What were the last 4-4-0s to run in service on BR?

[Artless Bodger]

I'm asking out of curiosity, which 4-4-0 classes were the last to run in ordinary service on British Railways? Given that steam lasted longest in the north west, I'd assume they would be either LMS 2Ps or Compounds. My 1964 Observer's Book of Railway Locomotives of Britain has entries for the preserved trio; Gordon Highlander, the Glen and the T9, it also has entries for the Schools Class noting two were withdrawn but in store, and 2Ps noting several were to be seen in Scotland awaiting cutting up.

 

I have a vague memory of an old black 4-4-0 at Ashford, either outside the works or near the Margate line, this would be early 60s and steam had gone in Kent except for the two USA shunters at Ashford works, I'm assuming this was the D which ended up in Clapham museum.

 

I'm assuming the T9s in the west country had gone when the WR took over SR routes?

 

Many thanks.

[30368]

My recollection was that the last 4-4-0's in service, i.e. pulling trains, was indeed the Schools on the Southern although I would be the first to admit I was at that time less aware of the ex LMS 2P 4-4-0's - did they have their last service runs in Scotland? Interesting question.

 

Kind regards,

 

Richard B

Edited April 12, 2020 by 30368

[Steamport Southport]

The Schools were all gone by the end of 1962. Seems to be a virtual overnight withdrawal. A handful of T9s were still lingering on until mid 1961.

 

http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=344019&type=S&page=fleet

 

2Ps hung on until the end of 1962 as well, 40670 from Ardrossan went in December, so they were about equal. 

 

On the LNER I think it was the D11s that lasted the longest just getting into 1962 with 62685 Malcolm Graeme. Last D49 was Morayshire in July 1961.

 

Last GWR was 9017 Earl Of Berkeley October 1960.

 

 

Jason

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 minute ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Schools were all gone by the end of 1962. Seems to be a virtual overnight withdrawal. A handful of T9s were still lingering on until mid 1961.

I think the Southern region had a policy of withdrawing newer steam classes en bloc to meet set targets. The K class 2-6-0s certainly were all withdrawn this way.

 

You could have seen 4-4-0s in traffic until 1965 in Ireland (painted that nice shade of blue the Great Northern used to its express locos) . 

[Artless Bodger]

8 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Schools were all gone by the end of 1962. Seems to be a virtual overnight withdrawal. A handful of T9s were still lingering on until mid 1961.

 

http://brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=class&id=344019&type=S&page=fleet

 

2Ps hung on until the end of 1962 as well, 40670 from Ardrossan went in December, so they were about equal. 

 

On the LNER I think it was the D11s that lasted the longest just getting into 1962 with 62685 Malcolm Graeme. Last D49 was Morayshire in July 1961.

 

Last GWR was 9017 Earl Of Berkeley October 1960.

 

 

Jason

Thank you for this, I'd not come across the database, more to occupy myself with during the lurgi. I have fond memories of the Airfix Schools - 919 Harrow.

[RFS]

13 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

The Schools were all gone by the end of 1962. Seems to be a virtual overnight withdrawal. A handful of T9s were still lingering on until mid 1961.

 

The Transport Act of 1962 meant that all railway operations were transferred to the new British Railways Board from 1st January 1963 which replaced the British Transport Commission. For accountancy reasons there was a cull at the end of 1962 of what were regarded as surplus locos. Most of the locos thus withdrawn were probably in store anyway. 

 

Details here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Act_1962

[pH]

40 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

2Ps hung on until the end of 1962 as well, 40670 from Ardrossan went in December, so they were about equal.

 

I don't know where that information originally came from. I have seen it before, but it's wrong. 40670 was a Dumfries engine for some time before being withdrawn in December 1962, and was stored at Dumfries for some time after that. It was out of use for a while before being officially withdrawn.

 

Were any of the Schools working right up till December 1962, or were they stored for a while before being withdrawn?

 

4-4-0s which definitely were working till late 1962 were the Caledonian Pickersgills being used to transfer Glasgow southside Blue Trains to and from the northside lines for maintenance. They were the last air-braked steam locos on the Scottish Region, and worked those duties till a couple of EE Type 1s were fitted with air brakes for the work. 54465 and 54502 were withdrawn in October 1962, and 54463 in December.

 

There was a topic on exactly this subject on here before. I've looked for it but can't find it - it must have been on an earlier version of the site.

[Steamport Southport]

I believe the Schools were working right until the end waiting for there to be enough Class 33s to replace them. They even had to borrow some Class 24s.

 

The delays with the Kent electrification was also a factor.

 

 

 

Jason

[Oldddudders]

Full accelerated electric services were introduced on the Phase 2 Kent Coast Electrification on June 18, 1962. Some trains had been steam stock electric-hauled for up to a year beforehand. The South Eastern would have had no further use for any 4-4-0s after that date. 

[RFS]

34 minutes ago, Steamport Southport said:

I believe the Schools were working right until the end waiting for there to be enough Class 33s to replace them. They even had to borrow some Class 24s.

 

The delays with the Kent electrification was also a factor.

 

 

 

Jason

 

The Kent Coast Electrification was not delayed, with phase 1 being implemented on schedule in June 1959. Phase 2 was due to go live in June 1962 but the work was completed ahead of schedule in mid-1961. As a result most steam-hauled services were replaced by electric traction in 1961 albeit running on steam schedules until the full new timetable was implemented in 1962 as planned.

 

There was a delay in getting all the class 33s delivered, and as a result about 17 or so class 24s were borrowed from the LMR in 1959 but these had all been returned by mid-1962 as by then all 98 class 33s were in service.

 

The final implementation released large numbers of Bulleid Pacifics and still fairly new BR Standard 4s and 5s. With further BR Standards becoming surplus on other regions there was no need to keep the much older Arthurs, Nelsons and Schools and all had gone by the end of 1962. By 1961 any remaining T9s were at least 60 years old, and they were replaced in the West Country by N and U class locos made surplus in Kent by the 33s. 

[Roadrails]

Warship class 43 with one seized engine 1971? 

[TravisM]

I thought some of the 2P’s that worked over the S&D lasted until 1964 as I thought I saw a picture of several parked up at Templecombe but I could be confused with another class of loco.

[Ken.W]

3 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

On the LNER I think it was the D11s that lasted the longest just getting into 1962 with 62685 Malcolm Graeme. Last D49 was Morayshire in July 1961.

 

A quick check of the RCTS book and yes, thats correct, last LNER 4-40 D11 62685, 1/62

Just beating last ex-NB D34 62496, 11/61.

Last D49 62712, 7/61

[Orion]

What about Gordon Highlander - didn't it run a few regular services in between specials before its final withdrawal?

[pH]

4 hours ago, jools1959 said:

I thought some of the 2P’s that worked over the S&D lasted until 1964 as I thought I saw a picture of several parked up at Templecombe but I could be confused with another class of loco.

 

I think the last 2Ps went from Bath and Templecombe in September 1962.

[Steamport Southport]

4 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Full accelerated electric services were introduced on the Phase 2 Kent Coast Electrification on June 18, 1962. Some trains had been steam stock electric-hauled for up to a year beforehand. The South Eastern would have had no further use for any 4-4-0s after that date. 

 

Still working on BR in late 1962 though. Which is what the question was.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/v_class3.html

 

 

 

Jason

[rab]

12 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Full accelerated electric services were introduced on the Phase 2 Kent Coast Electrification on June 18, 1962. Some trains had been steam stock electric-hauled for up to a year beforehand. The South Eastern would have had no further use for any 4-4-0s after that date. 

I've heard of single phase and 3 phase_supply  but never 2 phase

[Oldddudders]

27 minutes ago, rab said:

I've heard of single phase and 3 phase_supply  but never 2 phase

We all live and learn on RMweb! 

[Colin]

I think the last Schools to run was 30934 St Lawrence, which although withdrawn was steamed in (IIRC) April 1963 to haul  another withdrawn loco (class 700 0-6-0 from memory) to Eastleigh, presumably for scrapping.

The 2Ps on the S&D were replaced by Standard 4MT 4-6-0s in summer 1962, by which time there were very few left.

The last Compound was (IIRC again) 41168 which was withdrawn in mid-1961, by which time it was in unlined black/late crest livery.

A small number of redundant SE Division steam locos ended up at Nine Elms for a short while around 1960/61, these included D1/E1, L and L1 4-4-0s and H 0-4-4Ts but I don’t think they saw much use and soon disappeared. The last L1 was, I believe, 31786 which went in early ‘62.

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Colin
Mistake on L1 number!

[pete_mcfarlane]

1 hour ago, Colin said:

The last Compound was (IIRC again) 41168 which was withdrawn in mid-1961, by which time it was in unlined black/late crest livery.

Presumably this was also the last compound loco of any class on BR?

[Wickham Green too]

1 hour ago, rab said:

I've heard of single phase and 3 phase_supply  but never 2 phase

Single- or three-phase is AC ........ but it's DC on the Southern don't forget !

[Nearholmer]

2-Phase is electrically possible, and I believe there was a 2-phase street-main distribution system in the Crystal Palace and Croydon* area In ancient days, but it has multiple disadvantages, and no advantages, when compared with 3-phase.

 

Wikipedia says that there actually a few 2-phase systems still in use, which amazes me https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

 

*I think that the very first iteration of Croydon A generating station in 1896 may have supplied 2-phase and dc, but TBH it was >40 years ago when I was told all about this, so I can’t remember for certain. The Wikipedia entry for the station talks about 200V and 400V single-phase, which sounds more like split-phase than 2-phase to me.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Nearholmer

[Artless Bodger]

Wow, thanks to everyone, I didn't think this question would stimulate so many responses, much appreciated.

 

So it seems 1962 was the last year of 4-4-0s in traffic and after that only occasional uses.

 

1 hour ago, Colin said:

I think the last Schools to run was 30934 St Lawrence, which although withdrawn was steamed in (IIRC) April 1963 to haul  another withdrawn loco (class 700 0-6-0 from memory) to Eastleigh, presumably for scrapping.

The 2Ps on the S&D were replaced by Standard 4MT 4-6-0s in summer 1962, by which time there were very few left.

The last Compound was (IIRC again) 41168 which was withdrawn in mid-1961, by which time it was in unlined black/late crest livery.

A small number of redundant SE Division steam locos ended up at Nine Elms for a short while around 1960/61, these included D1/E1, L and L1 4-4-0s and H 0-4-4Ts but I don’t think they saw much use and soon disappeared. The last L1 was, I believe, 31768 which went in early ‘62.

 

Interesting info wrt the H class, I can remember seeing a steam engine at Maidstone West as a young child (about 3-4 yo), in the Tonbridge bay, the thing I remember most was something L shaped in the cab - the hand brake handle I suppose. Probably an H on the Tonbridge (or Paddock Wood) push pull. We'd have been going to see relatives in Snodland. 

[Colin]

59 minutes ago, pete_mcfarlane said:

Presumably this was also the last compound loco of any class on BR?

I think you’re right Pete, I certainly can’t recall any other compounds surviving that late.

[Ken.W]

10 hours ago, Steamport Southport said:

 

Still working on BR in late 1962 though. Which is what the question was.

 

http://www.semgonline.com/steam/v_class3.html

 

 

 

Jason

 

Anyone know what 'Cheltenham' was doing at Darlington?

Some sort of special I presume