Bermondsey (Canal Road) - 1940s South London in 4mm

[73c]

4 hours ago, coline33 said:

Would anyone be interested in a 2-SL or 2-WIM EMU?   I loved travelling on the 2-WIMs and helping the Beddington Lane signalman on Saturday mornings with the gates and exchanging the staffs.   Years ago I started on a 2-WIM for "West Croydon" so to make a change to the Bachmann 2-EPB that I 'redressed' for the number 2.   At the time a 3D print producer offered to take my plans and do a kit but pressure of my time then just 'kicked it into the rough' for sometime in the future.   Colin.

Both of those sound good, make a nice change and something different.

[coline33]

An interlude!   A 2-NOL stands in the bay platform at "West Croydon" for Wimbledon.   In the days of oil lamps the 2-SLs, 2-WIMs as well as the 2-NOL kept their headcodes in place at both ends.   Yes, 2-NOLs have been photographed on the number 2.   But have 2-NOLs ever had to stand in on the South London Line?   Also did the units on the SL Line in oil lamp days keep their number 2s up at both ends all the time?

 

By the way that is a coal empties train returning to Norwood yard from Waddon Marsh.   Enjoy, Colin.

[sem34090]

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Sem and Colin.

 

Just been re-reading the foregoing notes.

 

A few further snippets of information:

The rear elevation of St Bartholomew's church was actually the parish rooms which seem to have been moved across the road on your plan. The church was very substantially built of red brick. The parish rooms a two storey building was IIRC built of yellow brick.

The church might still appear on the backscene so although the layout has moved forward slightly this is nonetheless useful information!

 

The parish room was moved to fill an awkward gap.

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

The correct name for the canal was the Grand Surrey Canal. It was not very grand, although when originally built the developers aims were for it to extend as far as Portsmouth. In effect it never got further than Camberwell Road with a branch off to Peckham, Canal Head most appropriately. It was a sailing barge canal with no locks, basically an extension of South Dock at Surrey Docks. There was also the Croydon Canal which branched off the Surrey Canal. This had a relatively short life following a fairly torturous route from New Cross up I think a ladder of thirty locks to the summit at Brockley. This was a tow path canal the barges of which had problems getting along the Surrey Canal to the junction as the latter had no tow path ! The London and Croydon Railway bought it and used the straight bits as part of its track bed down to West Croydon Station.

By 1950 the Surrey Canal had gained a towpath, at least along the section beside Varcoe Road, which poses a problem if one is to have wharves on both sides of the canal at that point!

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

A couple of things related to the horse tramway might be off interest. If you have or can get a copy of the 1894 or 1914 Deptford North map which adjoins the Old Kent Road one, on the left hand top corner, coming up Rotherhithe New Road, right on the edge on the South London Line is the original South Bermondsey Station, opened 1866, closed 1917, and just a little bit further north is Southwark Park Station which dated for 1902 and closed in 1917, on the Greenwich line. (Just above Rotherhithe Road Carriage Depot). The horse tramway ran past both of these, so there was some interaction. South Bermondsey Station had at this time three tracks, but only two platforms on the outside tracks. The middle track was a fast reversible one used in the rush hour. This ran all the way through to Peckham Rye station. Intermediate Old Kent Road Station had only two platforms, but Queens Road Peckham and Peckham Rye both had three platforms. There are I think three nice H.C. Casserley photos taken off the platform at South Bermondsey and a couple taken off the platform of Southwark Park, but none taken at ground level of the outside of the stations. Some of the remains of South Bermondsey were there until not that long ago and I wrote an article about it for the London Railway Record. They were however demolished prior to the adjacent arches being refurbished. The ground level building at Southwark Park was fairly plain and still stands apart from the loss of a few architectural features.

Incidentally, there was a horse tram depot along side Queens Road Peckham Station in Station Passage. When I first moved to where I live now, you could see the remains of the horse tram tracks through the broken tarmac surface which included at least three passing places. These were subsequently torn up and scrapped when they resurfaced the road despite being offered and declined by Crich. A couple of years ago a few more lengths of rail appeared when the cleared the forecourt area in front of the station on the corner of Queens Road and Asylum Road. these would have formed the entrance to the depot. I think that I have seen a picture taken down Station Passage which showed these tracks without the tarmac, but I cannot remember where I saw it.

Interesting...

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

The railway development is this area was very complex and after allowing for the main lines running south from London Bridge Station you have to add the connecting lines from the East London Line and the Deptford Wharf Branch. These included the ELL connection to New Cross, the up ELL link on the west side of New Cross Gate and the down ELL link on the east side of New Cross Gate. There were also the connection coming off the South London Line at Old Kent Road Junction. This split three ways the left line to the ELL at Surrey Docks, the middle one to Deptford Wharf and the third one formed a loop back around eastwards to New Cross Gate and there were a lot of linking bits in between.

The Deptford Wharf Branch was an interesting one which we researched around thirty years ago as a possible layout project. Originally called the Thames Junction Railway, this was a goods only branch built by the Brighton to a railway owned wharf on the Thames incorporating the old established Dudman's or Deadman's Dock. This connected in to the lines to New Cross Gate and the South London Line and its route crossed the Grand Surrey Canal, first on a lifting bridge then further north at a higher level on an over bridge. The wharf was more or less divided into two halves with Grove Street forming the boundary. The inland half was a substantial yard and the river side half an equally large wharf complex including a very large covered dock area. There were two signal boxes, three level crossings and a massive foot bridge which spanned the lot. Also, which might be of particular interest, there was a line which came out of the east side of the yard and formed the Grove Street Tramway that ran down the middle of the road to the Corporation of London Foreign Cattle Market. Between the Wharf and the cattle market was the Royal Victualling Yard, later Royal Victoria Yard which had its own metre gauge system and in the cattle market was some standard gauge and it own 18 inch system. So there was plenty of scope for traffic between these different points and the main lines as well as the connections north of the river via the East London Line, over which you also had Underground services.

I sized up the prototype for a layout having an approximate 12 ft river frontage by about 8 ft inland depth up to the bridge and we produced a set of display panels showing a large number of photographs of the wharf branch, but we did not develop it as a layout as we found that all the the goods workings were loco worked up to the landward side of the yard, but were then shunted using capstans across Grove Street which although making a very nice diorama, would have been virtually impossible to operate. 

I've previously contemplated elements of Deptford Wharf for a layout, but the main thing I'm gleaning from the above currently is that I can justify ex-LBSCR and ex-GER, with some LT if I feel really naughty and don't care for accuracy, with just the one connection, to the ELL and Deptford Wharf? Or have I completely misunderstood you?

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

Unfortunately I do not have any photographs taken of the area where I used ti live, but would be interested in seeing your pictures of Barkworth Road.

They may be found here-

https://collage.cityoflondon.gov.uk/quick-search?q=Barkworth&WINID=1587227189974

 

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

I presume that your Blackstone West layout is of a fair size and is currently located in a clubroom somewhere.

Indeed, on both counts. It is too big to be set up for any great amount of time at home.

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

I do not know what your current space availability at home is, but baseboards built to a modular format from standard 4ft x 2ft plywood panels might suit your requirements. These can usually be purchased from suppliers (B & Q) ready cut to size so you just have to cut and assemble the frames from timber. Two of these would give you a good length and depth for a reasonable sized layout with a good opportunity for longer sidings and shunting potential. It would also be quite easy to store on its end if fitted with packing boards.

4ft x 2ft would, ordinarily, be my standard baseboard size but in this instance the space is restricted to 5ft x (roughly) 18ins so smaller boards will be required. The original plans, and the 3D visualisation are to these measurements. In the future I'd look to have additional fiddle yards and to extend the layout's width to 2ft, the extra 6ins allowing inclusion of the canal.

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

I hope that this some of this might stimulate some further thoughts. Open for comment.

 

All the best

 

Ray

Thanks, once again.

 

[coline33]

An opportunity?   I note the interest in using RTR four wheel mechs to power plastic and card constructed bogie trams.   Probably the cheapest such mech is by Tenshodo.   Following the demise of ABS Models, I have a need of the white metal adaptor floor for WB26 that ABS introduced for the Anbrico tram kits.   This has a good weight factor and can also be used as the basis of building the 6'6"wheel base London works cars.   Please contact me direct for more detail if interested.   Colin.

[Joseph_Pestell]

8 minutes ago, coline33 said:

An opportunity?   I note the interest in using RTR four wheel mechs to power plastic and card constructed bogie trams.   Probably the cheapest such mech is by Tenshodo.   Following the demise of ABS Models, I have a need of the white metal adaptor floor for WB26 that ABS introduced for the Anbrico tram kits.   This has a good weight factor and can also be used as the basis of building the 6'6"wheel base London works cars.   Please contact me direct for more detail if interested.   Colin.

 

8 minutes ago, coline33 said:

An opportunity?   I note the interest in using RTR four wheel mechs to power plastic and card constructed bogie trams.   Probably the cheapest such mech is by Tenshodo.   Following the demise of ABS Models, I have a need of the white metal adaptor floor for WB26 that ABS introduced for the Anbrico tram kits.   This has a good weight factor and can also be used as the basis of building the 6'6"wheel base London works cars.   Please contact me direct for more detail if interested.   Colin.

 

I'm sure that there must be better options that would give better, slower running. e.g. Roco chassis from Sik or Y8400 shunter.

[coline33]

There are always other options but this has the weight and right size to take a works car body and give the correct 4mm, scale wheel base to match the truck sides.

[wainwright1]

Hi Sem.

 

Thanks for the pictures. I can relate to a couple of them, taken not long before the whole lot was demolished.

I think that the pub building is still standing. Not sure if it is still a pub though. I know that it was closed, re-opened and closed again. It was used for location filming for a couple of tv programmes back in the 1970's/80's.

 

Don't worry about the connections as there so many permutations and they are all off scene so really anything goes.

I think that I can recall seeing pictures of a rail tour which came down the East London Line with Met No. 1 on the front, or L44 as it was lettered then. I think that there was also a visit from Sarah Siddons or one of the other Bo Bo electrics.

 

I am concerned that you are using the full length of the board for your sidings, but bearing in mind that you do not have any run round facilities, once you get a loco on there  you only really have the basis of a shunting puzzle where you can bring stock in, but cannot take it out again.

 

I'd like to know how you did your 3D visualisations, obviously using Charlie's kits and back scenes, but probably too complicated for me to do.

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[wainwright1]

2 hours ago, coline33 said:

An interlude!   A 2-NOL stands in the bay platform at "West Croydon" for Wimbledon.   In the days of oil lamps the 2-SLs, 2-WIMs as well as the 2-NOL kept their headcodes in place at both ends.   Yes, 2-NOLs have been photographed on the number 2.   But have 2-NOLs ever had to stand in on the South London Line?   Also did the units on the SL Line in oil lamp days keep their number 2s up at both ends all the time?

 

By the way that is a coal empties train returning to Norwood yard from Waddon Marsh.   Enjoy, Colin.

 

Talking of oil lamp days Colin, I think that Queens Road Peckham was the last station in London to have gas lighting on the platforms. I believe that Brading on the Isle of Wight was the last station in the country to have gas lighting.

 

All the best

Ray

[sem34090]

22 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Sem.

 

Thanks for the pictures. I can relate to a couple of them, taken not long before the whole lot was demolished.

I think that the pub building is still standing. Not sure if it is still a pub though. I know that it was closed, re-opened and closed again. It was used for location filming for a couple of tv programmes back in the 1970's/80's.

 

Don't worry about the connections as there so many permutations and they are all off scene so really anything goes.

I think that I can recall seeing pictures of a rail tour which came down the East London Line with Met No. 1 on the front, or L44 as it was lettered then. I think that there was also a visit from Sarah Siddons or one of the other Bo Bo electrics.

I have Heljan's rendition of No.1 in Wartime Grey that's looking for a home but that would be really pushing it!!!

Quote

I am concerned that you are using the full length of the board for your sidings, but bearing in mind that you do not have any run round facilities, once you get a loco on there  you only really have the basis of a shunting puzzle where you can bring stock in, but cannot take it out again.

I hadn't considered that. I might rework the line in/out to include one end of a loop, the other end being in the fiddle yard.

Quote

I'd like to know how you did your 3D visualisations, obviously using Charlie's kits and back scenes, but probably too complicated for me to do.

 

All the best

 

Ray

As with all my 3D work, and indeed all of Charlie's 3D work, Sketchup was the software used. I've gradually learned how to use this over the past 8 years or so and thus unfortunately can't offer any real advice on it! It's a free software, and consisted of my importing the trackplan as an image, scaling it to full size and going from there. For the buildings I took screenshots of Charlie's artwork and scaled it to A4 size. I then drew round each part (effectively the virtual equivalent of cutting it out) and folded them up!

14 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

 

Talking of oil lamp days Colin, I think that Queens Road Peckham was the last station in London to have gas lighting on the platforms. I believe that Brading on the Isle of Wight was the last station in the country to have gas lighting.

 

All the best

Ray

Certainly in regular service I think you're right but I can think of at least one heritage railway station still using its original gas lighting (Alresford on the MHR).

[wainwright1]

Hi Sem.

Here's a question.

Are your depot sidings electrified ? That will limit what you can run into there.

 

Another snippet:

Don't forget that the East London Line had a depot for its passenger stock located between the forks of the New Cross Gate and New Cross branches. I assume that prior to electrification there would have been facilities for steam locos there as well. I cannot remember now how the line was worked and if they operated their own stock then. I do know that the Brighton and the GER amongst others worked services through the Thames Tunnel to Liverpool Street  from Peckham Rye and some through the widened lines via the St Mary's curve. I think that most of this fizzled out after the South London Line was electrified in 1909, but the freight traffic  continued until the 1960's.

 

I have just cross matched you with Alex, so I would guesstimate that you club is in the Hastings area ?

 

All the best

 

Ray

[sem34090]

2 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Sem.

Here's a question.

Are your depot sidings electrified ? That will limit what you can run into there.

Naturally it will. I probably won't as I can't think why they would be.

Quote

Another snippet:

Don't forget that the East London Line had a depot for its passenger stock located between the forks of the New Cross Gate and New Cross branches. I assume that prior to electrification there would have been facilities for steam locos there as well. I cannot remember now how the line was worked and if they operated their own stock then. I do know that the Brighton and the GER amongst others worked services through the Thames Tunnel to Liverpool Street  from Peckham Rye and some through the widened lines via the St Mary's curve. I think that most of this fizzled out after the South London Line was electrified in 1909, but the freight traffic  continued until the 1960's.

Indeed.

[coline33]

On the East London Line aspect, for the latter part of 1957 I commuted from New Cross Gate to Surrey Docks.   The stock then was the Owls - Type F - quite a contrast in ride from the 4-SUBs that I used from Norbury to New Cross Gate.   So what was the ELL stock in 1940?

 

Regarding all the buildings on "West Croydon", John Clarke produced them all from photography of individual buildings and their parts, including from aerials from his researching in Croydon Central Library - so no kits, etc.   Most of the photography had to be done in the winter months when the trees were bare.   He then developed his own programmes and printing.   Backgrounds again were produced by him.   The buildings are mostly individual and I  and dismantling took considerable time because of the unpacking and placing and then repacking for storage!!!   John was a professional in that art so used his past livelihood in retirement. 

[wainwright1]

Hi Colin.

 

Very interesting details about the buildings.

 

I was lucky when developing my Hawkhurst layout that there had been two series of aerial photos taken in 1949 and 1951 (IIRC) , by John Piper, some of which were published in the Middleton Press book on the Hawkhurst Branch Line. Subsequently I met John Grant who had been the surveyor for the Bluebell Railway and was a friend of one of our club members who had a complete set of the pictures and let me have some copies including some not in the book. These showed some features that did not appear in previously published books and enabled me to add extra details to the layout.

 

With regard to the stock used on the East London Line, I think that up to about 1952 the stock used was the old 'B' stock with the clerestory roofs and manually operated doors. The 'F' stock must have come after this, and then I think that it was 'P' stock followed by the famous 'Q' stock. Then for a couple of years the 1938 tube stock. Luckily they did not raise the track level as after this they reverted to the surface type  'A' stock and refurbished 'A' stock. (I may stand corrected).

 

I have a DVD which illustrates most of this stock in use on the East London Line

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[wainwright1]

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2020 by wainwright1
Duplicated

[PhilJ W]

The F stock came into use on the East London Line in 1953. Prior to that it was a mixture of District C, D and E stock. This stock was broadly similar to each other and unlike the Q stock looked a lot tidier. 

[sem34090]

That's mildly irritating - I'd hoped to squeeze in an F Stock double-ended DM occasionally, not that it'd have any legitimate reason to appear on the upper level (unless I add a bay... South Acton inspired?).

[PhilJ W]

You could also try this.

4 minutes ago, Pandora said:

In SE London,  the Grove Street Tramway,  associated with the Deptford Wharf Yard , ran throuh public areas

 

http://www.olddeptfordhistory.com/2011/05/grove-street-catch-bus-or-train.html

But I dont think third or fourth rail electrification is possible.

[coline33]

19 hours ago, coline33 said:

An opportunity?   I note the interest in using RTR four wheel mechs to power plastic and card constructed bogie trams.   Probably the cheapest such mech is by Tenshodo.   Following the demise of ABS Models, I have a need of the white metal adaptor floor for WB26 that ABS introduced for the Anbrico tram kits.   This has a good weight factor and can also be used as the basis of building the 6'6"wheel base London works cars.   Please contact me direct for more detail if interested.   Colin.

KW Trams have now been able to insert the ABS tram parts into their mainstream website so can now take orders directly.

[wainwright1]

53 minutes ago, PhilJ W said:

You could also try this.

But I don't think third or fourth rail electrification is possible.

 

This was a quite short goods only tramway so would not require electrification. Interestingly, this started off with horse drawn wagons, then the Corporation of London purchased a petrol locomotive and a couple of vans. Finally the tramway was worked by the steam locos from the main yard. They did try an 08 shunter towards the end, though it was not very successful.

The tramway route out of the yard changed twice during its existence.

The first route bizarrely reversed out of the wharf side, crossing several tracks on one of the level crossings before proceeding down the street. No pictures of this unfortunately, but there is a signal box diagram showing this configuration.

The second route came out of the side of the main yard, fairly conventional curving down towards the road..

The third route took advantage of bomb damage flattening some houses which cleared space that enabled a more gentle curve out of the yard, although there was still a bit of a gradient down into the road which caused problems for the 08 shunter and some of the larger steam locos that were tried.

There are quite a few pictures of the train negotiating the tramway.

The original cattle market later became an army stores depot and later still became Convoys Wharf where Rupert Murdoch brought in the paper for his gutter press publications. I have not been down there recently, but I believe that this has all now closed and the site is due to be re-developed into blocks of luxury flats.

Interestingly, there was a small engine shed just to the left side of the gates of the entrance to the cattle market  where the tracks entered. This was still standing when we researched and photographed the location, although that particular entrance did not look like it had been used for many years. The engine shed was subsequently demolished.

All the best

 

Ray

 

[coline33]

Yes, Ray, Convoys was a paper importing wharf until Murdoch found a purchaser to convert it into a general purpose and Ro/Ro wharf to which a close work colleague of mine then became its Managing Director and turned it round.   Like everything else business, transportation routing, etc. changes.   The freed-up water space has become the Greenwich Cruise Terminal with possibly the tightest river pollution control regulations in the world!!!   

[wainwright1]

Grove Street Tramway.

Not many pictures on the web.

Here's some inspiration for Sem.

Breath in.

A nice Southern shot of what looks like a push-pull fitted ex-Brighton D1 working the train.

This was probably the most used type of loco on the tramway.

 

No parking controls then.

 

I think that the building on the right was the Queen Victoria pub.

 

Convoys Wharf. This was where the entrance to the cattle market was. 

The gateway has been considerably widened. The tracks used to go in at an angle on the corner.

The loco shed was to the left just inside the gateway.

 

Hope you find useful.

All the best

Ray

 

 

[sem34090]

Hmm... Food for thought...

[wainwright1]

1 hour ago, coline33 said:

KW Trams have now been able to insert the ABS tram parts into their mainstream website so can now take orders directly.

Hi Colin.

 

Are we talking about the former Tower plastic tram kits ?

 

All the best

Ray

[wainwright1]

1 hour ago, coline33 said:

KW Trams have now been able to insert the ABS tram parts into their mainstream website so can now take orders directly.

Hi Colin.

 

Are we talking about the former Tower plastic tram kits  or whitemetal kits ?

 

All the best

Ray

[sem34090]

I believe they passed to BEC - The ABS kits are whitemetal.