins.

 

Getting there (slowly).

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

 

 

Hi Brian

 

The way that works for me is to put a paper washer (I find the corner of the instruction sheet, with a pin hole made in it, works well:)) on the crankpin between the coupling rod and the washer. The pin hole should be small so that the washer is a tight fit on the crankpin. 

Add flux and then solder. The paper gives a working clearance and stops the solder getting to the coupling rod. Don’t use too much solder. I also push down gently with some tweezers to stop the washer moving while the solder is applied.

 

When soldered pull the washer off sideways - it should tear easily.

 

Jon

 

 

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11 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

 

Hi Brian

 

The way that works for me is to put a paper washer (I find the corner of the instruction sheet, with a pin hole made in it, works well:)) on the crankpin between the coupling rod and the washer. The pin hole should be small so that the washer is a tight fit on the crankpin. 

Add flux and then solder. The paper gives a working clearance and stops the solder getting to the coupling rod. Don’t use too much solder. I also push down gently with some tweezers to stop the washer moving while the solder is applied.

 

When soldered pull the washer off sideways - it should tear easily.

 

Jon

 

 

 

Hi Jon, 

That suggestion makes remarkable sense. I will certainly try that technique and let you know how I get on. 

Regards 

Brian 

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12 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

Hi Brian

The way that works for me is to put a paper washer (I find the corner of the instruction sheet, with a pin hole made in it, works well:)) on the crankpin between the coupling rod and the washer. The pin hole should be small so that the washer is a tight fit on the crankpin. 

Add flux and then solder. The paper gives a working clearance and stops the solder getting to the coupling rod. Don’t use too much solder. I also push down gently with some tweezers to stop the washer moving while the solder is applied.

When soldered pull the washer off sideways - it should tear easily.

Jon

Nice one Jon,

I've put an illustrated guide to using that method (for assembling valve-gear rivits, but its much the same) on my Workbench Topic here:  Soldering Valve gear Rivits

Hope this helps,

Cheers, Dave

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3 hours ago, DLT said:

Nice one Jon,

I've put an illustrated guide to using that method (for assembling valve-gear rivits, but its much the same) on my Workbench Topic here:  Soldering Valve gear Rivits

Hope this helps,

Cheers, Dave

 

Dave

That is a nice clear guide. Do you use lace pins to make the rivets?

 

I certainly don’t claim originality with the paper washer approach ... I just find that it works well.

 

Jon

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15 hours ago, Jon4470 said:

 

 

Hi Brian

 

The way that works for me is to put a paper washer (I find the corner of the instruction sheet, with a pin hole made in it, works well:)) on the crankpin between the coupling rod and the washer. The pin hole should be small so that the washer is a tight fit on the crankpin. 

Add flux and then solder. The paper gives a working clearance and stops the solder getting to the coupling rod. Don’t use too much solder. I also push down gently with some tweezers to stop the washer moving while the solder is applied.

 

When soldered pull the washer off sideways - it should tear easily.

 

Jon

 

 

I also add a tiny drop of oil onto the paper, before soldering.

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Re "rivets" , a even  simpler method , is to use the correct depth of Steel Rivet and spread them with a Pin hammer on the reverse side on a piece of metal , checking until the joint has no slop but can still move.

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On 21/05/2020 at 18:20, t-b-g said:

I have found recent Romfords/Markits wheels to be a very tight fit on the axle and you can get some "wobble" if they are not fully home on the axle end.

 

To get rid of any casting burrs on the back of the wheel, I put them on some very fine wet and dry and just rub the back slightly. I then take the sharp corners off the axle end with a small file. The square holes never have a very sharp corner but the axles do, so just rounding off the corners of the squared axle end is often enough. If that doesn't work, as a last resort, a run a small square file into the hole in the wheel. I do it gently and make sure I do he same number of "strokes" on each side, only three or maybe four at a time.

 

You need the wheel to go right against the round part of the axle with no gaps and no forcing it on.

 

Thanks for this advice t-g-b.  I have put it to good use.

 

Yesterday,during further testing of the "naked" chassis, I detected a knocking noise which, after a lot of investigation, turned out to be caused by a slight wobble on the left rear driving wheel which, no doubt transmitted via the wheel's crank pin and the left hand coupling rod, was the root cause of the knock.   The knocking only manifested itself while driving the chassis up the curved gradient towards the fiddle yard and intermittently on straight track.  So I have followed your valued guidance and eradicated the knocking noise once the wheel was seated properly on the axle.  Thanks again for your excellent advice.

 

As a result of this gremlin hunt, progress has been sideways rather than forwards but all good experience.  At least the chassis is now running super smooth in both directions on all parts of the layout and I can now proceed with confidence.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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2 minutes ago, Brian D said:

 

Thanks for this advice t-g-b.  I have put it to good use.

 

Yesterday,during further testing of the "naked" chassis, I detected a knocking noise which, after a lot of investigation, turned out to be caused by a slight wobble on the left rear driving wheel which, no doubt transmitted via the wheel's crank pin and the left hand coupling rod, was the root cause of the knock.   The knocking only manifested itself while driving the chassis up the curved gradient towards the fiddle yard and intermittently on straight track.  So I have followed your valued guidance and eradicated the knocking noise once the wheel was seated properly on the axle.  Thanks again for your excellent advice.

 

As a result of this gremlin hunt, progress has been sideways rather than forwards but all good experience.  At least the chassis is now running super smooth in both directions on all parts of the layout and I can now proceed with confidence.

 

Regards,

Brian.

 

Very glad to help. You seem to be making good progress now.

 

My method of soldering on the crankpin retainers is to chemically blacken the coupling rods. Either brass or nickel silver rods look a lot more like steel when they are done this way and it doesn't run off like paint can. Once blackened, you can solder the retainers on with no problems as long as you use the right sort of flux. I use a plumbers paste flux, which is fine for soldering but doesn't eat the blackening off. When I tried it with phosphoric acid flux, that took the blackening off and the whole thing ended up solid.

 

Solder will not take to a chemically blackened metal if you use the right flux. It is a useful tip for may jobs, such as soldering nuts onto footplates (blacken a bolt and screw it up, solder the nut and then remove the bolt).

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7 hours ago, t-b-g said:

 

Very glad to help. You seem to be making good progress now.

 

My method of soldering on the crankpin retainers is to chemically blacken the coupling rods. Either brass or nickel silver rods look a lot more like steel when they are done this way and it doesn't run off like paint can. Once blackened, you can solder the retainers on with no problems as long as you use the right sort of flux. I use a plumbers paste flux, which is fine for soldering but doesn't eat the blackening off. When I tried it with phosphoric acid flux, that took the blackening off and the whole thing ended up solid.

 

Solder will not take to a chemically blackened metal if you use the right flux. It is a useful tip for may jobs, such as soldering nuts onto footplates (blacken a bolt and screw it up, solder the nut and then remove the bolt).

 

 

Hello Tony

 

Interesting to hear about the different techniques.

 

Is there a particular brand of plumbers paste flux that you use? I have some in my tool box - just checked it is Wickes own brand- and wonder if it would be ok. 

I’ll probably give it a try anyway because it’s always useful to have more than one way to carry out a job.

 

I use steel bolts bolts when soldering on nuts....the phosphoric acid does make them rust, but that brushes off, and the brass nut is on in the right place.

 

Jon

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37 minutes ago, Jon4470 said:

 

 

Hello Tony

 

Interesting to hear about the different techniques.

 

Is there a particular brand of plumbers paste flux that you use? I have some in my tool box - just checked it is Wickes own brand- and wonder if it would be ok. 

I’ll probably give it a try anyway because it’s always useful to have more than one way to carry out a job.

 

I use steel bolts bolts when soldering on nuts....the phosphoric acid does make them rust, but that brushes off, and the brass nut is on in the right place.

 

Jon

 

This is the stuff I use. I got some from my local DIY store one time when I ran out and needed some flux urgently.

 

It was all they had.

 

It is very "low fume" and quite easy to wash off any residue.

 

http://www.gwneale.co.uk/telux.html

 

I use it for almost everything now apart from low melt soldering. It doesn't "boil" when your soldering iron is set at 175 degrees.

 

I really like it and never waste an opportunity to pass the details on to others. One or two have tried it and were not very keen but most people seem to get on well with it. As with all these things, I always say try it and if you like it, stick with it. There are so many different fluxes around now that there is plenty of choice.

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Using the techniques described above (paper, pin hole, plumbers' flux) I have succeeded in soldering the crank pin collars to the crank pins and thus retaining the coupling rods on both sides.  A quick test on the layout with the match truck revealed all was well.  I then spend a tedious hour or so enlarging the footplate aperture so that crank pins and coupling rods do not foul the body above when rotating.  One or two parts came loose during this process and had to be reattached.  Eventually, after several abortive tests, this was the result.

 

 

 

I then got a bit cocky and tried a haulage test (actually, a pushing test) on a rake of four Bachmann Mk 1s.  On the level, there was quite a bit of driving wheel spin before the rake got moving but move it did.  I then tried to push these coaches up the slope to the fiddle yard but the D20 was having none of it.  The loco is massively nose heavy due to the weight of the smoke box (and half the boiler by virtue of its "span") siting over the front bogie.  Even if you filled the cab with lead, I'm not sure this would help much.  I would be interested to hear what haulage capacity other people have obtained with the D20.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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Nose heavy ? , not helped by placing the motor over the Bogie wheels . If there is any space in the firebox area, add lead above the drivers. You might be able to add some under the cab roof as well. It wont be helped by having to pull the DJH whitemetal Tender either.

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On 17/07/2020 at 19:32, Jon4470 said:

 

 

Hello Tony

 

Interesting to hear about the different techniques.

 

Is there a particular brand of plumbers paste flux that you use? I have some in my tool box - just checked it is Wickes own brand- and wonder if it would be ok. 

I’ll probably give it a try anyway because it’s always useful to have more than one way to carry out a job.

 

I use steel bolts bolts when soldering on nuts....the phosphoric acid does make them rust, but that brushes off, and the brass nut is on in the right place.

 

Jon

If it rusts you're not using phosphoric acid - it's the basis of rustproofing for steel, e.g. Kurust. It does produce a grey coating on the steel but it's not rust.

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Weight adjustment on a whitemetal 4-4-0 can be awkward.  Filling the firebox cavity with lead will make a big difference, I would also persuade bits of lead into any cavity in the chassis there is; above/between/below the frames.  Look at the loco from all angles and see where there is a cavity, you will probably find many; add some representation of the bottom of the firebox and ashpan below the frames.  The triangular area inside those enormous splashers between the driving wheels, etc, etc.

 

Another method (I haven't tried it myself) is to use the weight of the tender.  By getting the front of the tender resting on the rear of the loco, it counterbalances the long heavy front overhang, by adding weight at the rear.   Not easy to explain, but looking at this page of the Scalefour Digest: http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html#section9.2  Section 12.2, and Figure 20 show the principle. 

I haven't found an online description of how to achieve this on a model, but its a well used solution; pioneered by Mike Sharman with his early Victorian single-wheel-ers

 

All the best, Dave.

 

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On 17/07/2020 at 19:32, Jon4470 said:

Hello Tony

Interesting to hear about the different techniques.

Is there a particular brand of plumbers paste flux that you use? I have some in my tool box - just checked it is Wickes own brand- and wonder if it would be ok. 

I’ll probably give it a try anyway because it’s always useful to have more than one way to carry out a job.

I use steel bolts bolts when soldering on nuts....the phosphoric acid does make them rust, but that brushes off, and the brass nut is on in the right place.

Jon

 

I use old-fashioned Fluxite paste for just about every soldering job, except whitemetal   https://fernox.com/product/fluxite-paste/  I'm still using the big tin my dad bought in the 1960s

 

Cheers, Dave.

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20 hours ago, DLT said:

Weight adjustment on a whitemetal 4-4-0 can be awkward.  Filling the firebox cavity with lead will make a big difference, I would also persuade bits of lead into any cavity in the chassis there is; above/between/below the frames.  Look at the loco from all angles and see where there is a cavity, you will probably find many; add some representation of the bottom of the firebox and ashpan below the frames.  The triangular area inside those enormous splashers between the driving wheels, etc, etc.

 

Another method (I haven't tried it myself) is to use the weight of the tender.  By getting the front of the tender resting on the rear of the loco, it counterbalances the long heavy front overhang, by adding weight at the rear.   Not easy to explain, but looking at this page of the Scalefour Digest: http://www.clag.org.uk/41-0rev.html#section9.2  Section 12.2, and Figure 20 show the principle. 

I haven't found an online description of how to achieve this on a model, but its a well used solution; pioneered by Mike Sharman with his early Victorian single-wheel-ers

 

All the best, Dave.

 

 

Thanks for this Dave, an extremely interesting article.  In my former life pre-retirement  my specialism was structural engineering so most of the article made a lot of sense.  I think utilising the (extreme) weight of the tender will be the way to go.  I know the motor is "pointing the wrong way" as it were but the whole motor/gearbox unit is extremely lightweight.  I think there would still be a problem Centre of Gravity wise with the CofG still likely to be well forward of the leading driver.  I'll also see what I can do with added weight, indeed this is an easier thing to experiment with in terms of moving the CofG backwards.  I've also been looking at my (plastic bodied) 4-4-0s (Hornby D49, Bachmann D11) and I don't think that either front bogie actually carries any weight so the CofG must be within the two driving axles.

 

Regards,

Brian.

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