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Hmm... Trams or setting first...

 

I'll go with setting.

 

Starting, then, with the location - Fairly obviously this is to be Bermondsey (I say obviously but plenty of London area stations don't have particularly appropriate names for their locations!), and to be specific just to the North of the Surrey Canal and West of the South London Line, here in fact:

1252571791_Layout1.png.4fbc12c043eef3d460fc0c1815758c86.png

The blue line represents the tramway, so more on that later, the green represents the electrified, primarily passenger, line, the maroon represents the goods only line and its connection to the South London Line, the pink being a connection to the East London Line. The green line, the upper level on the model is supposed to run from Victoria, coming off at Battersea Park, curving sharply to follow an Eastward trajectory a short way South of The River towards the Nine Elms area, then towards Kennington and Bermondsey, with services terminating at New Cross Gate.

 

I've yet to flesh out a full history for the line yet, but I'm contemplating having it as being built by the LBSCR at some point in the early-mid 1860s as their own equivalent to the South London Line, rather than a joint venture with the LC&DR. In this instance the above map would be incorrect - The maroon line would replace the South London Line at this point rather than join it as the latter wouldn't have existed. This is all to be worked out and I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to incorporate this into South London's railway maze. I always like to give any layout I build a comprehensive false history as A.) I enjoy the research, B.) It's useful to help inform realistic infrastructure decisions and C.) It's fun to confuse people!

 

As you can see the line on the map shows a through station, but the layout design appears to show a terminus. The crude explanation? The viaduct at this point has suffered from severe bomb damage (that further gives away the era!) and thus through services have been curtailed, instead reversing at Canal Road. The platform nearest the front will be shown as out of used and the line will be used only by works trains.

 

So, about the era. It ought to be apparent by now that the layout is to be set during the Second World War, and various features of the layout will reflect this. Besides the excuse for terminating trains short there is the inclusion of a bomb site at the front of the layout, converted into an Emergency Water Supply as was reasonably often done with bomb sites. This is also an artistic decision as besides setting the mood, period and location it fills an inconvenient gap between the yard headshunt and the street, whilst also allowing a full view of the latter. There will be other, more subtle features and judicious use of white paint! I shall be reading up on exactly what the 1939 blackout regulations demanded and how that had been implemented (or not) by November/December 1940, which is when I plan to specifically set the layout. As with Blackstone West the intention here is to model a miserable day, one where it's just rained - a challenge and not something I've personally seen on a layout. I'm also thinking of going for early evening lighting to help with that setting of the mood.

 

Returning to the local railway geography, I'm hoping that connecting the yard into the East London Line will allow a bit of variety from other companies. I am very much a Southern modeller, but have a liking for many of Stratford's products so the yard might end up playing host to the occasional Buckjumper. If I'm being naughty then some of my LT stock might put in an occasional appearance too.

 

Right, next up: Trams.

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Trams. A somewhat more fluctuating interest than my interest in London's railways but one I have very much returned to of late. My first ideas for a tram based layout were many years ago and the plan was to model part of Bradford Corporation's 4ft Gauge system (using 00 track that'd be ideal!) but it never got beyond the track planning stage. I've gradually come to have a better interest and knowledge of trams through my interest in early electric railways (the two have quite a bit in common, and of course were often in competition). London's tramway system was particularly appealing as I rather like the look of the E1s and there's the additional advantage that if one models part of the London County Council system one need not worry about modelling the overhead catenary! Two things tipped me over the edge, the first being an offer from Charlie Connor (L49 of this Parish for a card-built E1 and the second being this - one of British Transport Films' best:

Although documenting the final demise of London's tram system some 12 years after the period of the layout it captures perfectly the atmosphere that I want to recreate on the layout with some beautiful shots and fitting words - The rain, the trams and the streets of South London. There's a strange sort of nostalgia there, but I personally find that I relate to it - A lost world that for some reason or another I think is worth recreating in model form!

IMG_20200409_150227.jpg.5e19bfa971419ed782ed7455d4f8219d.jpg

*

 

I have also, in the past few days, built an E1 from a Tower Trams kit and am rather pleased with it so far! It's a bit rough in the paint job, but it'll do for now. It's currently awaiting lighting and the required mesh on the windows (to partially obscure said lighting - blackout regs) and the fabrication of the devices used to partially conceal the headlamps. It's also very noisy, almost sounding like the real thing, so if I find a bell it shan't be needing a sound chip. Despite the noise it runs well enough, however.

IMG-20200412-WA0011.jpeg.76dd6077af3e20368d006bdffe1d517a.jpeg

Oh and it needs transfers, as well as weathering of course.

 

Just got to build the layout now... ;)

 

*About the photo - It's confusing me somewhat as there appears to be a barrage balloon in the sky yet the scene seems rather too bright to be under blackout conditions - the tram displays no signs of any appropriate treatment (full headlamp, no mesh on the windows, black as opposed to white bumper). Thoughts? I can't see why anyone would fake it, but it just doesn't quite seem right.

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Good luck with this one, Sem, the high level / low level idea seems to come off well in other layouts using urban settings. If you want to soak up some of the atmosphere of South London immediately after WW2, May I recommend a look at an old film, a kids and robbers job set in 1946, called “Hue and Cry”.

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FYI by the beginning of the war almost all London trams had had the vestibles enclosed. Those few that remained with open vestibles were used for staff transport and very rarely if ever were used in passenger service. Also, as you've set your layout close to the major LT depot at Charlton you have a good excuse for running engineers trams such as stores vans and snow brooms.

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2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

FYI by the beginning of the war almost all London trams had had the vestibles enclosed. Those few that remained with open vestibles were used for staff transport and very rarely if ever were used in passenger service.

B*gger! I was hoping that nobody would notice - I'm aware that they closed most in during the 1930s, but was hoping that I could push it a bit and get away with one in 1940. The kit comes with the windows to enclose the platforms but the ceiling layers aren't long enough as it's intended for the open platform variety. I'll keep the relevant bits and see if I can modify it later.

2 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Also, as you've set your layout close to the major LT depot at Charlton you have a good excuse for running engineers trams such as stores vans and snow brooms.

This is part of the plan, especially stores vans - I assume some stuff would be moved from Charlton to smaller depots such as Canal Road?

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9 hours ago, sem34090 said:

*

 

 

*About the photo - It's confusing me somewhat as there appears to be a barrage balloon in the sky yet the scene seems rather too bright to be under blackout conditions - the tram displays no signs of any appropriate treatment (full headlamp, no mesh on the windows, black as opposed to white bumper). Thoughts? I can't see why anyone would fake it, but it just doesn't quite seem right.

Looking at that picture there is what appears to be a barrage balloon, but above it a shape which  think is Zeppelin. If so the barrage balloon may be a Zeppelin at a different angle.

Spooky as my wife lived in Varcoe Road just off Canal road when we met. & we then lived there together for 3 years or so until we moved to Kent.

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Hmm... more research needed, but I doubt that it would be a Zeppelin. I agree about the shape, but as far as I can tell the Germans had them scrapped by March 1940. The shot definitely isn't First World War as the tram is in London Transport, rather than London County Council livery and I don't think barrage balloons were used during the First World War (though I may be wrong). The clothing of the people present also suggests Second World War.

 

The layout is actually set immediately (as in about 100 yards) North of Varcoe Road, with the tram depot replacing the parish hall. If you have any photos or recollections of the buildings in the area I'd be delighted to see them as Google maps indicates it's been heavily redeveloped of late.

 

The original intention had been to call it 'Bermondsey (Surrey Canal Road)' but that was a bit long-winded, and Surrey Canal Road didn't exist at this point as it was still the Surrey Canal! The shortened name worked well, however, so I propose that 'Canal Road' is, in reality,part of what today is known as Verney Road (but I don't think it was known as that back then).

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I've done a bit of 'Googling ' and going by the street lamp on the right, it looks like it might be Victoria Embankment, which is part of that trams route.

Don't know if that helps.

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Thanks - That reaffirms what I thought. If the route and location didn't match I'd be raising even more questions

 

Edited by sem34090
Of course it's not an E1... silly me!
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Agree with the post just now, it is the section of tramway on the Embankment close to Blackfriars Bridge, confirmed by the curvature of the track and presence of shelters.  Looks like the tram is descending from Blackfriars to the river side 'inner rail or anti-clockwise line towards  Westminster, thereafter to Peckham Rye.  Can't offer any suggestion on the background other than there would be street furniture and buildings in the distance.  Clearly, the tram body is M Class [readily converted from the Tower E/1], 3 side windows up and down, and can just make out the unusual and bulky truck side.  It's the right type for the 84 which traversed Dog Kennel Hill.  Livery of the tram, and the type, puts the image at maybe late 1920s to early 1930s.  Not much later, routes like the 84 were taken over by the new HR/2 types.

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Hmm. And so the mystery deepens. At first, in my ignorance, I thought it to be an E1 but the body is clearly too short so it's an M as you say. It's a conversion that I'm now contemplating for some future date.

 

The date you give seems to tie in with the fact that the car appears to have its number in LCC rather than LT font despite apparently being in LT livery. That, to me, would place the livery as 1933/34. And yet there's that very distinct barrage balloon... Is this an early/mid '30s shot that someone has simply put a barrage balloon into to pass it off as wartime? All the other details seem to match, but why would someone fake it?

 

Is that actually LCC livery then? I was looking for this -

LCC-106-1024x660.jpg.71a8dc11764b863935089a05bff84c21.jpg

The M above is certainly not in that livery.

Edited by sem34090
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LCC had a 'Pullmanisation' programme from the mid-1920s, including updating the vehicle interior and exterior.  The E, E/1 and M Class would be included, earlier classes not.  The main livery colour was red, and without checking books my recollection of the description was something akin to Fire Engine red [is this in any range of model paints?] which is fairly rich and deep.  The LCC symbol was a small shield shape, centre of the upper of the lower bodyside panels.  Can't see in the image whether this is present.  Transition to LPTB initially involved changing to the LT bodyside name and legal lettering, but not an immediate change of numerals, and might be a couple of years to get round to full repainting.  The presence of an M Class vehicle on the 84 suggests [again without looking at books] that it is not LT era image, because [I believe] the HR/2 vehicles [bogie, equal wheel cars] took over the 84 and related routes while LCC were in charge.

 

https://www.tramwayinfo.com/tramways/Lcc/Picload.htm?l18078ar.jpg

M Class in 'Pullman' form

Edited by Engineer
Use of English and added asde,
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Interesting...

 

So one can only assume that the balloon is a misnomer -or something else altogether- and the shot is, as you say, late '20s/early '30s? All details besides those in the sky seem to be consistent with that.

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1 hour ago, 73c said:

I've done a bit of 'Googling ' and going by the street lamp on the right, it looks like it might be Victoria Embankment, which is part of that trams route.

Don't know if that helps.

It is indeed the Victoria Embankment but the tram is about to cross Blackfriars bridge. The M class were no longer in service when the war started. When London Transport was created in 1933 the M class was in the process of withdrawal a few were kept on to replace older 4 wheelers in IIRC Bexley as the trams there were only fit for scrap. The class was withdrawn when trolleybuses took over c. 1936 in Bexley. A couple did survive until the end of trams in 1952 but they had been Lengthened and mounted on bogies and re-classified as members of the E class.

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Closest quick match to the original area.  Same elaborate shelter on left side of both images, same lay of tracks, but just a bit lower, nearer the Embankment proper.  In this image, the 38 tram is on the other road to the original, clockwise on the Embankment and about to turn for the bridge and South London.

https://www.londontramways.co.uk/search/tram_picsview.php?pic_id=26220

 

Map extract showing the area and the curving of tracks in the vicinity of the bridge.

1978226921_MapBlackfriarsareaLCC1930s.jpg.9343ede73627495ed623205a535eda33.jpg

 

Couple of additional images in the vicinity, source Crich Tramway Museum.  First is an opposite direction view, LCC Class A in original livery, second is 1950s.

wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=i

 

wwwopac.ashx?command=getcontent&server=i

 

Edited by Engineer
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Interesting, and not far from me, not that there is much of that era left there. Are you comitted to housing adjacent to the tram depot? If that block was industrial, a 3/4 relief chimney could hide the end of the sky hiding the upper fiddle yard.

I'm looking forward to watching progress in this.

 

Dave

 

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I'm thinking of filling that corner between the end of the housing, the depot and the backscene with the Southern elevation of St Bartholomew's church. Hopefully, as it was quite a tall building, this will produce a similar effect.

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Hi Sem.

 

So much information in such a small space of time. All so familiar. Now where to start ????

 

Firstly may I ask if you are nocturnal, as you seem to send out most of your stuff in the early hours ?

 

I feel like you are treading on my toes.

 

Looking at the map, usefully just above here, I can advise that I lived the first 25 years of my life in Credon Road. which is in the top left corner, in No. 31 next to No. 29 as shown on the map. I also went to Sunday School at St Bartholomew's and my secondary school was just off the top of the map, Credon Boys Secondary Modern. I also had an uncle and aunt who lived in Verney Road for a time, before moving to Chubworthy Street in Deptford.

A substantial area to the West of Credon Road was bulldozed in the 1960's to make way for the notorious Bonamy Estate. All of that has been subsequently bulldozed again and replaced with smaller blocks of housing.

All of the housing to East side of the Credon Road was bulldozed at a later date, including our house, the church and my old school, the only exceptions being the church vicarage and the pub, The Bramcote Arms (IIRC).

Now here's the important part, virtually all the housing in this area was two storey terrace houses laid out in a large estate going back to the 1870's. From memory, most of the houses had bay windows, some being square like ours and others like a half hexagon. So you need to seek out appropriate kits or scratch-build the surrounding area to this standard.

 

Now to get down to nuts and bolts.

I am trying to work out what you have altered on the map. Credon Road used to continue down to become Varcoe Road. The parish rooms were not there, so I present that they had been bombed and replaced with post war industrial buildings that housed Dell Plant Hire to name one and a timber yard that was served by the canal at the bottom end before the road turned East.  I think that you have placed some additional houses here, but the area South of Verney Road at this point and below that on Varcoe Road were both un-redeveloped bomb sites, so you could see right down to the boundary wall of the canal, although there was no public access to it there. You did however know when there was a tug and steel lighters going down the canal, as you could see the top of the funnel on the tug above the wall as it went along. 

 

The bomb site on Verney Road had a cardboard box factory built on (George Howard's), it was very useful to us younger modellers (1960's), as at the back they had a yard where they dumped all their off-cuts which they were quite happy for us to take away and use for scratch building houses etc for our layouts. When I had a walkabout in this area last year, the factory was in the throws of being demolished. Full circle

 

Incidentally, as you may be aware, South Bermondsey Station closed during WW1 as an economy measure. A new station was later opened with the same name in 1927 (I think) at a location slightly further South East of the original. This was actually in Deptford ! Mind you when we lived in Credon Road, everybody said it was in South Bermondsey, although it was actually in the top North East corner of Camberwell borough at that time and the Postal Code was SE16, which was Rotherhithe.  Confused !!!

 

Your final tramway alignment, depot and sidings seem to be along the course of the canal. There is now a Surrey Canal Road which was laid out along part of the course of the canal, although that is further to the East and runs from where Canterbury Bridge once stood on Ilderton Road up to Trundley's Road where there was an interesting almost hump-backed bridge.

 

I see that you are paying homage to Charlie Connor, one of our old muckers, using images of his Street Level Models range which I believe he is in the throws of re-launching, together with his expanding 3D printed Loco range. We also know his dad Jim well, back from the days when he edited and published the London Railway Record.


Incidentally, are you familiar with the 'Ha'penny Bumper' ? This was a horse tramway which operated a little more to the North. The middle part of it ran along Southwark Park Road and it threw off branches to Dunton Road and Spa Road at the West end and Rotherhithe Red Lion pub North East end and Canal Bridge, bottom end of Rotherhithe New Road, just off the Old Kent Road. This succumbed during WW1 never having been electrified and I believe was the last horse drawn tramway to operate in London.

 

Nice picture of Car 106 in LCC livery. We visited the LCC Tramway Trust depot at Bethnall Green several times while that car was being restored and have also ridden on it several times at Crich.

 

I am surprised that Colin Withey has not posted on here yet. He is a mine of information about tramways in London. No doubt he will pick it up later.

 

I hope that this is of interest and be most happy to fill in gaps which you might have about the local area.

 

I am Secretary of our local model railway club, Southwark and District M.R.C. and note that there are several posters on here who seem to live in or have past connections with our catchment area., Our modelling interests seem to have followed similar paths. I have modelled Hawkhurst Station, Kent (SE & CR), and also work on our club layout of Crystal Palace High Level (SR), as well as our Chairman Steve's St Mellion layout (GWR), which we treat as a club layout. I am however also contemplating a working bus layout and another simple underground layout on two levels, possibly combined and have also acquired quite a bit of stock and buildings for a military themed layout.

 

I look forward to seeing further updates.

 

All the best

 

Ray Blanchard

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