4CEP all blue N scale

[RichardActon]

Hi

 

I am looking to have an all blue 411 4 cep as part of my fleet, I am struggling to find any decent colour reference photos. I was wondering if anyone can help point me in the right direction? 
 

Ideally with the full yellow ends and unit number 7211.

 

I know it’s not the prettiest livery but I like to be different! 
 

thanks 

Richard 

[woodenhead]

Its a model not the real thing but there is this

 

Again a model http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/reviews/mod4rev_bachcep.html

 

Edited April 11, 2020 by woodenhead

[RichardActon]

38 minutes ago, woodenhead said:

Its a model not the real thing but there is this

 

Again a model http://extra.southernelectric.org.uk/modelling/reviews/mod4rev_bachcep.html

 

That is actually a great help, it’s interesting the blue coach ends as opposed to black on all other liveries. Wonder if that was across all blue ceps. 
Looking at that I think it looks quite nice in all blue. 

[bécasse]

All-blue CEPs and BEPs do seem to have had blue intermediate carriage ends and the earlier repaints had blue painted set ends as well with just the lower portion of the end gangway door painted yellow.

 

I would doubt the unpainted metallic finish on the lower part of the window frames which I think was blue on most if not all of those units that were repainted into plain blue, and some didn't have separate window surrounds anyway. (Some but not all VEPs were delivered with their window frames unpainted, but of course they looked very different.)

[SRman]

3 hours ago, RichardActon said:

Hi

 

I am looking to have an all blue 411 4 cep as part of my fleet, I am struggling to find any decent colour reference photos. I was wondering if anyone can help point me in the right direction? 
 

Ideally with the full yellow ends and unit number 7211.

 

I know it’s not the prettiest livery but I like to be different! 
 

thanks 

Richard 

As per Woodenhead's video, I also have the blue CEP with full yellow ends in OO scale, unit 7119.

I would question your preference for unit 7211, as this was one of the very last batch of units with some differences compared to the Bachmann and Farish models. If you look at the Wikipedia photo here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_411#/media/File:1602_at_Dover_Priory.jpg, you will notice the shallower headcode box and also the angled outer edges of the cab windscreens.

[RFS]

32 minutes ago, SRman said:

As per Woodenhead's video, I also have the blue CEP with full yellow ends in OO scale, unit 7119.

I would question your preference for unit 7211, as this was one of the very last batch of units with some differences compared to the Bachmann and Farish models. If you look at the Wikipedia photo here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_411#/media/File:1602_at_Dover_Priory.jpg, you will notice the shallower headcode box and also the angled outer edges of the cab windscreens.

 

Plus on the second batch the unpowered bogies were of the Commonwealth type, as well as the units having detail differences. Another reference site is this one - 

 

https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4BEP-4CEP.html#PhaseCEP

 

The Bachmann and GF models are of the first batch. 

Edited April 11, 2020 by RFS

[RichardActon]

4 hours ago, SRman said:

As per Woodenhead's video, I also have the blue CEP with full yellow ends in OO scale, unit 7119.

I would question your preference for unit 7211, as this was one of the very last batch of units with some differences compared to the Bachmann and Farish models. If you look at the Wikipedia photo here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Rail_Class_411#/media/File:1602_at_Dover_Priory.jpg, you will notice the shallower headcode box and also the angled outer edges of the cab windscreens.

 

Thank you for the replies, most insightful!

I’ve attached the only photo I’ve found of 7211. Unfortunately it’s shortly after it’s been painted in blue grey, so not all blue. I did see the headcode size and I think that can be changed on the model- so didn’t worry me. But I didn’t notice the angled cab windscreen.
 

The only reason I chose 7211 was that I know that unit ran along the south coast to Dover - via Chatham. The others I don’t know. So if there is evidence that another one ran this way then that would definitely be considered! I did read most ended up on other routes. 
 

I thought with the cep they only gained the commonwealth bogies after the refurb? I may be wrong! 

[gelboy45]

Hi Richard

 

There is a colour picture of 7106 in all blue with small yellow panel leaving Whitstable on page 57  of 'Slam doors on the Southern' by Michael Welch. There are black and white pictures of 7182 in the same colours on page 59 of  'The Southern Electric Story' by Michael C Baker and a 'peep' of  the front of 7119 with full yellow ends on page 26 of 'Southern Electric Multiple Units' by  Colin J Marsden.

 

Hope this might help you

 

Regards 

 

Gerry

 

 

[RichardActon]

6 hours ago, gelboy45 said:

Hi Richard

 

There is a colour picture of 7106 in all blue with small yellow panel leaving Whitstable on page 57  of 'Slam doors on the Southern' by Michael Welch. There are black and white pictures of 7182 in the same colours on page 59 of  'The Southern Electric Story' by Michael C Baker and a 'peep' of  the front of 7119 with full yellow ends on page 26 of 'Southern Electric Multiple Units' by  Colin J Marsden.

 

Hope this might help you

 

Regards 

 

Gerry

 

 

Hi Gerry,

 

I have the ‘Southern Electric Multiple Units’ book, that picture was actually what sparked my interest in the all blue. 
It’s the colour photos I am after really as reference, they seem to be gold like dust! But that is very interesting about 7106 at Whitstable, I may well have to buy those other two books in due course. I do think the full yellow ends do look marginally better than the small panel versions.. 

[NIK]

12 hours ago, RichardActon said:

 

Thank you for the replies, most insightful!

I’ve attached the only photo I’ve found of 7211. Unfortunately it’s shortly after it’s been painted in blue grey, so not all blue. I did see the headcode size and I think that can be changed on the model- so didn’t worry me. But I didn’t notice the angled cab windscreen.
 

The only reason I chose 7211 was that I know that unit ran along the south coast to Dover - via Chatham. The others I don’t know. So if there is evidence that another one ran this way then that would definitely be considered! I did read most ended up on other routes. 
 

I thought with the cep they only gained the commonwealth bogies after the refurb? I may be wrong! 

Hi,

 

According to the Southern Railway E-Group some later batches of 4-CEPs were built with commonwealth bogies (to improve the ride).

 

I think the south coast is ~Dover to Land's End, did you mean Kent coast?.

 

Take care.

 

Nick

[gelboy45]

Hi Richard

 

There are two new books re Southern Electric due to be published soon from Strathwood, Volume II covering post war builds. Perhaps there might be some info/pictures in that, if so I will let you know as I have both on order!

Regards

Gerry

[RichardActon]

9 hours ago, gelboy45 said:

Hi Richard

 

There are two new books re Southern Electric due to be published soon from Strathwood, Volume II covering post war builds. Perhaps there might be some info/pictures in that, if so I will let you know as I have both on order!

Regards

Gerry

If you could let me know if you find anything that would greatly appreciated, and if they are any good and I’ll look to get one myself. I am still trawling through my books on the Hundred of Hoo branchline where my station is modelled - with a twist as though the line survived and was electrified - 80s and very early 90s era. Hence why I’m after a unit that would have most likely ran these routes from Charing Cross to strood Chatham and Dover. 
 

14 hours ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

According to the Southern Railway E-Group some later batches of 4-CEPs were built with commonwealth bogies (to improve the ride).

 

I think the south coast is ~Dover to Land's End, did you mean Kent coast?.

 

Take care.

 

Nick

i didn’t know that, I’ll have to look into that maybe an earlier unit would be easier to replicate! 
 

Sorry when I say south coast I mean kent coast or more accurately probably ‘Kent Link’ In the Nse sun sections. 
 

 

Thanks

Richard  

[zarniwhoop]

For unit numbers, I think you will have to be careful - all-blue for VEPs, REPs turned out to be a mistaken interpretation. So finding a CEP which was ever all-blue will be determined by when that unit got repainted from green.

 

See the upper part of the page at https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4BEP-4CEP.html - most went straight from green to blue-grey with full yellow ends.

 

7106 was blue with small yellow panels on 31/3/68 on a Ramsgate to Victoria train (Slam Doors On The Southern by Michael Welch, p57) and the window frames appear to be blue. 7121 was blue syp on 6/4/67 at Keymer Junction on the Brighton main line, but with silver window frames (Scenes Around The Southern, compiled by John C. Morgan).

 

ĸen

[RichardActon]

19 minutes ago, zarniwhoop said:

For unit numbers, I think you will have to be careful - all-blue for VEPs, REPs turned out to be a mistaken interpretation. So finding a CEP which was ever all-blue will be determined by when that unit got repainted from green.

 

See the upper part of the page at https://www.bloodandcustard.com/BR-4BEP-4CEP.html - most went straight from green to blue-grey with full yellow ends.

 

7106 was blue with small yellow panels on 31/3/68 on a Ramsgate to Victoria train (Slam Doors On The Southern by Michael Welch, p57) and the window frames appear to be blue. 7121 was blue syp on 6/4/67 at Keymer Junction on the Brighton main line, but with silver window frames (Scenes Around The Southern, compiled by John C. Morgan).

 

ĸen

They seem fairly elusive in terms of photographs, maybe for the reason the vast majority went from green to blue grey I suppose.
 

I was looking on blood and custard a few days ago. It appears that a lot of the units actually had the commonwealth wheel sets. But I have found one this evening, 7149 - all blue with full yellow ends, this one didn’t have commonwealth, the correct cab and head codes as to the farish model. Only thing is I don’t know if it kept the silver window surrounds - I may have to just assume that it did! 
 

I'm sure I have ‘slam doors on the southern’ somewhere but aren’t the photographs in black and white? 
 

Richard 

[RFS]

11 minutes ago, RichardActon said:

I was looking on blood and custard a few days ago. It appears that a lot of the units actually had the commonwealth wheel sets. But I have found one this evening, 7149 - all blue with full yellow ends, this one didn’t have commonwealth, the correct cab and head codes as to the Farish model. Only thing is I don’t know if it kept the silver window surrounds - I may have to just assume that it did! 

I

 

Phase 1 units were 7105-7153. Commonwealth bogies only started being fitted with the Phase 2 units beginning with 7154. The Bachmann/GF model is of a phase 1 unit. 

[NIK]

33 minutes ago, RFS said:

 

Phase 1 units were 7105-7153. Commonwealth bogies only started being fitted with the Phase 2 units beginning with 7154. The Bachmann/GF model is of a phase 1 unit. 

Hi,

 

Out of interest are there any visible differences between a phase 1 unit and a phase 2 unit (apart from the commonwealth bogies)?.

 

Take care.

 

Nick

[keefer]

Photo of Phase-1 unit 7109 in BFYE on 23/2/1969:

4-CEP_7109_PettsWood_23-2-69 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

[bécasse]

1 hour ago, RichardActon said:

If you could let me know if you find anything that would greatly appreciated, and if they are any good and I’ll look to get one myself. I am still trawling through my books on the Hundred of Hoo branchline where my station is modelled - with a twist as though the line survived and was electrified - 80s and very early 90s era. Hence why I’m after a unit that would have most likely ran these routes from Charing Cross to strood Chatham and Dover. 
 

i didn’t know that, I’ll have to look into that maybe an earlier unit would be easier to replicate! 
 

Sorry when I say south coast I mean kent coast or more accurately probably ‘Kent Link’ In the Nse sun sections. 
 

 

Thanks

Richard  

The only units that would be seen regularly on the Dartford-Gravesend-Strood route would be 2-EPBs (BR standard type), 4-EPBs (both Bulleid and BR standard types) and 2-HAPs. 4-CEPs and 4-BEPs would only be seen on occasional Sunday workings when their normal Sole Street route was blocked by engineering work.

[RichardActon]

46 minutes ago, bécasse said:

The only units that would be seen regularly on the Dartford-Gravesend-Strood route would be 2-EPBs (BR standard type), 4-EPBs (both Bulleid and BR standard types) and 2-HAPs. 4-CEPs and 4-BEPs would only be seen on occasional Sunday workings when their normal Sole Street route was blocked by engineering work.

I agree that haps and epbs more commonly ran the Gravesend/Strood route. After the Epbs networkers dominated. But I really don’t think CEPs were all that uncommon along those lines. Certainly not from my memory of growing up there and a quick internet search. 
Unfortunately my models I made many years ago of Haps and epbs don’t quite cut it now so I’m Kind of limited to the Farish 4cep! 

 

59 minutes ago, keefer said:

Photo of Phase-1 unit 7109 in BFYE on 23/2/1969:

4-CEP_7109_PettsWood_23-2-69 by Robert Carroll, on Flickr

That’s a cracking photo. Thank you for that! Certainly looks different to usual blue/grey. 
 

Richard 
 

[NIK]

14 minutes ago, RichardActon said:

I agree that haps and epbs more commonly ran the Gravesend/Strood route. After the Epbs networkers dominated. But I really don’t think CEPs were all that uncommon along those lines. Certainly not from my memory of growing up there and a quick internet search. 
Unfortunately my models I made many years ago of Haps and epbs don’t quite cut it now so I’m Kind of limited to the Farish 4cep! 

 

That’s a cracking photo. Thank you for that! Certainly looks different to usual blue/grey. 
 

Richard 
 

Hi,

 

Great photo.

 

Does any one happen to know if the big building to the left was the cinema in Petts Wood (on the Queensway, named the Embassy at one stage?).

 

I don't know Petts Wood but I am building a model cinema for a South London layout so background info is useful.

 

I noted the lack of limited clearances signs on the visible ends of the rail overbridge in the foreground - did they come in roughly at the same time as the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974?. There might be signs parallel to the running rails.

 

There is a mismatch in the alignment of the first two coaches - signs of too much lateral play in the bogie suspension?.

 

Take care.

 

Nick

[SRman]

1 hour ago, NIK said:

Hi,

 

Great photo.

 

Does any one happen to know if the big building to the left was the cinema in Petts Wood (on the Queensway, named the Embassy at one stage?).

 

I don't know Petts Wood but I am building a model cinema for a South London layout so background info is useful.

 

I noted the lack of limited clearances signs on the visible ends of the rail overbridge in the foreground - did they come in roughly at the same time as the Health and Safety at Work Act 1974?. There might be signs parallel to the running rails.

 

There is a mismatch in the alignment of the first two coaches - signs of too much lateral play in the bogie suspension?.

 

Take care.

 

Nick

 

It was the Embassy. I'm not sure when it ceased to be used as a cinema though. My personal knowledge of Petts Wood stops at 1966.

There was a strip of shops further back towards the London end, including a Woolworth's, and a toy shop (which was of great interest to me as a child!), plus a butchers on the other side of the road - my grandparents' next door neighbour was one of the butchers. 

The bus route 94 terminated in a cul de sac just beside the cinema, between it and the shops, where the footbridge gave access to the station and also the otehr side of Petts Wood, where there were more shops.

That brought back some memories for me as my grandparents also lived on Queensway, and the house would be on the left of one of the blue and grey units in the photo.

Edited April 13, 2020 by SRman

[bécasse]

9 hours ago, RichardActon said:

I agree that haps and epbs more commonly ran the Gravesend/Strood route. After the Epbs networkers dominated. But I really don’t think CEPs were all that uncommon along those lines. Certainly not from my memory of growing up there and a quick internet search. 
Unfortunately my models I made many years ago of Haps and epbs don’t quite cut it now so I’m Kind of limited to the Farish 4cep! 

 

Apart from the occasional Sunday diversion of the Victoria-North Kent Coast services (via Nunhead and the Bexleyheath line) which probably only occurred two or three times a year, the only service running via Gravesend-Strood with 1st class accommodation was the (normally) hourly Charing Cross-North Kent Coast/Maidstone West service (which split at Strood). That service was always formed with 2-HAPs, potentially reinforced at peak hours by 4-EPBs*. During the period June 1959-June 1961 there may have been occasional visits by individual 4-CEP/4-BEP units to Slade Green for non-routine maintenance work, but after June 1961 this work would have been done at Chart Leacon - anyway the units would have been green at that time.

 

*Mixed peak-hour HAP-EPB formations certainly worked in the Sevenoaks direction but I can't remember now whether it happened on services via Woolwich and Strood as well.

[RichardActon]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Apart from the occasional Sunday diversion of the Victoria-North Kent Coast services (via Nunhead and the Bexleyheath line) which probably only occurred two or three times a year, the only service running via Gravesend-Strood with 1st class accommodation was the (normally) hourly Charing Cross-North Kent Coast/Maidstone West service (which split at Strood). That service was always formed with 2-HAPs, potentially reinforced at peak hours by 4-EPBs*. During the period June 1959-June 1961 there may have been occasional visits by individual 4-CEP/4-BEP units to Slade Green for non-routine maintenance work, but after June 1961 this work would have been done at Chart Leacon - anyway the units would have been green at that time.

 

*Mixed peak-hour HAP-EPB formations certainly worked in the Sevenoaks direction but I can't remember now whether it happened on services via Woolwich and Strood as well.

Seems like you have some extensive knowledge on the subject! So the era I’m looking at is 80s very very early 90s (I know there were no Br Blue ceps left in that livery by then). For example did all the Charing Cross to Dover workings follow the Dartford Gravesend Route? Or would they have gone a different way? 
 

[bécasse]

Charing Cross/Cannon Street to Dover and beyond always went via Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford (where they often split into portions to continue via both Dover and Canterbury West), the only exception being if that route was blocked south of Sevenoaks by weekend engineering works in which case they diverted at Chislehurst via Swanley and Maidstone East to Ashford - if the route was blocked only between Chislehurst and Sevenoaks all but the non-stops went via Bat & Ball.

 

There were rush hour workings between Cannon Street and Margate but these always went via Chislehurst and Sole Street and never via Dartford.

 

If you are looking at the 80s and 90s, don't forget that the CEPs were refurbished, markedly changing their appearance in the process, and, of course, the blue/grey livery gave way in turn to "jaffa cake", NSE (more than one version) and Connex.

[RichardActon]

1 hour ago, bécasse said:

Charing Cross/Cannon Street to Dover and beyond always went via Sevenoaks, Tonbridge and Ashford (where they often split into portions to continue via both Dover and Canterbury West), the only exception being if that route was blocked south of Sevenoaks by weekend engineering works in which case they diverted at Chislehurst via Swanley and Maidstone East to Ashford - if the route was blocked only between Chislehurst and Sevenoaks all but the non-stops went via Bat & Ball.

 

There were rush hour workings between Cannon Street and Margate but these always went via Chislehurst and Sole Street and never via Dartford.

 

If you are looking at the 80s and 90s, don't forget that the CEPs were refurbished, markedly changing their appearance in the process, and, of course, the blue/grey livery gave way in turn to "jaffa cake", NSE (more than one version) and Connex.

I See. Thats good to know. A lot of the ceps online seem to have head codes of Victoria services that passed north kent so quite possibly for engineering works. But I do remember seeing them and travelling on them along that route, this was just after epb were replaced by networkers. 
 

I am limited to what models are available in n scale. So it will be an unrefurbished unit as that is what I have got, it’s a lot of work to make it into a refurbished unit and I don’t want to ruin the look and detail. I know it won’t be historically accurate to the letter but in my branch line that no longer exists it’s very much a ‘what if’ really. I still haven’t decided fully if I will go for all over blue or Jaffa cake. Again it would need to be unrefurbished and they didn’t exist! 
 

I’ve attached a photo of an n gauge 4 cep I sold on a while back (big regrets!) you’ll notice it is again unrefurbished and not historically accurate. But it looks bloody good and is a great representation! 
 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by RichardActon
Grammar