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Ray Von

Shelf Layout Dimension Query

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Posted (edited)

340195976_IMG_20200412_1747197142.jpg.fabe6fd2ab20b2c51e36415a37bd92bc.jpgHi all,

 

I've been away from rmweb for nearly a year now, but I'm settling into a new home and want to set up a new layout.

 

I will be using 'n' gauge track, mostly salvaged from my other layouts.  I have a couple of questions, as all my paraphernalia is in storage I'm trying to plan my new set up on paper...  So, firstly - forgive the diagram, it's not to scale - I'd like to know if anyone has any ideas regarding the minimum depth that this shelf layout could be?  I have some platform kits made up but I'm unsure of the depth, I think about 75mm from memory - this will have a bearing obviously.

I'm also considering having the topmost section of track going into a tunnel, and potentially UNDER the other sections, this too will make a difference.

Lastly, I'd like to use a crossover section of track - does anyone have any experience / warnings about this idea?  I could just add another set of points but I like the added interest of the crossover and have never used one on a layout...

 

Apologies if I've made any glaring errors, as I say I've been away from the hobby a while and all my stuff is in storage.

 

Good health all and thanks in advance. 

 

 

Edited by Ray Von
Added image, finally!

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If you download Anyrail 6 you'll be able to draw your plan out full scale using accurate point templates and print out the finished plan full size. Once you have the trackplan you'll be able to decide on your scenic which will give you an indication of baseboard depth.

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By crossover I'm assuming you mean a double slip. It works basically like two points back to back, Depending on your chosen control system you may have to treat it as a section in its own right. Fron your plan I would suggest that over/under might not work out in the available length.

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Thanks Rex, at the moment I only have my phone / tablet - can I get anyrail to work on them?  Also, the crossover is peco st 50/51 I believe.  

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Posted (edited)

Your track plan is very similar to the classic “Minories” by CJ Freezer. No offense, but yours looks like a train set, his looks like a model railway. 
 

Take look at this blog. There is a development of the original halfway down the first page which has dimensions which will help with your width query even if you don’t use this exact plan; it’s for OO so it’ll need adjusting for your N Gauge. Click on the link to Gavs Workbench to see a very nice layout; plenty of inspiration. 
 

https://esngblog.com/2016/12/18/minories-1-the-original-design/

 

Good luck. 

 

 

Edited by wirey33
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Thanks for that link, Wirey - that's a big help - I particularly like the Victoria Park layout.  Heartening to see that I'm sort of headed in the right direction.  I've done a bit of finger and thumb mathematics and I THINK I should be able to squeeze layout onto a 8" to 12" shelf with current design.  I'm also looking at moving it to an alternative wall, which could increase overall length to 8'!!!

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Peco also do printable versions of their track, so you can have a play with various ideas. This works well if you can’t use one of the computer based track design programs. 
 

I very much like the kick-back siding idea, it gives a whole new activity to the layout rather than just a train in, train out, which could become dull very quickly. It removes the traverser possibility and shortens the storage sidings, but I think that’s worth it for the extra interest a shuntable siding would bring. 
 

 

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Thanks again, Wirey.  I don't have access to a printer right now, so I'm trusting in pen and paper for the time being...

  Getting back to the kickback siding, could you elaborate on their purpose on a layout such as this?  (My rolling stock is mainly 70's - 80's passenger service, I also have class 08 shunter and some mineral wagons...) 

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Kickback siding

 

Domestic coal? Would work with your mineral wagons for the 70's, but they would have been HEAs by the 1980s though. 

Timber?

Oil terminal?

Vans - Deliveries to a warehouse - Full of anything from Avocados to Y-Fronts?

Departmental siding with a crane, some ballast wagons?

 

Train arrives into the siding above the platforms, propels the wagons into one of the sidings and then goes off to re-fuel / stable somewhere. The 08 shunter comes off the second siding and shunts half the train into the warehouse/oil terminal etc. Shunter swaps over the two halves of the train, then joins the two halves togther and pulls them to the bufferstops. Train engine returns, couples up and off we go.

 

The layout shown on the Gavs Workbench has both coal and Warehouses. I really like the two different lengths of warehouse sidings, creates some interest and moves away from the "cram in as much as possible" school of layout design.

 

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If you are modelling a 4 platform station then it's going to be a city urban setting and the chances of there being coal or produce at such a site in the 1980s is low.  At the other end of the line in the suburbs that could happen like Bromley, but not a 4 platform station.

 

A kickback into a small multiple unit depot (a la Marylebone) is more likely - your station is going to need more trains in the rush hours so having trains arrive and stable in the mornings, then leave stabling and return to the suburbs in the evening rush hour is a more likely use of the space than an urban freight depot.

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Thanks, chaps.

  Some inspiration there - I've just rustled up a quick sketch, a three track station (forgot to add platforms) and a kickback siding that could have buffer stops or lead back to traverser section...

IMG_20200413_160106~2.jpg

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In 00, Peco Streamline track centres are 2" (although 45 mm is the scale dimension in 4 mm scale).  For N gauge, I would assume your tracks will be around 1" track centres, so if you plan to have four tracks, allow four inches.  The minimum width of a double sided platform on the real railway is 12', so that will be another 24 mm in N, so lets say one inch.  You'll need more if you plan to have any platform furniture other than a sign or a lighting column.  I'd therefore say that the absolute minimum width that you could accommodate your plan in would be six inches.  You then need to think about what extra depth you want for scenery.  Personally, I'd want at least an inch at the front and a couple of inches at the back, which would increase the minimum to about nine inches.  However, if you can build something wider, I would.  It really depends on what looks best scenically.  A wider board would also allow you to build something which isn't dead straight.

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21 hours ago, Ray Von said:

Thanks Rex, at the moment I only have my phone / tablet - can I get anyrail to work on them?  Also, the crossover is peco st 50/51 I believe.  

Unfortunately it only works with Windows.

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Posted (edited)

Thanks, that's really useful stuff.

Here's how the plan is developing:

*Edit - I can already see a problem, the kickback siding should be first from the left. Oops.

IMG_20200413_184109695.jpg

Edited by Ray Von
As above.

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Don't forget that, unless you have the road entering the traverser as far towards the front (bottom in the plan) of the layout as possible you will have to leave room for the rear traverser roads to slide out behind the layout; as this is a shelf there will be a wall in the way.  The traverser can only slide one way, towards the front, from it's 'resting' postition, so there needs to be room in front of the layout at that end to support it on some sort of framework.  If this is a very restricted space, which I'm guessing it is because of the need for such a small shelf setup in the first place, this may run you into problems accommodating the traverser.  An answer if this is the case might be to devise a vertically operating traverser, which can also carry more stock, as it's capacity is limited only by headroom (bear in mind you'll need to get your fingers in there) and the distance from the shelf to the floor, or the ceiling, whichever is least.  Needs to run very smoothly on it's vertical runners at each end, though.

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Posted (edited)

The last version of your trackplan is going to be really dull to operate. Train In / train out won't give you much variety.

 

I go back to the Minories layout - it's been repeated hundreds of times times because it's a really optimal arrangement for a small terminal. Add in the kickback siding to some kind of industry (or a Parcels / Newspapers depot for an 80's timesscale), perhaps extend the loco siding to accommodate a DMU and it's about as good as your going to get in a restricted space.

 

 

Edited by wirey33
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12 hours ago, wirey33 said:

The last version of your trackplan is going to be really dull to operate. Train In / train out won't give you much variety.

 

I go back to the Minories layout - it's been repeated hundreds of times times because it's a really optimal arrangement for a small terminal. Add in the kickback siding to some kind of industry (or a Parcels / Newspapers depot for an 80's timesscale), perhaps extend the loco siding to accommodate a DMU and it's about as good as your going to get in a restricted space.

 

 

Thanks for the input, Wirey.  I'm still a bit confused re: operation - what are my alternatives to "Train in / Train out". Obviously I don't want to build this layout and have no fun with it.  Could you elaborate on my options?  Thanks again for your help, it's much appreciated.

 

 

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In the meantime, here's a development that utilizes two kickback sidings...

IMG_20200414_115606437~2.jpg

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I'm wondering if the similarity to Minories is restricting our thinking to urban suburban termini.  Ray hasn't said what period, if any, or type of operation, if any, he is interested in.  Train in train out suggests mulitple unit operation, which would not be enough to satisfy me; I need locos, and shunting.

 

I would be happier therefore to see a run around loop of some sort on the layout, so that a locomotive could arrive with a train, couple off, run back past the train on another road, and recouple to the other end ready for the return run.  Or it can attach to another train.  Or it can shunt the train to carriage sidings and proceed somewhere to be serviced, either returning later or being replaced by another loco.  The train does not have to be a passenger train; even with a suburban terminus parcels, postal, or local express freight traffic might be handled in the off peak, and overnight.  One of the kickbacks might have an ashpit and water facilities for steam locos, or a fuelling point for diesels, with an office for crews to sign on or off duty, or it could be a siding to a small industry of some sort.

 

Because there is a means of a loco running around a train, all this is suddenly possible; at a stroke we have advanced a long way from 'train in, train out', and we still have 'train in, train out'!  If the run around loop is in the platforms, it will restrict the length of train that can be cleared in the loop by the running around loco, so it might be better outside the station utilising one of the kickbacks as the loop; a timetable can be arranged for it to be available to other traffic at other times.  This means that a really intense rush hour service is going to need 'topping and tailing'; the train arrives in a platform, the loco couples off, another loco couples to the other end, and, when departure time rolls around, takes the train away, leaving the original loco at the buffers.  You now have a choice of what to do with this. you can couple it to another train brought in by another loco, or it can go off stage to shed, or it can lay over in the loco servicing siding until it is needed.

 

This basic sort of operation is not restricted to urban suburban traffic, it can be used on any branch line type of layout, but is most suited to suburban operation.  My criticism of it is that there is no freight, but this is less of an issue for a post Beeching layout.  More modern operation tends to favour multiple units, and is to my mind less interesting because of that, but an intense rush hour with trains whizzing in and out, running on to a fuelling road then having to clear it for the next one, all to a tight schedule, is operating fun!  But I would want to include a freight terminal of some sort in order to include locomotives, and here we run into a problem; small modern termini with freight facilities are like rocking horse doodoo, and modern freight stock is large and space consuming.  

 

This sort of precludes locomotives for current period modelling, but if Ray is thinking in terms of anything prior to period 6, it will benefit hugely from a run around loop.

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Wow, Johnster - thanks for that loads of inspiring ideas.  My rolling stock is late 1970's BR, I do have a couple of class 08 shunters too.

I have moved the topic over to here:

https://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/153473-has-this-layout-got-legs/

So as more people know that the discussion is more about the running of the layout now.

 

Thanks again, I really like your ideas.

 

 

IMG_20200414_150152118.jpg

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9 hours ago, The Johnster said:

I'm wondering if the similarity to Minories is restricting our thinking to urban suburban termini.  Ray hasn't said what period, if any, or type of operation, if any, he is interested in.  Train in train out suggests mulitple unit operation, which would not be enough to satisfy me; I need locos, and shunting.

 

I would be happier therefore to see a run around loop of some sort on the layout, so that a locomotive could arrive with a train, couple off, run back past the train on another road, and recouple to the other end ready for the return run.  Or it can attach to another train.  Or it can shunt the train to carriage sidings and proceed somewhere to be serviced, either returning later or being replaced by another loco.  The train does not have to be a passenger train; even with a suburban terminus parcels, postal, or local express freight traffic might be handled in the off peak, and overnight.  One of the kickbacks might have an ashpit and water facilities for steam locos, or a fuelling point for diesels, with an office for crews to sign on or off duty, or it could be a siding to a small industry of some sort.

 

Because there is a means of a loco running around a train, all this is suddenly possible; at a stroke we have advanced a long way from 'train in, train out', and we still have 'train in, train out'!  If the run around loop is in the platforms, it will restrict the length of train that can be cleared in the loop by the running around loco, so it might be better outside the station utilising one of the kickbacks as the loop; a timetable can be arranged for it to be available to other traffic at other times.  This means that a really intense rush hour service is going to need 'topping and tailing'; the train arrives in a platform, the loco couples off, another loco couples to the other end, and, when departure time rolls around, takes the train away, leaving the original loco at the buffers.  You now have a choice of what to do with this. you can couple it to another train brought in by another loco, or it can go off stage to shed, or it can lay over in the loco servicing siding until it is needed.

 

This basic sort of operation is not restricted to urban suburban traffic, it can be used on any branch line type of layout, but is most suited to suburban operation.  My criticism of it is that there is no freight, but this is less of an issue for a post Beeching layout.  More modern operation tends to favour multiple units, and is to my mind less interesting because of that, but an intense rush hour with trains whizzing in and out, running on to a fuelling road then having to clear it for the next one, all to a tight schedule, is operating fun!  But I would want to include a freight terminal of some sort in order to include locomotives, and here we run into a problem; small modern termini with freight facilities are like rocking horse doodoo, and modern freight stock is large and space consuming.  

 

This sort of precludes locomotives for current period modelling, but if Ray is thinking in terms of anything prior to period 6, it will benefit hugely from a run around loop.

Yes the run around loop is a much needed addition IMO. Otherwise even the kickback sidings are merely 'shunt in, shunt out'.

 

The version of Minories with the added 2 sidings (for goods or parcels traffic), would appear to be a more pleasing layout.

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Posted (edited)

Thank you, kevinlms.

 

Try as I might, I can't seem to shoehorn a passing loop into the 6' scenic space I have...

 

I have added a goods depot on the left of the plan, between the two kickback sidings (I like the peco goods depot, but that is only available in 00 sadly.)

 

I have a pair of four car EMU'S, among my rolling stock, along with a Deltic and other diesels in BR Blue, plus two class 08 shunters.

 

I was thinking that the top most kickback could be used for storing carriages, uncoupled from the diesel units at "platform one" by a class 08.  Allowing the diesel to leave the station and the carriages to be returned by the shunter, ready for a fresh loco to be coupled to the now "front" end of the rake.

 

I also thought that the second siding could be used for one of the EMU'S to be waiting in readiness during rush hour to attend "platform two."

 

And thirdly, both sidings will obviously serve the goods depot.

 

That sounds pretty busy to me, but am I right?

IMG_20200415_092358572.jpg

Edited by Ray Von
Typo

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