E117 Brake Composite

[Star-rider]

Looking through the very entertaining  “New Collets from old” thread, I came across a post from Re 6/6 with a photo of an E78 etch which I found enlightening whilst at the same time it threw up a number of questions that you good knowledgeable people on here may be able to assist me with.

 

 

 

 

Another of the formations I am building calls for a 70’ brake composite and as far as I can make out the Haye Developments model is the only game in town even though it is discontinued?

 

I watched an auction site for several months (no, it was not Southerby’s or Christie’s) and I pounced on one that came up as an “etch only, missing one compartment division”. When it dropped through the letter box and I took a good look at it I found it was actually an end that was missing and not a division.

 

It was also difficult to try and work out how the thing was supposed to go together and it was only after seeing the photo in Re6/6’s post that it was confirmed to me as I was beginning to suspect, that I am missing a complete etch, as illustrated at the top of the picture.

 

For convenience I have reproduced the image here, if that upsets the rights holder please let me know and I will remove it immediately.

 

I’m also baffled by the parts of the etch that I have put a ring around on the image, can anyone tell me what they are and where they should go (I know I am going to be having a face-palm moment when all is revealed, but I honestly don’t know if they are door overlays or part of the underframe!)

The underframe may have to end up as a “freelance”, I have purchased some brass channel to form solebars with and I will get the usual Comet castings. The “trusses” are another grey area though, a photo in Russell’s Appendix One suggests that these are a lighter rod type truss rather than the more usual angle iron? Also could anyone confirm that it is probably 9’ American bogies I am seeing? If so, I will probably use Stafford Road Models 3D printed units as I have had good running from those in the past and they will take standard Hornby coach wheels and it is easy to plug in a tension lock coupler.

 

The E78 has now become part of Project Furlough as I am now stuck at home with time on my hands and mindful of a slightly reduced income and I would like to see if I can progress it over the next couple of weeks.

 

Given what I have to work with, could anybody offer any suggestions on how best to take it forward? At the moment I have the “box” soldered up, the missing end has been replaced with one of the compartments which in turn has been substituted by a bit of Plastikard. The underframe seems to be the next place to go if I can get some guidance followed by the interior and then the roof. Putting the roof on last is a bit daunting as I have not built in that sequence before.

 

As the kit came without any castings it is going to have to be the version with the plated over ducket area if that influences any advice that can be given.

 

Do you think I would get away with painting this one up as all-over brown for a 1930’s period?

 

Once again, thanks in anticipation.

 

Pete.

[Miss Prism]

48 minutes ago, Star-rider said:

what they are and where they should go (I know I am going to be having a face-palm moment when all is revealed, but I honestly don’t know if they are door overlays or part of the underframe!)

 

They are the etches forming the guard's duckets.

 

Pete Waterman did supply cast whitemetal alternatives at one time, but I doubt he's got any left now...

 

Read Coach bogie's posting regarding later bogies and guard's duckets. The underframe is a flat truss-rod and queenpost arrangement, sort of prototype 'Bars I'.

 

Quote

Do you think I would get away with painting this one up as all-over brown for a 1930’s period?

 

Definitely not.

 

Here's a couple at the head of a down express behind a Saint:

https://picclick.co.uk/pt9880-GWR-Steam-Train-passing-Twyford-Signal-362949080879.html

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by Miss Prism

[Star-rider]

Thank you Miss P.

 

The instruction sheet in so far as it is legible referred to the duckets as a "casting" and as there was not one included in what I had purchased I put it out of my mind and had not given a thought to the fact that those etches might have been associated with it. They are plated over now, so those will go into the scrap box.

 

As the coaches were a 1905 build I assumed that they would originally have been sent out in brown & cream, however my understanding was that an all over brown was used between 1908-1912 followed by Crimson Lake from 1912- 1922. Not knowing how frequently a coach may have had a repaint I suppose I was hoping that one of those simpler schemes may credibly have been applied and hung around for a while. Frankly this is a mixture of ideleness and the desire to have something a bit different running in the formation.

 

Pete.

[Miss Prism]

30 minutes ago, Star-rider said:

Not knowing how frequently a coach may have had a repaint I suppose I was hoping that one of those simpler schemes may credibly have been applied and hung around for a while.

 

No way.

A note on coach livery repainting intervals

 

[Wenrash]

I actually have a complete, not made up, kit of this product.

Firstly you DO have the complete etches as supplied in the kit. Miss P is quite correct in saying that your ringed part is an etch of the projections (Duckets) fitted to the E78's. The casting kit also contain whitemetal versions of these items.

This kit is an early etched kit. No interior is provided. The three partitions are only spacers to hold the sides apart. You have photographed the back side of the coach side etch. The left hand two partitions, in your photo, are the ends with paneling etched on the other side.

You really have to make up a complete interior to get anything like the full size.

 

You have the underframe as provided. It is not a channel but an etched vertical with taps that fit to slots in the floor. Also foot boards are provided which slot into the vertical. You have the four flatbar truss items but not the two lost wax castings  which make up the four trusses.

I believe that these 70ft coaches had 10in channel solebars. Can somebody confirm that they were not bulb angle?

The instruction are simple compared to modern kits.

 

Richard A

[Wenrash]

PS I wonder if you have the full instructions. Here is the diagram part of the instructions.

 

Richard A

 

[Siberian Snooper]

 

Another of the formations I am building calls for a 70’ brake composite and as far as I can make out the Haye Developments model is the only game in town even though it is discontinued?

 

 

 

David Geen also did a 70ft brake compo Dia 99/104, also discontinued.

 

 

[Coach bogie]

1 hour ago, Siberian Snooper said:

 

Another of the formations I am building calls for a 70’ brake composite and as far as I can make out the Haye Developments model is the only game in town even though it is discontinued?

David Geen also did a 70ft brake compo Dia 99/104, also discontinued.

 

 

Both kits are now with David Geen. David took over the Hayes range.  Test etches were run of all the Hayes films and some kits were made up. A run of the tool vans were sold last year, but family commitments and recent events have stopped any further sales. Below is made up from the test etch. The kit originally came with Americans but many images show the £78 with 9 ft bogies, specially after the look out was removed. This one has ex Airfix/Hornby autocoach 9ft bogies from Peter's spares. (I use these all the time under South Wales 70ft stock and others). There are two E99/104 on the shelf at David's, but he is not venturing out of the house, at present.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Star-rider]

6 hours ago, Wenrash said:

I actually have a complete, not made up, kit of this product.

Firstly you DO have the complete etches as supplied in the kit. Miss P is quite correct in saying that your ringed part is an etch of the projections (Duckets) fitted to the E78's. The casting kit also contain whitemetal versions of these items.

This kit is an early etched kit. No interior is provided. The three partitions are only spacers to hold the sides apart. You have photographed the back side of the coach side etch. The left hand two partitions, in your photo, are the ends with paneling etched on the other side.

You really have to make up a complete interior to get anything like the full size.

 

You have the underframe as provided. It is not a channel but an etched vertical with taps that fit to slots in the floor. Also foot boards are provided which slot into the vertical. You have the four flatbar truss items but not the two lost wax castings  which make up the four trusses.

I believe that these 70ft coaches had 10in channel solebars. Can somebody confirm that they were not bulb angle?

The instruction are simple compared to modern kits.

 

Richard A

 

Thanks for your input.

 

I think perhaps I was not clear enough in my post, the ptoto of the etch in my OP was robbed from the New Colletts From Old thread which is what prompted me to look into this build again.

 

The uppermost of the three etches in the previous photo was not sent to me with what I purchased and as mentioned one of the ends was also missing. What I actually have to play with is in my own photo below. On reflection I think I bought a bit of a lemon with the missing end and underframe etch.

You will note that I have used one of the partitions to replace the missing end folded it up and dropped in some Plastikard in to replace the robbed partition. A you will see I have also purchased a bit of brass channel and a comet roof extrusion plus some fittings. I think I can make something of the upper structure but it is the underframe I am going to find challenging.

 

As for the instructions; well it's a bit like the reverse of having parts without instructions - I'm sure if I had the missing etch the instructions would make a lot more sense. If I'm not being too cheeky would you be able to help me with a clear photo of the etch I am missing (or even a scan)? I could then perhpas try to get some idea of how to try to replicate or bodge up what I don't have.

 

Thanks for the information about the solebar depth - that suggests that I should be looking for someting of around 3-3.5mm and it is some 3mm channel that I have to hand so a bit lean, but it will probably do.

 

Appreciated..

 

Pete.

 

 

[Star-rider]

I knew this was going to be trouble, it must be like the feeling you would get if your new neighbour arrived and unloaded a trombone from the removal van…

 

Unfortunately no further information about the underframe was forthcoming, so feeling alone and in the dark I pressed on regardless. From the etched markings on the underside of the body I worked out that four pairs of queen posts were required which lead me to assume that the coach probably sat on four turnbuckle trusses. A search on the net did not turn up anything specifically Great Western, so I ordered the etch offered by Wizard / Comet for LNER Gresley coaches. Hopefully it does not look too Northern, there is no obvious evidence of cloth caps or Whippets 

 

Their etch included a pair of trusses each for 51’ and 61’6” coaches. Obviously the longer one was probably going to be a bit on the short side for a 70’ GWR chassis but it was all I could seem to find to work with. The 61’6” trusses were hacked about to fit the underside on the outer edges and then I cut the trusses from the 51’ set at the point where they would be between the queen posts and then spliced in some scrap brass to reconnect the cut ends. Fortunately the truss section (including the turnbuckle) between the queen posts and the carriage ends was the same length as the 61’6” option. This was all hard work that I am not accustomed to but seemed preferable to cutting down a large overhanging branch and repairing a fence panel as my wife was encouraging me to – “I just need to finish this coach dear…” I had done a lot more “modelling” to achieve this than I would normally undertake but at least there is a representation of an underframe down there now even if badly compromised.

 

The missing end had to be dealt with next. As previously mentioned I had already poached one of the brass internal divisions so that the body could be formed, a bit of Microstrip was dug out which looked about right in width as has been glued on with contact adhesive in an attempt to produce some faux timbers to match the other end. The steps in the kit were originally designed to pass through slots in the ends but as the slots were not present I bent the tabs of the steps back to ninety degrees and positioned them as best as I could with some superglue. End castings including buffers corridor connectors and jumper cables from the Comet range have also been added. I think from the photos below most will agree that I have certainly fauxed it up.

 

 

The 9’ American bogies from SRMW / Shapeways have arrived and have been fitted with Hornby 14.1mm dis wheels and tension lock couplings inserted into the NEM sockets. I’m confident it will run fairly freely which is just as well, I probably will be wanting it to pass away from my line of vision as quickly as possible if it ever gets placed on the layout.

 

The build sequence is scaring me a bit, I’ve never finished a coach by adding the roof on at the end and I need to be certain that the interior, glazing, window bars etc. are all in place before the roof is fitted with the two part Gorilla Glue (which incidentally I have discovered can be used for more things than repairing broken gorillas). I’m going to take some time to think this through and probably do myself a bit of a tick list.

The E117 is going to be a much compromised model, but hopefully if closely coupled to its adjoining coach in a dimly lit smoke filled room, with luck I may get away with it.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Star-rider

[richbrummitt]

1 hour ago, Star-rider said:

 

The 8’ American bogies from SRMW / Shapeways have arrived

 

Is that a typo? I thought that all 70' coaches ran on 9' bogies.

[Star-rider]

9 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

Is that a typo? I thought that all 70' coaches ran on 9' bogies.

I'm sorry it was, I have now edited.

 

(The problem is that the 8 and 9 on my keyboard are so damn close together, if the 8 was between 3 and 4 it would never have happened).

[Coach bogie]

Some of the 70ft South Wales Stock acquired heavy duty 7ft bogies during their lives.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[richbrummitt]

5 minutes ago, Coach bogie said:

Some of the 70ft South Wales Stock acquired heavy duty 7ft bogies during their lives.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

I should have been clear that I was referring to American bogies.

[exet1095]

That’s looking really good.  I’m building one of these at the moment too. You are missing the small underframe etch. It mainly had truss bars etc on it.

 

just a word of caution. I have gone for Bachmann plastic wheels, ex-Collett 3rds, as the metal wheels you have fitted tend to rub through the paint if you have tight curves, and then cause short circuits.

[simonmcp]

On 05/05/2020 at 14:45, exet1095 said:

That’s looking really good.  I’m building one of these at the moment too. You are missing the small underframe etch. It mainly had truss bars etc on it.

 

just a word of caution. I have gone for Bachmann plastic wheels, ex-Collett 3rds, as the metal wheels you have fitted tend to rub through the paint if you have tight curves, and then cause short circuits.

Just read in an old MRJ that Pendon stick sellotape (aka sticky back plastic) to stop the wheels shorting.

[richbrummitt]

They're still at it with tape too. There's a picture in the most recent friends paper, #105 about getting trains in iod working order, showing two pieces of black tape under the end of a coach for the purpose of insulation. 

[Star-rider]

Sorry guys, but the last few posts have lost me a little - is it that some builders are having problems with the wheels making contact with the underside of the coach floor?

 

I've always gone for metal wheels and never had a problem, having said that I am always running in plastic bogies (in the instance of the E117, they are 3D printed).

 

(When I converted to DCC a few years ago I did have a lot of problems with shorting as the DCC system is perhaps a little over-sensitve for reasons of self preservation. The only solution to this in the end was upgrading all my pointwork to electrofrogs - OK you can do something by switching rolling stock wheels to plastic, but one will never be able to do that with a loco).

 

THe E117 is looking a  little better now that she has started to put some clothes on and the next job is the roof. I had purchased a length of the Comet aluminium extrusion in the hope that I could use that, but it is not sitting right. Does anyone know what type of roof would have been supplied with the Haye kit and if it or something similar is still available?

 

Thanks,

 

Pete.

[exet1095]

Hi Pete,

 

the Haye kit has a vac-formed roof moulding, along with instructions on how to cut it down, fit the styrene rain strips, add ventilators and fix to the top of the carriage.

 

it looks like you are ahead of me - I need to paint the partition and add seats and compartment floors and walls. I may also repaint the crimson on mine as I have decided that it is too ‘fire engine’ for my taste. Halfords no longer has the range that it had last time I bought, a dozen or so years ago, and I cannot find a decent cream. I do wonder about Mini ‘Pepper White’ or the Fiat equivalent... 

 

I will dig out the instructions tomorrow and pm you the roof sheet if you’d like.

 

Paul

[Star-rider]

12 minutes ago, exet1095 said:

Hi Pete,

 

the Haye kit has a vac-formed roof moulding, along with instructions on how to cut it down, fit the styrene rain strips, add ventilators and fix to the top of the carriage.

 

it looks like you are ahead of me - I need to paint the partition and add seats and compartment floors and walls. I may also repaint the crimson on mine as I have decided that it is too ‘fire engine’ for my taste. Halfords no longer has the range that it had last time I bought, a dozen or so years ago, and I cannot find a decent cream. I do wonder about Mini ‘Pepper White’ or the Fiat equivalent... 

 

I will dig out the instructions tomorrow and pm you the roof sheet if you’d like.

 

Paul

Thanks,

 

Any information could be of value. I suspect that I won't easily get my hands on a Haye Vac-formed unit now so I feel another bodge comming on...

[Taz]

Wouldn’t this coach have the earlier, higher arc roof profile? The Comet one is a sort of mashup between Mk1, LMS and later GWR profile.

 

MJT do the earlier GWR profile roof. I think it may be the same as the LNER profile?

 

 

[exet1095]

The MJT roof profile does not match the ends, with a 2-3mm gap at the apex when sitting on the tops of the sides.

[Star-rider]

This one has been to sleep for a bit longer than it should again.

 

Once again, my thanks to those that have contributed their suggestions etc. I thought I should drop a note on how it ended up in case anyone else comes across this thread in the future when having a similar problem.

 

 In the absence of anything else coming to light I purchased an MJT (LNER?) roof extrusion to see what it would look like. The results are in the photo below which for my standards in now “finished”, as @exet1095 has noted it is a little high but to my eyes at least not too noticeable. If I had known the solution lay here I would perhaps have fitted the roof and filled it before doing my mock panelling on the ends – there’s no way that I am going to make a job of cramming Milliput in there now and making any sort job of filing it back with all of the Microstrip and end fittings in place.

 

I’m just pleased that at least I have something to represent a 70’ brake composite which is a rare beast in model form at the moment.

 

Now to find a Siphon J from somewhere…

[The Johnster]

On 22/11/2020 at 19:32, Star-rider said:

Now to find a Siphon J from somewhere…

Not cheap, about £120 all included, but Stafford Road Works/Shapeways do the Siphon J as a set of 3D prints, bodyshell, roof, underframe and bogies, all available separately.