What were the last 4-4-0s to run in service on BR?

[pH]

5 hours ago, Ken.W said:

 

Anyone know what 'Cheltenham' was doing at Darlington?

Some sort of special I presume

 

From the 'Six Bells Junction' website:

 

Railway Correspondence & Travel Society (East Midlands Branch) The East Midlander No. 5, 13th May 1962. Nottingham Victoria to Darlington and return. Engines used - 30925 'Cheltenham', 40646 & 90348

[rab]

9 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

2-Phase is electrically possible, and I believe there was a 2-phase street-main distribution system in the Crystal Palace and Croydon* area In ancient days, but it has multiple disadvantages, and no advantages, when compared with 3-phase.

 

Wikipedia says that there actually a few 2-phase systems still in use, which amazes me https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two-phase_electric_power

 

*I think that the very first iteration of Croydon A generating station in 1896 may have supplied 2-phase and dc, but TBH it was >40 years ago when I was told all about this, so I can’t remember for certain. The Wikipedia entry for the station talks about 200V and 400V single-phase, which sounds more like split-phase than 2-phase to me.

 

 

 

 

Well I think my comment could be classed as a true word spoken in jest. As Oldddudders says, we live and learn

[Right Away]

On 11/04/2020 at 19:05, RFS said:

 

The Transport Act of 1962 meant that all railway operations were transferred to the new British Railways Board from 1st January 1963 which replaced the British Transport Commission. For accountancy reasons there was a cull at the end of 1962 of what were regarded as surplus locos. Most of the locos thus withdrawn were probably in store anyway. 

 

Details here - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Act_1962

Yes, the Cull of December '62 (sounds like a song title!)

What may, within today's even more cost concious society seem astonishing, was the fact that amongst the many ageing veterans that had been operating past their "sell-by date" in 1962, but also condemned were examples which were not that many months out of shops.

 

The economics prevailing hastened the withdrawal of as many engines as practicable, seemingly irrespective of their condition. Accordingly, perfectly operational locomotives which had received relatively recent overhauls at considerable expense to the taxpayer were withdrawn; a practice that was set to continue in many quarters without question.

 

 

 

 

 

[Nearholmer]

A Kent Konundrum for the assembled wise people: I can distinctly remember travelling from Tunbridge Wells into Cannon Street behind steam, which would logically have been a Schools, but given the withdrawal date cited, I would have been very young, so it seems implausible that I’d remember it so clearly. 
 

Were there any late-surviving steam workings, and if so which locos were involved?

[number6]

In Hugh Longworth’s amazing book British Railway Steam Locomotives 1948-1968 there is a fascinating appendix which is well worth having a look at when you are considering one of those ‘green diesels and BR pre-group steam engines’ layouts to see if it’s likely to have happened. 

 

It shows what locos lasted to which year both by wheel arrangement and by region and by class. Really you’ve got to be back in the 50s for the true interesting and varied stuff. Who knew there were only 12 0.6.0 tank engines left at the end of 1966? Whereas in ‘56 there were 2,662.

 

It says that by year end 1962 there was 1 4.4.0. A T9.

[RFS]

44 minutes ago, number6 said:

In Hugh Longworth’s amazing book British Railway Steam Locomotives 1948-1968 there is a fascinating appendix which is well worth having a look at when you are considering one of those ‘green diesels and BR pre-group steam engines’ layouts to see if it’s likely to have happened. 

 

It shows what locos lasted to which year both by wheel arrangement and by region and by class. Really you’ve got to be back in the 50s for the true interesting and varied stuff. Who knew there were only 12 0.6.0 tank engines left at the end of 1966? Whereas in ‘56 there were 2,662.

 

It says that by year end 1962 there was 1 4.4.0. A T9.

 

According to BR Database website. that T9 was the preserved 30120, which was not marked as withdrawn until July 1963. I assume it lived on a bit longer as it was being used on rail tours?

 

See http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=116766&type=S&loco=30120

 

[RFS]

Duplicate post deleted.

Edited April 12, 2020 by RFS

[The Border Reiver]

1 hour ago, RFS said:

 

According to BR Database website. that T9 was the preserved 30120, which was not marked as withdrawn until July 1963. I assume it lived on a bit longer as it was being used on rail tours?

 

See http://www.brdatabase.info/locoqry.php?action=locodata&id=116766&type=S&loco=30120

 

I have a photo of T9 120 on Brighton shed in steam dated August 1963

[Oldddudders]

10 hours ago, Nearholmer said:

A Kent Konundrum for the assembled wise people: I can distinctly remember travelling from Tunbridge Wells into Cannon Street behind steam, which would logically have been a Schools, but given the withdrawal date cited, I would have been very young, so it seems implausible that I’d remember it so clearly. 
 

Were there any late-surviving steam workings, and if so which locos were involved?

Worse still, Kevin, the Hastings diesels had taken over the route from the late '50s. Perhaps you changed at Tonbridge and picked up a Kent Coast steam working, some of which lasted until 1962?

[Ian Hargrave]

On 11/04/2020 at 21:33, jools1959 said:

I thought some of the 2P’s that worked over the S&D lasted until 1964 as I thought I saw a picture of several parked up at Templecombe but I could be confused with another class of loco.

Midland 2P’s worked out of both Bristol Barrow Road on the ex-Midland Bristol -Birmingham line and Bath Green Park on the S&D into the early 1960’s IIRC. I can remember them on the Birmingham stopping trains out of Temple Meads....the epitome of the late Flanders& Swan slow train.By the time you reached ...eventually......New Street,you’d almost lost the will to live..Ivo Peters photography of their S&D work is a useful reference btw.

[Right Away]

Albeit, just an annual steam working from the South Coast, I remember travelling with my father from Brighton to North Camp on the Farnborough Air Display specials in the years '59-'62.

 

On one occasion, "Winchester" worked to Redhill, where ""Rugby" hooked on the rear and hauled us over the North Downs for the remainder of the journey. (Highlight for a young Me was seeing the Guildford pilot, a B4 0-4-0T in the shed yard.)

 

Another year, we just about managed to catch the train (as the bus was late) and grabbed seats in a rear coach with minutes to spare, meaning the hitherto mandatory visit to the front of the train to view the loco wasn't possible!

Airing this disappointment as we pulled out, Dad, who was by that time a Motorman, remarked that the engine was a "West Country". I remember at that age, being somewhat amazed that an engine could be identified by its sound, but hey, Dad had worked on them since their introduction. The coach surged momentarily and he remarked "Sounds like this bloke wants to get there before he's started!", doubtlessly referring to the engine's antics as it lost its feet over the pointwork.

Arriving at Redhill, the uncoupled engine ran back past us to the Loco and it was indeed a Pacific, but one of Brighton's "Battle of Britains" at that time, "Fighter Pilot" or "Biggin Hill", the exact one evades me. 

I do not recall further details of the onward journey from Redhill on that occasion.

 

As for many lads, the journey by rail to the air display was an "opener" to the main event but the last year we went, the occasion was "marred" by the fact that the train comprised a Hastings DEMU!

 

As an aside I've attached one of my schoolboy attempts at photography of "Dulwich" taking water in the up loop at Haywards Heath.

Edited April 13, 2020 by Right Away
Must use PC not tablet fir typing !!!!!

[Nearholmer]

2 hours ago, Oldddudders said:

Worse still, Kevin, the Hastings diesels had taken over the route from the late '50s. Perhaps you changed at Tonbridge and picked up a Kent Coast steam working, some of which lasted until 1962?

True, although there were occasional steam workings from Brighton as far as Tonbridge.

 

You could be right about changing trains.

 

Mists of time and all that ....... shall never be certain.

[RFS]

1 hour ago, Nearholmer said:

True, although there were occasional steam workings from Brighton as far as Tonbridge.

 

You could be right about changing trains.

 

Mists of time and all that ....... shall never be certain.

 

Any Brighton-Tonbridge steam workings at this time were most likely BR Standard 4 tanks. Tunbridge Wells West had an allocation of these until September 1963 and Brighton into 1964. 

[dvdlcs]

On 13/04/2020 at 03:56, number6 said:

In Hugh Longworth’s amazing book British Railway Steam Locomotives 1948-1968 there is a fascinating appendix which is well worth having a look at when you are considering one of those ‘green diesels and BR pre-group steam engines’ layouts to see if it’s likely to have happened. 

 

It shows what locos lasted to which year both by wheel arrangement and by region and by class. Really you’ve got to be back in the 50s for the true interesting and varied stuff. Who knew there were only 12 0.6.0 tank engines left at the end of 1966? Whereas in ‘56 there were 2,662.

 

It says that by year end 1962 there was 1 4.4.0. A T9.

 

Hello.

 

Fascinating table, which raises a few questions (sorry, going OT from the original query):

 

What was the solitary 4-6-4? Can't think of what that might be.

 

Presumably the initial 2-10-0 locos were the ex-WDs, then joined (briefly) by the 9Fs?

 

The 0-10-0 would have been the Lickey banker, I guess?

 

When I first saw 0-4-2 extinct by 1948, I assumed that the BR liveried 14xx's were largely fiction. Then I realised that this table was for tender locomotives. Which begs the question, what were these four 0-4-2 tender locos? Something ex-Welsh, ex-GWR?

 

The 2-4-0 wheel arrangement also seems rather archaic, presumably these were also long-in-the-tooth survivors from an earlier era?

 

Thanks for any response - as you might tell steam isn't really my area of knowledge, although tables of figures like these I find fascinating ...

 

 

[t-b-g]

3 minutes ago, dvdlcs said:

 

Hello.

 

Fascinating table, which raises a few questions (sorry, going OT from the original query):

 

What was the solitary 4-6-4? Can't think of what that might be.

 

Presumably the initial 2-10-0 locos were the ex-WDs, then joined (briefly) by the 9Fs?

 

The 0-10-0 would have been the Lickey banker, I guess?

 

When I first saw 0-4-2 extinct by 1948, I assumed that the BR liveried 14xx's were largely fiction. Then I realised that this table was for tender locomotives. Which begs the question, what were these four 0-4-2 tender locos? Something ex-Welsh, ex-GWR?

 

The 2-4-0 wheel arrangement also seems rather archaic, presumably these were also long-in-the-tooth survivors from an earlier era?

 

Thanks for any response - as you might tell steam isn't really my area of knowledge, although tables of figures like these I find fascinating ...

 

 

 

The 4-6-4 would be the LNER W1 "Hush hush" although I have also seen it described as a 4-6-2-2 as the rear two wheels were not in a bogie. You are right about the 2-10-0 and the 0-10-0.

 

There were a number of ex GER 2-4-0 tender locos that lasted well, one is preserved at York Museum now. LNER Class E4.

 

I am not sure about the last 0-4-2 tender loco but an LSWR Jubilee A12 would be my best guess. I know they lasted well through Southern Railway days.

[eldomtom2]

Wikipedia says that the four 0-4-2s withdrawn in 1948 were indeed the A12s.

[number6]

tbg knows their stuff! 

 

Seeing the numbers climb through the 1950s for 4.6.0s, 2.6.0s and 2.10.0s is another way of seeing Riddles standard classes taking the work of earlier design fashions like 4.4.2s, 4.4.0s and (even) 0.6.0s. Steam Days magazine had a very good article about when Atlantics were fashionable in pre group days and how they held off 4.6.0s on the Caledonian and Great Central for a while before falling out of favour. Even the Great Western were tempted to try the 4.4.2 under what was effectively a Star but found no real advantage to their 4.6.0 platform.

 

Should we go further off topic and people try and identify the locos in the tank engine table? 

 

 

[pH]

1 hour ago, number6 said:

Steam Days magazine had a very good article about when Atlantics were fashionable in pre group days and how they held off 4.6.0s on the Caledonian and Great Central for a while before falling out of favour. 

 

I may be reading that wrongly, but the Caledonian never had an Atlantic. They went from 4-4-0s to 4-6-0s.

[Invicta]

On 12/04/2020 at 12:33, Ken.W said:

 

Anyone know what 'Cheltenham' was doing at Darlington?

Some sort of special I presume

 

RCTS 'East Midlander' railtour, 13th May 1962, Nottingham Victoria-Darlington. I've got a very vague memory of reading somewhere that Nottingham shed put it to use for a short time after the tour on local trains before returning it to the Southern region? Can anyone confirm the story, or am I completely imagining this?

 

https://www.sixbellsjunction.co.uk/60s/620513rc.html

https://www.rail-online.co.uk/p518773543/h90D410A#h7d83f4f

Edited April 14, 2020 by Invicta

[number6]

2 hours ago, pH said:

 

I may be reading that wrongly, but the Caledonian never had an Atlantic. They went from 4-4-0s to 4-6-0s.

 

Yes sorry - unclear - I meant that the Caledonian built 5 4.6.0s (which had originally been authorised as 4.4.2s). And these engines, to stay a bit on topic, were really just an extended 4.4.0. 

 

The issue is Feb 2009 if interested. 

[DCB]

2 hours ago, number6 said:

 

Yes sorry - unclear - I meant that the Caledonian built 5 4.6.0s (which had originally been authorised as 4.4.2s). And these engines, to stay a bit on topic, were really just an extended 4.4.0. 

 

The issue is Feb 2009 if interested. 

 

 

The 5 Caley 4-6-0s included probably the most famous Scottish loco of all 903  "Cardean"   a legend on the 10.30 corridor from Glasgae to England and return for around 10 years. I believe the 4-4-2 was to be outside cylinder and might not have rode as well as the inside cyl 903 class which were recorded at 80 mph. About 15 mph more than their outside cyl replacements the 60 class managed.

[MJI]

LMS 2P and 4P ran into 60s around here.

 

Seen a GWR City in 1985 on a rake of IC Mark 1s.

[The Stationmaster]

On 14/04/2020 at 19:01, number6 said:

tbg knows their stuff! 

 

Seeing the numbers climb through the 1950s for 4.6.0s, 2.6.0s and 2.10.0s is another way of seeing Riddles standard classes taking the work of earlier design fashions like 4.4.2s, 4.4.0s and (even) 0.6.0s. Steam Days magazine had a very good article about when Atlantics were fashionable in pre group days and how they held off 4.6.0s on the Caledonian and Great Central for a while before falling out of favour. Even the Great Western were tempted to try the 4.4.2 under what was effectively a Star but found no real advantage to their 4.6.0 platform.

 

Should we go further off topic and people try and identify the locos in the tank engine table? 

 

 

Not strictly correct in respect of the GWR engines.  The first GWR built 4-4-2s were a batch of the production series 'Saints' built in 1905 as 4-4-2s to enable direct comparison with the French engines previously purchased by the GWR, but at the same time the company built a batch of Saints as 4-6-0s.  Similarly with the prototype for his 4 cylinder engine Churchward built No 40 (later 4000) as a 4-4-2, again to enable comparison with the French engines.  But all the production series engines in the 'Star' class were built as 4-6-0s, no doubt afterexperience with the six coupled 'Saints' had established them as having adhesion advantages over the 4-4-2s.