Single Coach Trains (BR Midland Region)

[Spectacus]

Hello guys, I was wondering if you could help me out with a little project. I've bought the  East Midlands Branch Line Album By Anthony J. Lambert, and I want to know if there are any examples of singl coach operations on BR Midland Region branch lines? If so, what would be suitable stock for a hypothetical layout?

[Phil Bullock]

Ashchurch to Tewkesbury - once the line had been truncated - certainly did. A jinty or the upcoming MR 0-4-4t from Bachmann if you want ex LMS power - went over to Ex GW pannier tanks towards the end. Plenty of pictures if you google ....

[johnd]

Southwell to Rolleston (Nottinghamshire) 1 coach and a tank engine, from memory it worked as a push pull service, the line carried on to Mansfield for coal traffic. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by johnd

[Spectacus]

44 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Ashchurch to Tewkesbury - once the line had been truncated - certainly did. A jinty or the upcoming MR 0-4-4t from Bachmann if you want ex LMS power - went over to Ex GW pannier tanks towards the end. Plenty of pictures if you google ....

 

Oh, that'a great! A Jinty would be easy to acquire, i'm curious though; you mentioned Pannier Tanks, (presumably a Collett 57xx), so i'm assuming they would be transferred from other regions right? I would assume that given the location, i'd be more inclined to find ex-LNER stock in the area (plus, I do recall seeing photos of LNER locomotives in the book)

 

Do you have any idea on coaching stock? I was just thinking of getting an old, cheap Dapol Stanier coach!

 

9 minutes ago, johnd said:

Southwell to Rolleston (Nottinghamshire) 1 coach and a tank engine, from memory it worked as a push pull service, the line carried on to Mansfield for coal traffic. 

 

Thank you for mentioning goods traffic, I plan on depicting a branch line that featured a line running up to ironstone workings. I've already been reading up on areas such as Corby, and the Nassington Quarry. Also, I recall a alyout featured in a magazine, 'Eppingham' I believe it was called?

 

[H2O]

I've seen pictures of single coach trains in BR days on the S&D, eg May '65 at Wellow on a Bath to Binegar service. Although the S&D was a joint MR and SR effort and by this time the northern part was under WR control.

The Mendips could privide a reason for a quarry.

[bike2steam]

Single coach operation - inspection saloon??

[johnd]

1 hour ago, Spectacus said:

 

Oh, that'a great! A Jinty would be easy to acquire, i'm curious though; you mentioned Pannier Tanks, (presumably a Collett 57xx), so i'm assuming they would be transferred from other regions right? I would assume that given the location, i'd be more inclined to find ex-LNER stock in the area (plus, I do recall seeing photos of LNER locomotives in the book)

 

Do you have any idea on coaching stock? I was just thinking of getting an old, cheap Dapol Stanier coach!

 

 

Thank you for mentioning goods traffic, I plan on depicting a branch line that featured a line running up to ironstone workings. I've already been reading up on areas such as Corby, and the Nassington Quarry. Also, I recall a alyout featured in a magazine, 'Eppingham' I believe it was called?

 

What may be of interest is that the forthcoming Bachmann Johnson tank I think worked the Southwell service, am sure with a bit of modeller's license a suitable coach could be modified to a push pull coach! maybe Bachmann have one in the pipeline but are yet to announce it!

[Andy W]

1 hour ago, Spectacus said:

 

Oh, that'a great! A Jinty would be easy to acquire, i'm curious though; you mentioned Pannier Tanks, (presumably a Collett 57xx), so i'm assuming they would be transferred from other regions right? I would assume that given the location, i'd be more inclined to find ex-LNER stock in the area (plus, I do recall seeing photos of LNER locomotives in the book)

 

Lines did move between regions during the BR steam era, and everything Midland in Worcestershire/Gloucestershire and points south-west ended up under WR control, so as elderly  motive power required overhauls, it was replaced by more modern GWR designed locos.

In the North East Midlands, Midland operations ended up with either the North Eastern or Eastern Regions. Further south in the East Midlands, the LMR took over ex-LNER routes, most notably the Great Central.

[Compound2632]

The once-a-day Whitacre - Hampton-in-Arden train was a a single break composite carriage from at least the 1890s, I think, until the passenger service was withdrawn at the end of 1916. A c. 1902 photo shows Johnson 0-6-0 2641 (pre-1907 number) at Whitacre with an 40 ft brake composite of early 1880s vintage; a May 1916 photo at Coleshill shows 3678 - at that date still in more-or-less original condition apart from the Deeley smokebox - with a single 6-wheeler; a D534 brake composite, originally built as a slip carriage. 

 

This section of line, part of one of the two competing routes to the East Midlands from London, lost its raison d'etre on the formation of the Midland in 1844 and quickly declined into obscurity. The train service was cut to the legal minimum one parliamentary train per day in 1877.

 

Ref. R. Waring, The Stonebridge Railway (Brewin Books, 1994).

[Jub45565]

6 hours ago, johnd said:

What may be of interest is that the forthcoming Bachmann Johnson tank I think worked the Southwell service, am sure with a bit of modeller's license a suitable coach could be modified to a push pull coach! maybe Bachmann have one in the pipeline but are yet to announce it!

 

You don't need modellers licence - Hornby do the correct none gangwayed LMS brake vehicle to convert to push pull (and the ducket pops off).

[Steamport Southport]

A quick handy guide to push/pull trains here.

 

https://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/Push Pull YTT.html

 

 

 

Jason

[johnd]

1 hour ago, Jub45565 said:

 

You don't need modellers licence - Hornby do the correct none gangwayed LMS brake vehicle to convert to push pull (and the ducket pops off).

 

Do you know the Hornby  Rxxxx for the coach in question?

[Marshall5]

3 hours ago, Jub45565 said:

 

You don't need modellers licence - Hornby do the correct none gangwayed LMS brake vehicle to convert to push pull (and the ducket pops off).

If it is a D1735 period 2 brake third (with bolections around the windows) you don't even need to pop off the duckets to make a D1790 push pull driving trailer.  If the Hornby one is a period 3 vehicle, as you say, the duckets would have to be removed to convert it into a D1856 driving trailer.

Ray.

Edit: The Hornby R4677/R4691/R4801 models are numbered 20754 and M20736M which makes them D1907 BT's which were P3 so you would have to remove the ducket.

Edited April 11, 2020 by Marshall5

[Jub45565]

Indeed, it is a period 3 D1907 which can be converted to a D1856, but none had duckets.

 

There is only one type of none-gangwayed brake which Hornby have done - but the R number of the one I have is 4678. This is in 'BR livery' but that odd pink one which is neither crimson nor maroon.  I believe R4801 is a better take on crimson, but I haven't had one to compare.  It is/has been available in LMS livery too - and I have seen those altered to BR maroon by keeping the base colour but replacing the decals.

[Jub45565]

One further point which I think could be of wider interest - number sets.

 

John Isherwood of Cambridge Custom Transfers does replacement sets for the Hornby coaches.  For the third and comp these include push pull fitted options. For the brake it doesn't, & I can understand why as it isn't directly useable.

 

However, coach number pre tops were duplicated. BR numbering had prefix and suffix for region of use, and region of origin. Ie MxxxM for a coach of LMS origin on BR (LM).

 

Fox transfers do number sets for BR Mk1s, and this includes that for SK numbered M24413. With an extra M suffix, this is the number for a D1856. (Edit, M24410 not 13, further info in subsequent post).

 

I can dig out the Fox part number tomorrow if there is interest.

 

The conversion I am almost at the stage of numbering uses a '5522' models push pull end, which I don't believe is currently available. Comet do a brass end, and 247 & Stevenson's carriages do cast white metal options.

 

Brian Hanson at Shawplan also does a 'laserglaze' set if this is of interest.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Jub45565
correction

[Marshall5]

Deleted.

Edited April 12, 2020 by Marshall5
Incorrect info.

[caradoc]

6 minutes ago, Marshall5 said:

According to Parkin M24413 isn't a Mk1 CK number.  There was a gap in the CK series from W24393 to E24447 leaving it clear for the push pull trailers such as M24413M so no duplication.

Ray.

 

According to my copy of Parkin, M24413 was a Mark 1 coach (SK, not CK), so there was duplication, but this was a very common occurence and was the reason for the suffix letter.

 

[Marshall5]

Apologies - I should have read my copy more carefully.  I'll delete my post.

Ray.

[Jub45565]

Yes, you made me check but I did say SK. However I do have a correction to the above. It is Fox sheet 4012/2M which includes M24403-M24410 inclusive.

 

03-09 were (ref LMS journal no 12) D1790 period 2 BT(D)s, but 24410 was a D1856. Incidentally, the period 2 numbers there cover a mix of duckets fitted and absent.

 

Obviously the sheet also allows for a few variations with simpler cutting & shutting than starting completely from scratch.

[Jub45565]

1 hour ago, caradoc said:

this was a very common occurence and was the reason for the suffix letter.

 

 

Ok, sorry an assumption on my part - can you advise what the point of it was then?

 

It made sense in my head that prefer is current location and suffix where it came from - and logical that the Mk1 stock being BR didnt need a designated 'source'.

[caradoc]

3 minutes ago, Jub45565 said:

 

Ok, sorry an assumption on my part - can you advise what the point of it was then?

 

It made sense in my head that prefer is current location and suffix where it came from - and logical that the Mk1 stock being BR didnt need a designated 'source'.

 

The suffix does indeed show which of the Big Four designs a vehicle originated from, but also served to distinguish vehicles which would otherwise have duplicate numbers (even though, in later years at least, the suffix sometimes wasn't actually carried on the vehicle !)

 

[Jub45565]

18 minutes ago, caradoc said:

 

The suffix does indeed show which of the Big Four designs a vehicle originated from, but also served to distinguish vehicles which would otherwise have duplicate numbers (even though, in later years at least, the suffix sometimes wasn't actually carried on the vehicle !)

 

 

ah yes, we are on the same page - I misread 'was' as 'wasn't' in your previous!