Bermondsey (Canal Road) - 1940s South London in 4mm

[sem34090]

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Sem.

 

So much information in such a small space of time. All so familiar. Now where to start ????

A very good question!

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Firstly may I ask if you are nocturnal, as you seem to send out most of your stuff in the early hours ?

Haha... Not intentionally. This current situation has thrown my body clock completely out of kilter.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I feel like you are treading on my toes.

Sorry!

 

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Looking at the map, usefully just above here, I can advise that I lived the first 25 years of my life in Credon Road. which is in the top left corner, in No. 31 next to No. 29 as shown on the map. I also went to Sunday School at St Bartholomew's and my secondary school was just off the top of the map, Credon Boys Secondary Modern. I also had an uncle and aunt who lived in Verney Road for a time, before moving to Chubworthy Street in Deptford.

Blimey... That's two people in this thread who lived locally! This is tremendously useful.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

A substantial area to the West of Credon Road was bulldozed in the 1960's to make way for the notorious Bonamy Estate. All of that has been subsequently bulldozed again and replaced with smaller blocks of housing.

This is what I had gathered from old maps and Google...

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

All of the housing to East side of the Credon Road was bulldozed at a later date, including our house, the church and my old school, the only exceptions being the church vicarage and the pub, The Bramcote Arms (IIRC).

Now here's the important part, virtually all the housing in this area was two storey terrace houses laid out in a large estate going back to the 1870's. From memory, most of the houses had bay windows, some being square like ours and others like a half hexagon. So you need to seek out appropriate kits or scratch-build the surrounding area to this standard.

Thanks for this - I found some photos taken of Barkworth Road prior to demolition in the 1980s and by the sounds of it they'll be very useful indeed! Any further photos would be greatly appreciated.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Now to get down to nuts and bolts.

I am trying to work out what you have altered on the map. Credon Road used to continue down to become Varcoe Road. The parish rooms were not there, so I present that they had been bombed and replaced with post war industrial buildings that housed Dell Plant Hire to name one and a timber yard that was served by the canal at the bottom end before the road turned East.  I think that you have placed some additional houses here, but the area South of Verney Road at this point and below that on Varcoe Road were both un-redeveloped bomb sites, so you could see right down to the boundary wall of the canal, although there was no public access to it there. You did however know when there was a tug and steel lighters going down the canal, as you could see the top of the funnel on the tug above the wall as it went along. 

 

The bomb site on Verney Road had a cardboard box factory built on (George Howard's), it was very useful to us younger modellers (1960's), as at the back they had a yard where they dumped all their off-cuts which they were quite happy for us to take away and use for scratch building houses etc for our layouts. When I had a walkabout in this area last year, the factory was in the throws of being demolished. Full circle

I think the best answer is to post the original, unaltered, (1950) map, an earlier (1897) map and my altered map alongside one another -

(1897)

(1950 - Note the gaps.)

The altered map. I haven't added additional houses, but the layout is set in 1940 so not all of the bombsites are there yet.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Incidentally, as you may be aware, South Bermondsey Station closed during WW1 as an economy measure. A new station was later opened with the same name in 1927 (I think) at a location slightly further South East of the original. This was actually in Deptford ! Mind you when we lived in Credon Road, everybody said it was in South Bermondsey, although it was actually in the top North East corner of Camberwell borough at that time and the Postal Code was SE16, which was Rotherhithe.  Confused !!!

The joy of London stations...

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Your final tramway alignment, depot and sidings seem to be along the course of the canal. There is now a Surrey Canal Road which was laid out along part of the course of the canal, although that is further to the East and runs from where Canterbury Bridge once stood on Ilderton Road up to Trundley's Road where there was an interesting almost hump-backed bridge.

Indeed, though I'm afraid I have to correct you - The Surrey canal is at the very bottom of my map, serving a wharf on the bottom siding and the tramway alignment is along Verney Road. This map might explain that better (I'll explain the map properly in due course).

The blue is the tramway - The canal is just below the sidings and the gasworks below that.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I see that you are paying homage to Charlie Connor, one of our old muckers, using images of his Street Level Models range which I believe he is in the throws of re-launching, together with his expanding 3D printed Loco range. We also know his dad Jim well, back from the days when he edited and published the London Railway Record.

Charlie and Jim are good friends of mine, so I'm lucky enough to have full access to the kit range (hence my use of them on the layout!). The range is indeed being relaunched, with quite a few new 3D prints being developed as I write.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Incidentally, are you familiar with the 'Ha'penny Bumper' ? This was a horse tramway which operated a little more to the North. The middle part of it ran along Southwark Park Road and it threw off branches to Dunton Road and Spa Road at the West end and Rotherhithe Red Lion pub North East end and Canal Bridge, bottom end of Rotherhithe New Road, just off the Old Kent Road. This succumbed during WW1 never having been electrified and I believe was the last horse drawn tramway to operate in London.

I wasn't aware of that! If I can find a map it might form a basis for my tramway...

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Nice picture of Car 106 in LCC livery. We visited the LCC Tramway Trust depot at Bethnall Green several times while that car was being restored and have also ridden on it several times at Crich.

Not my photograph I'm afraid, though I'd love to visit Crich someday.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I am surprised that Colin Withey has not posted on here yet. He is a mine of information about tramways in London. No doubt he will pick it up later.

 

I hope that this is of interest and be most happy to fill in gaps which you might have about the local area.

Wonderful, thank you!

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I am Secretary of our local model railway club, Southwark and District M.R.C. and note that there are several posters on here who seem to live in or have past connections with our catchment area.,

Indeed! Unfortunately I'm down on the coast.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

Our modelling interests seem to have followed similar paths. I have modelled Hawkhurst Station, Kent (SE & CR), and also work on our club layout of Crystal Palace High Level (SR), as well as our Chairman Steve's St Mellion layout (GWR), which we treat as a club layout. I am however also contemplating a working bus layout and another simple underground layout on two levels, possibly combined and have also acquired quite a bit of stock and buildings for a military themed layout.

Oh very nice!

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

I look forward to seeing further updates.

Hopefully I can deliver.

5 hours ago, wainwright1 said:

All the best

 

Ray Blanchard

I'm trying to think why your name rings a bell...

[sem34090]

4 hours ago, dasatcopthorne said:

I have messaged my old friend Colin to let him know of the thread.

 

Dave.

Sounds... Interesting. 

 

Which Colin (I am aware of at least one who might be interested! - Builder of South Pimlico.)

[dasatcopthorne]

1 hour ago, sem34090 said:

Sounds... Interesting. 

 

Which Colin (I am aware of at least one who might be interested! - Builder of South Pimlico.)

 

I was replying to the post by Wainwright1 re Colin Withy.

 

Dave

[sem34090]

12 minutes ago, dasatcopthorne said:

 

I was replying to the post by Wainwright1 re Colin Withy.

 

Dave

Ah right - Apologies for the confusion on my part.

[sem34090]

Right, another one of those early posts I'm afraid.

 

Taking Mr Blanchard's mention of the horse tramway, I decided to plot it on the map and work out how it might be adapted to fit Canal Road.

The horse tramway is shown in dark blue, it's fictional extension in purple, with the LCC lines (real and fictional) shown in differing shades of light blue. The approximate layout area is in green. I'm personally inclined to stick with LCC for now, rather than drastically altering the history of the horse tramway but it's something to consider all the same.

 

Returning to this map -

I feel that  ought to explain the various connections. The current drafting of the history doesn't have the upper level line as a replacement for the South London Line, instead it's serving a different purpose (I'll explain that once the history has been sorted), so is instead connected to it thus permitting a circular operation out of Victoria. The yard connections are intended to be treated separately - There are three shown on the map but I intend for only one of them to be considered at any one time. The left hand spur, into Bricklayer's Arms, would be the one assumed to exist when running ex-SECR/SR locos in the yard, the central one would be assumed for ex-LBSCR/SR, ex-GNR/LNER and ex-MR/LMS locos with the pink connection to the East London Line being used when ex-GER/LNER locos are in use. Operation in a given running session would be based on any one, but no more than one, of those connections existing. Thus if it is assumed that the East London Line is serving the yard, traffic will be consistent with that. The same goes for all three possible connections.

 

Does that make sense? Probably not.

[coline33]

Many thanks, David, for mentioning me.   The LCC horse tram routes were numbered 88 and 90 covering Southwark Park Road and Rotherhithe New Road.   My attempts in the 1960s to get an operating tramway in the Lea Valley Regional Park when I was on the Tramways Sub-Committee of the BTC Clapham Museum when looking for a replacement location failed when LTE could only afford to transfer its part of the collection to a low cost site at Syon Park.   So with the demise of "West Croydon" I decided to go for the style of museum I had then wanted to see but now without the inclusion of trains, buses and trolleybuses, I developed a 'what if' history to substantiate the background to a layout. 

 

I had started on the basis that service 90 (the length of Rotherhithe New Road) had been electrified on conduit after WW1 from Deptford (junction with 68 and 70) to the Canal Bridge but did not cross it to join the services 36 etc. to New Cross Gate and the depot there.   Instead the LCC built a new depot about 1921 to replace the trailer depot at Evelyn Street, provide extra capacity to NX depot plus much needed storage for Charlton CRD.   The depot was at the extreme Canal Bridge end with the terminus outside.   I then took the 'what if' history through to 1951 and gave LTE a reversal in attitude - Rotherhithe depot becoming a tram museum (like that idea that had circulated in LPTB in 1938!).   Service 90 would then become a heritage line with the Deptford to Surrey Docks section retained for the service to start at the East London Line station there.   (A station I knew well as I started my career with the PLA there.)    I commenced building the 1921 depot using Kingsway's Brixton Hill depot with Recreation21 conduit track sections on three boards - depot terminus, Rotherhithe New Road with the railway bridge as the entry to the fiddle yard.   Having recycled past buildings for RNR I found that domestic changes were reducing my storage space so have replaced that project with a single board circular double conduit track (no points, no overhead - simple!!!) line called "High Road".   With some 40 LPTB/LTE trams now idle there is a great need to maintain and run with the prospect that "West Croydon" can be restored to exhibition operation again.   Anyone who is not on the "Brixton Hill depot" thread is very welcome there.   Hence David saw a similarity in the choice of area that I had done.

 

 

 

  

[coline33]

Having read through this thread, I must point out a misconception over the Class M cars.   They were greatly used on the four wheeler routes of the LPTB.   The LCC built the 1400 series for north side conduit only service 11 on Highgate Hill with special slot braking.   When the HR/2s replaced them some were renovated to replace the Leyton cars when LCC took over those operations whilst by 1933 others were stored in Hampstead.   The LCC built the 1600 series for the overhead lines of service 44 and rolled out conduit/overhead fitted cars to augment the Class C on Dog Kennel Hill routes but fitted them with electro-magnetic tracks instead of the slot type of emergency braking.   Replacement by HR/2s put many into store at Chiswick (tram depot) by 1933 when with the coming of LPTB the LCC reviewed the needs of the municipal systems to be unified.   The horrors of what was found with Bexley (trams) and Erith (track) immediately lead to the restoration of the Chiswick Ms for services 96 and 98 from Bexleyheath.   Camberwell did continue to work Ms on service 60 to Dulwich until the autumn of 1933 when they were transferred to Bexleyheath.   Some of the Hampstead Ms were renovated and returned to service from Leyton and West Ham where they were joined by the Bexleyheath Ms.   So for 1935 to 1938 all Ms were working the four-wheeler services of East London.   When service 99 went trolleybus in 1938, there were not sufficient trolleybuses for handling the peak West Ham stadium 'dog' traffic so a motley collection of 12 four-wheelers continued to operate service 99A till more trolleybuses arrived.   It was from these 12 that Type HA 290 (ex-West Ham) was selected for preservation (LPTB also offered a ex-MET bogie Type H for preservation but lack of space prevented this) and it was transferred to New Cross (now at Covent Garden).   However, it was not a conduit fitted car.   Think the fan trips that would have been made after WW2 if it had been so fitted.   Amongst the 12 'dog trams' was M 1691 still supporting some of the plough carrier fittings and I wish someone had realised this at the time and had it also transferred south with 290 as CRD would have made short work of fitting it for conduit and a revenue earning future.   So why not add a KW Trams Class M car in LT livery as 1691 with PRIVATE or SPECIAL on the blinds and blank service number stencil holders or with EX in Vener style.

[coline33]

Just an observation on the plans.   Remember there were no overhead wire tramways in that South London area and Feltham cars were only permitted on certain roads from the Elephant and Kennington to Charlton CRD including via Camberwell depot because of their greater length.  Look forward to seeing how your layout develops.     .   

[coline33]

Probably your guide to post-war LPTB/LTE trams without the expense of buying loads of books is <www.tramwayinfo.com>, click link to "London Tramways Notes", then particularly sections "Car Features at a Glance" and "London Transport Works Cars".   For a post WW2 conduit only South London layout then all the ex-LCC cars (passenger and works), ex-Croydon/East Ham E/l, ex-West Ham balcony and enclosed bogie cars and the Felthams plus Experimental 2167 can be used.   If you wanted to go back to prewar LPTB days irrespective of London area to add further cars that had conduit gear, there were ex-LCC Class M, ex-MET Types A (2 cars only), C/2, F, G, H, works car 05M (only London works car to have windscreens), ex-East Ham and ex-West Ham four wheeler balcony cars plus ex-West Ham four wheeler enclosed cars.   If you want to go 'what if' for tramcars then the LCC designed Class E/2 front exit double decker and Class N single decker for the proposed but not authorised Greenwich - Blackwall Tunnel - Poplar service would make interesting projects.   

 

Strongly recommend you use photos (also on this website) to model the variations found in body details of cars of the same Class/Type - its a 'minefield'!!!   As you can see there is a lot of potential just in the trams alone to keep you going for life!!!

[sem34090]

3 hours ago, coline33 said:

Amongst the 12 'dog trams' was M 1691 still supporting some of the plough carrier fittings and I wish someone had realised this at the time and had it also transferred south with 290 as CRD would have made short work of fitting it for conduit and a revenue earning future.   So why not add a KW Trams Class M car in LT livery as 1691 with PRIVATE or SPECIAL on the blinds and blank service number stencil holders or with EX in Vener style.

Now that's a nice idea! I'd already completed contemplated the conversion but it now looks like it wouldn't take too much bending of history to have one in 1940.

3 hours ago, coline33 said:

Just an observation on the plans.   Remember there were no overhead wire tramways in that South London area and Feltham cars were only permitted on certain roads from the Elephant and Kennington to Charlton CRD including via Camberwell depot because of their greater length.  Look forward to seeing how your layout develops.     .   

Thank you! I was aware of the lack of South London overhead, but thought (incorrectly?) that some depots serving conduit lines used overhead? I bow to greater knowledge, though I do rather fancy a change pit if I can justify one. I hadn't intended running Felthams as I imagine they're too long for the route.

1 hour ago, coline33 said:

Probably your guide to post-war LPTB/LTE trams without the expense of buying loads of books is <www.tramwayinfo.com>, click link to "London Tramways Notes", then particularly sections "Car Features at a Glance" and "London Transport Works Cars".

I've already made quite a bit of use of this! Particularly with regard to stores cars.

1 hour ago, coline33 said:

  For a post WW2 conduit only South London layout then all the ex-LCC cars (passenger and works), ex-Croydon/East Ham E/l, ex-West Ham balcony and enclosed bogie cars and the Felthams plus Experimental 2167 can be used.   If you wanted to go back to prewar LPTB days irrespective of London area to add further cars that had conduit gear, there were ex-LCC Class M, ex-MET Types A (2 cars only), C/2, F, G, H, works car 05M (only London works car to have windscreens), ex-East Ham and ex-West Ham four wheeler balcony cars plus ex-West Ham four wheeler enclosed cars.   If you want to go 'what if' for tramcars then the LCC designed Class E/2 front exit double decker and Class N single decker for the proposed but not authorised Greenwich - Blackwall Tunnel - Poplar service would make interesting projects.   

Well the period is neither pre-war nor post-war, being Winter 1940! I am hoping that this allows for greater variety than on a post-war layout on all fronts - tramway, railway and scenic. With an extra tram route to an imaginary depot I reckon I can bend history to include No.1691.

1 hour ago, coline33 said:

Strongly recommend you use photos (also on this website) to model the variations found in body details of cars of the same Class/Type - its a 'minefield'!!!   As you can see there is a lot of potential just in the trams alone to keep you going for life!!!

I've come to realise this! The Tower kit was a nice start, and means I do at least now have a tram, but it looks like even that will have to have its ends enclosed at some point.

[coline33]

Don't make it 1940!!!   Trams were then still running in East London, some were to come south the following year, but the still open fronted ones went into store at Hampstead as the war reserve.  By 1941 the first design of headlamp shield was being replaced by one that combined clear and red glass.   In the process the electrical circuits were changed in every car and the front side and platform service number stencil holders were being removed for the war effort so that by 1942 a stencil holder was inserted in the bottom right hand corner of the lower saloon window next to the platform.   Then of course you have white paint in appropriate places but the hardest aspect of wartime that I found to model was the anti-shatter mesh to the windows.   I spent hours scoring window glazing for modelling a wartime service 2 E/1 to go in BEC Models shop at Tooting Bec when the second version of the E/1 white metal kit come out in the 1960s.   Beware the Tower enclosed E/1 kit, it makes a perfect 2054 or one of its sister cars 2054-2061 and that is all!   These 9 cars were nicknamed "Rockets" because of their acceleration and speed hence in going south in 1939 they inter-worked with Felthams.   In 1940, 2054 was allocated to Streatham depot but the ex-Walthamstow E/1s were the first cars to be loaned to any other depot during the war.   Hard to maintain they soon became the noisiest trams in London and crews preferred anything else but these!   Prior to 1948 the legal lettering was black with LPTB in full and the trucks, life guards/trays, plough carrier and platform floor/step grey.   The 'side' fleet number was carried on the toolbox under the stairs.   When LTE came in the legal lettering was white and the grey parts became black.   The 'side' fleet number now in white and carried on the waist panel by the platform.   Again best to have photos!   

 

It is the Tower open fronted one that is best to modify to make a Croydon E/1 or change the upper deck end central window to suit the majority of E/1s.   The 'metal' windscreen of the enclosed kit is unique to the second series Walthamstow E/1s, so best to scratch-build the windscreens to the LPTB wooden design.   David Boyle made the same misreading of the Roche drawing as Frank Vescoe did with his first E/1 kit.   The best E/1 kit is BEC-Kits No.12 (white metal and has the best weight factor) available secondhand although a recent change in ownership is causing me to review what changes are needed to permit construction in the manner that I originally wanted way back in the 60s/70s as in the change a perfect E/3 upper deck has become available as carried by some E/1s.   The E/3s lower deck will have to be restructured to meet my standards before the whole E/3 kit can be considered for release.

 

A series of books I do also recommend are Robert Harley's London tramways in the Middleton Press range.   Robert's other London tramways books are very good but OK if you can spare the expense on books!     Even on "West Croydon" where the first and second generation trams shared where appropriate the same Croydon tracks, LPTB and LTE liveried cars were scheduled together on the same service.   Even open-top four wheeler 349 in LPTB livery returned from Bexleyheath to Thornton Heath to make up the number of cars available to work the 42s!  It was this mix of pre and post WW2 that appealed to the public at exhibitions.   Hope all this helps but to me I have always avoided modelling the war years.   Colin.

[sem34090]

32 minutes ago, coline33 said:

Don't make it 1940!!!

I'm reasonably set on that, though early 1941 is easy enough to flex to. 

Quote

 Trams were then still running in East London, some were to come south the following year, but the still open fronted ones went into store at Hampstead as the war reserve.  By 1941 the first design of headlamp shield was being replaced by one that combined clear and red glass.   In the process the electrical circuits were changed in every car and the front side and platform service number stencil holders were being removed for the war effort so that by 1942 a stencil holder was inserted in the bottom right hand corner of the lower saloon window next to the platform.   Then of course you have white paint in appropriate places

I'm afraid that I don't quite follow with regards the stencil holders, but white paint is already on the car!

Quote

but the hardest aspect of wartime that I found to model was the anti-shatter mesh to the windows.  

I have a cunning plan for this! More anon (once I've tested it)!

Quote

I spent hours scoring window glazing for modelling a wartime service 2 E/1 to go in BEC Models shop at Tooting Bec when the second version of the E/1 white metal kit come out in the 1960s.   Beware the Tower enclosed E/1 kit, it makes a perfect 2054 or one of its sister cars 2054-2061 and that is all!   These 9 cars were nicknamed "Rockets" because of their acceleration and speed hence in going south in 1939 they inter-worked with Felthams.  

Noted.

Quote

In 1940, 2054 was allocated to Streatham depot but the ex-Walthamstow E/1s were the first cars to be loaned to any other depot during the war.   Hard to maintain they soon became the noisiest trams in London and crews preferred anything else but these!   Prior to 1948 the legal lettering was black with LPTB in full and the trucks, life guards/trays, plough carrier and platform floor/step grey.   The 'side' fleet number was carried on the toolbox under the stairs.   When LTE came in the legal lettering was white and the grey parts became black.  

I assume, therefore, I shall need to get out the grey paint...

Quote

The 'side' fleet number now in white and carried on the waist panel by the platform.   Again best to have photos!   

To be perfectly honest I hadn't thought to look! I think I've learnt more about LT trams in the past few days than I knew in the past five years!!!

Quote

It is the Tower open fronted one that is best to modify to make a Croydon E/1 or change the upper deck end central window to suit the majority of E/1s.   The 'metal' windscreen of the enclosed kit is unique to the second series Walthamstow E/1s, so best to scratch-build the windscreens to the LPTB wooden design.  

Once again, noted.

Quote

David Boyle made the same misreading of the Roche drawing as Frank Vescoe did with his first E/1 kit.   The best E/1 kit is BEC-Kits No.12 (white metal and has the best weight factor) available secondhand although a recent change in ownership is causing me to review what changes are needed to permit construction in the manner that I originally wanted way back in the 60s/70s as in the change a perfect E/3 upper deck has become available as carried by some E/1s.   The E/3s lower deck will have to be restructured to meet my standards before the whole E/3 kit can be considered for release.

I've yet to find one of the BEC kits for sale, and at any rate budgetary constraints are at play here. The Tower E/1 was about £10 in total, including motorising it and that was tolerable. Unfortunately that also meant a huge compromise with the mechanism, which is a Tenshodo 'spud' with dummy outer wheels, none of them being the right size. It will do for now, and I'm afraid I couldn't have afforded the proper bogies.

Quote

A series of books I do also recommend are Robert Harley's London tramways in the Middleton Press range.   Robert's other London tramways books are very good but OK if you can spare the expense on books!  

I probably can't but will keep an eye out!

Quote

  Even on "West Croydon" where the first and second generation trams shared where appropriate the same Croydon tracks, LPTB and LTE liveried cars were scheduled together on the same service.   Even open-top four wheeler 349 in LPTB livery returned from Bexleyheath to Thornton Heath to make up the number of cars available to work the 42s!  It was this mix of pre and post WW2 that appealed to the public at exhibitions.   Hope all this helps but to me I have always avoided modelling the war years.   Colin.

I suppose the best way for me to put this is that modelling the wartime railway was the foremost consideration and on a personal basis the trams have been a secondary one. I was never prepared to run completely generic trams on the layout (Someone originally suggested I use the Corgi ones!!!  Overscale for one thing, let alone accuracy), and want to have something reasonably accurate but they are nevertheless the secondary interest here. That's certainly not to say that I don't value the information being given, it's really helpful, but I am going to be making some compromises on the tramway front. Some of these will be quite simply down to budgetary constraints - I can only afford to devote a certain amount of the layout's funding to the trams. Two basic E/1s, plus a Stores Car would be plenty to begin with and if I cheat on the mechanisms I ought to be able to afford to do that. When funds allow, I would then look to get them on proper bogies but this will be after the layout's completion.

 

I don't wish to offend anyone here, and I really do appreciate the information and assistance offered, but although I am increasingly interested in London's trams, my primary interest remains with the railways.

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by sem34090

[coline33]

Don't worry about cheating with the mechs!!!   John Howe of Kingsway Models has always used four wheel mechs under his LT bogie cars!   He found that they could easy climb the ramp out of the Holborn end of his Kingsway Subway layout and has continued this with his latest layout - see his website for links to both his layouts.   His KS  ramp was too steep for my two mech bogie Feltham to climb which in reality they could!!!

 

Secondhand tram kits are available on the KW Trams website.   Agree about the Corgi diecasts but the OOC Felthams are 1:76th and the MET one is the best casting for correct detail.

 

Now I do have a unique ex-LCC E/1 for you in wartime livery that is, after the ex-Croydon E/1s, the next easiest car you can make from the open fronted Tower E/1 so please contact me direct.   Alas it did not survive the war.   Colin.

[sem34090]

17 minutes ago, coline33 said:

Don't worry about cheating with the mechs!!!   John Howe of Kingsway Models has always used four wheel mechs under his LT bogie cars!   He found that they could easy climb the ramp out of the Holborn end of his Kingsway Subway layout and has continued this with his latest layout - see his website for links to both his layouts.   His KS  ramp was too steep for my two mech bogie Feltham to climb which in reality they could!!!

I know a couple of people who've done it, and it doesn't notice too much from most angles so I'll leave it for the moment.

17 minutes ago, coline33 said:

Secondhand tram kits are available on the KW Trams website.   Agree about the Corgi diecasts but the OOC Felthams are 1:76th and the MET one is the best casting for correct detail.

I had thought about getting an OOC Feltham, but I don't think it overly likely that they'd appear.

17 minutes ago, coline33 said:

Now I do have a unique ex-LCC E/1 for you in wartime livery that is, after the ex-Croydon E/1s, the next easiest car you can make from the open fronted Tower E/1 so please contact me direct.   Alas it did not survive the war.   Colin.

Sounds interesting...

[wainwright1]

On 15/04/2020 at 20:09, sem34090 said:

A very good question!

Haha... Not intentionally. This current situation has thrown my body clock completely out of kilter.

Sorry!

 

Blimey... That's two people in this thread who lived locally! This is tremendously useful.

This is what I had gathered from old maps and Google...

Thanks for this - I found some photos taken of Barkworth Road prior to demolition in the 1980s and by the sounds of it they'll be very useful indeed! Any further photos would be greatly appreciated.

I think the best answer is to post the original, unaltered, (1950) map, an earlier (1897) map and my altered map alongside one another -

(1897)

(1950 - Note the gaps.)

The altered map. I haven't added additional houses, but the layout is set in 1940 so not all of the bombsites are there yet.

The joy of London stations...

Indeed, though I'm afraid I have to correct you - The Surrey canal is at the very bottom of my map, serving a wharf on the bottom siding and the tramway alignment is along Verney Road. This map might explain that better (I'll explain the map properly in due course).

The blue is the tramway - The canal is just below the sidings and the gasworks below that.

Charlie and Jim are good friends of mine, so I'm lucky enough to have full access to the kit range (hence my use of them on the layout!). The range is indeed being relaunched, with quite a few new 3D prints being developed as I write.

I wasn't aware of that! If I can find a map it might form a basis for my tramway...

Not my photograph I'm afraid, though I'd love to visit Crich someday.

Wonderful, thank you!

Indeed! Unfortunately I'm down on the coast.

Oh very nice!

Hopefully I can deliver.

I'm trying to think why your name rings a bell...

So much information, it is difficult to address so many points.

The Tramway.

I have copies of the  1871,1894, and 1914 Old Kent Road Ordnance Survey maps, Alan Godfrey editions.

The 1894 one shows parts of the horse tramway tracks in Southwark Park Road, Raymouth Road and Rotherhithe New Road. The 1914 does not show the tracks in Rotherhithe New Road. Presume that these were disused prior to the remainder of this system. I do not have the 1894 copy of the adjoining Deptford North map, but do have the 1914 one. This shows the tracks turning north east out of Raymouth Road, up to Rotherhithe, the Red Lion pub and the tracks joining the main tramway along Lower Road here. Don't forget that that the main tramway was also horse drawn at this time, not being electrified until the turn of the century. N.B. The line did not connect to the main lines at the southern end on the Old Kent Road at Canal Bridge.

So you could have an excuse for at least the section between Rotherhithe Red Lion and down to Rotherhithe New Road to Canal Bridge being retained and electrified and connected, although the gradient into Old Kent Road might make this difficult.

Your blue line for the tramway seems to cut through a lot of houses. It would more likely go up Rotherhithe New Road and then turn down Verney Road to access the depot.

You appear to have planted your depot over the west end of Varcoe Road. Interestingly on top of the sawing, planing and moulding mills, which I think are still standing and operating in some related form !

I will read your notes again and comment on the railway elements tomorrow.

All the best

Ray

 

Re your last point on my name, did you operate any of Charlie's layouts at exhibitions ? I might have seen you there.

 

 

 

[sem34090]

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

So much information, it is difficult to address so many points.

Sorry, I do tend to go on somewhat!

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

The Tramway.

I have copies of the  1871,1894, and 1914 Old Kent Road Ordnance Survey maps, Alan Godfrey editions.

The 1894 one shows parts of the horse tramway tracks in Southwark Park Road, Raymouth Road and Rotherhithe New Road. The 1914 does not show the tracks in Rotherhithe New Road. Presume that these were disused prior to the remainder of this system. I do not have the 1894 copy of the adjoining Deptford North map, but do have the 1914 one. This shows the tracks turning north east out of Raymouth Road, up to Rotherhithe, the Red Lion pub and the tracks joining the main tramway along Lower Road here. Don't forget that that the main tramway was also horse drawn at this time, not being electrified until the turn of the century. N.B. The line did not connect to the main lines at the southern end on the Old Kent Road at Canal Bridge.

So you could have an excuse for at least the section between Rotherhithe Red Lion and down to Rotherhithe New Road to Canal Bridge being retained and electrified and connected, although the gradient into Old Kent Road might make this difficult.

I refer you to this map for tramway matters - I think I got it right:

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Your blue line for the tramway seems to cut through a lot of houses.

That would be down to line thickness - I did stick to the roads!

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

It would more likely go up Rotherhithe New Road and then turn down Verney Road to access the depot.

I think that might be pretty much what the revised route on the map above shows.

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

You appear to have planted your depot over the west end of Varcoe Road. Interestingly on top of the sawing, planing and moulding mills, which I think are still standing and operating in some related form !

It seemed to work, though and there weren't that many options for siting it!

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

I will read your notes again and comment on the railway elements tomorrow.

All the best

Ray

Thank you!

17 minutes ago, wainwright1 said:

Re your last point on my name, did you operate any of Charlie's layouts at exhibitions ? I might have seen you there.

No, I haven't (yet) - I've probably just heard of you in passing!

[coline33]

Yes, Ray, you are quite right about why the RNR service 90 did not connect over at Canal Bridge.   So that is why I used the vacant land nearby for my proposed depot to give a reason for existence of this line after WW1.   Both services 88 and 90 ceased with the start of WW1, the horses being required for military service and the returns from the 'ha'penny bumper' did not warrant electrification.   The LCC kept the Grove Road horse line in East London going until its electrification and extension in 1924 because of its importance of getting the dockers to the India & Millwall Docks;  becoming service 77.   Alas for services 88 and 90 not enough dockers used them to get to Surrey Commercial Docks - probably it was more comfortable to walk!!!   Certainly services 68 and 70 were closer at hand to take them.   Colin. 

[wainwright1]

Hi Sem and Colin.

More tramways.

I have been having another look at the maps with regards to the horse trams.

I think that you may have traced it all out.

So looking at the western end of the line, the tracks went up Southwark Park Road then Grange Road, before turning left into Bermondsey New Road which was later to become Tower Bridge Road. They went along almost to what we call Bricklayers Arms road junction and terminated without connecting to the main lines at the junction of Old Kent Road/New Kent Road, similar to that at Canal Bridge.

Another leg branched off from Grange Road, ran up Spa Road, turned left up Thurland Road and once again connected to the main lines along Jamaica Road. On the 1914 Bermondsey and Wapping map, the leg up Spa Road/Thurland Road has disappeared and the line in Tower Bridge Road has been taken over and electrified and now forms part of the main line which continues up Tower Bridge Road, then turns left up Tooley Street  (or whatever it is at that point), then onward to its terminus at Duke Street Hill outside London Bridge Station. Interestingly, there was still a connection for the horse tramway to the electrified line at the junction between Grange Road and Tower Bridge Road. I wonder how that was used.

Point to note is that the horse tramway was virtually all single track apart from a fair number of passing places.

I do not think that there is a depot visible anywhere on the horse tramway system, so am not sure where they changed horses. (Colin will know). Perhaps they used the one off off Evelyn Street, Deptford, next to the railway bridge for the Deptford Wharf Branch. (Later Molins factory site). My club colleague Gary has just phoned me and he did his apprenticeship at Molins and said that the paint workshop there still had the tram tracks inside it, so probably occupied the old depot buildings ! Pity he never took any photos.

Anyway, here is a very nice picture of the Ha'penny Bumper at rest at its terminus at the southern end of St James Road/Rotherhithe New Road. The old Kent Road runs across in the background.

There is a very informative description of the tramway and this scene on the link below.

www.tramwayinfo.com/Tramframe.htm?https://www.tramwayinfo.com/trampostcards/Postc183.htm

I can relate to some of the properties in view.

The wall on the left was the side of a wood turners workshop which was still there until the 1970's possibly '80's. Further on is the side of buildings on the Old Kent Road which were a small parade of I think three or four shops at least one of which was still open in the late 1950's, before demolition, (Now occupied by Curry's/PC World). Then came the 'Canal Bridge.'

Most of the buildings on the Old Kent Road in the background were still there into the 1980's, (Perhaps a few gaps due to bombing), including at least one pub (Can't remember the name). The building on the right hand end of St James Road was also a pub, (Again I can't remember the name). This building remained until the 1980's, but after demolition the site still remains empty. The shops on the left were still there until the 1970's, I can remember the tobacconist/confectioners still being open, but in a progressively decrepit state, then demolished. This area is now part of the car park for a SELCO depot.

There are some other pictures in the Southwark Local Studies Library, mostly views in Southwark Park Road with the horse trams in action negotiating the street market which used to extend along both sides of the road in those days.

I hope that this is of interest. Now I must get on with some modelling.

All the best

 

Ray

[wainwright1]

P.S.

Back in the 1970's Jim Varney, Transport Replicas, did a white metal kit for an old single deck London horse tram.

Available in two versions, 'The People', one of the earliest to run in London and the other was with LCC markings.

This bore a good resemblance to the 'Ha'penny Bumper' and would make a nice little cameo. (Even better if you motorised it and made the horses legs move !!!).

The kit was later available from ABS kits, references R003 and R004. Unfortunately ABS now appears to have packed up as well due to Adrian Swain's ill health. However kits do turn up from time to time at exhibitions and bus rallies etc.

 

All the best

 

Ray

[coline33]

Best history of the horse tramways of south London will be found in Ted Oakley's "London County Council Tramways - part 1" and ought to be available in south London reference libraries if you did not want to purchase.   Part 2 gives the horse and steam companies in north London.   Naturally the electric and cable cars are fully covered up to 1933 in both books.

[wainwright1]

Hi Sim.

 

Now to look at the railway element of the plan

 

Before addressing specifics, I would make some observations about your objectives:

 

The layout is intended to fulfil the following requirements:

- It must be small enough to be built and operated at home.

- It must use a reasonable amount of stuff I already have, particularly stock.

- It must be interesting to operate, and also to watch at an exhibition.

- It must provide me with something fresh.

- It must be of at least equal standard to Odiham and I will aspire to Harford Street. 

 

The current plan measures 5ft long and I think about 15ins-18ins wide (Britain's been metric for 55 years, and yet I use imperial... go figure...). I intend for it to be split into two boards as one 5ft long board would be a nightmare! Initially it will be entirely self-contained but I intend adding a separate fiddle yard later, possibly.

 

 

The construction of a 5ft x 18inch baseboard should not be a problem if it has a 6mm plywood top which should keep it relatively light and manoeuvrable. It should also be able to fit in the back of an average estate car or an adaptable hatch back. Most of the baseboards we have built for our layouts are designed to be packed together face to face with packing boards that have hand holds to enable easy handling. Of course, to use the layout at home you must cut your cloth according to the space you have available. Looking at your plan it would appear that you will require two, possibly three fiddle yard areas to service the visible part of the layout.

I work in imperial as I can visualise what things will look like. This was particularly useful when I was the club exhibition manager (12 shows) and I could pace out approximate sizes for layouts and tables before resorting to a tape to produce the finely detailed floor plan on paper. Metres and centimetres are useless for this. Sheet materials such as plywood are also still sold in imperial 8ft x 4ft sheets.

 

To put the railway content into context. The original map already makes the area look like the railway mania has been working overtime and your additions make it even more of a tangle. I have been trying to work out what might make it logical.

 

The railway components are two separate elements - the yard and the through line.

The Yard.

Firstly, your sidings in the yard are fairly small and simple with not much operational potential particularly for an exhibition layout. These are served by links from two local lines. These links would need considerable infrastructure which would have required justification for their construction. So what is the purpose of your railway depot ? I cannot see why there would be a satellite yard linked to the larger yards at Bricklayers Arms so that could be taken off. Not sure about the connection to the South London Line as this would only take you to London Bridge Station which would not provide any goods traffic.

The  East London Line coming down from Surrey Docks is already on its way to Old Kent Road Junction , so that could be turned westwards after passing under the Croydon line and before reaching the canal lifting bridge, then running alongside the canal, then under the South London Line and/or your alternative line, thus reaching your destination on the level and causing a lot less disruption to the surrounding area.  Now what we need is a reason for a feed coming south through the Thames Tunnel to a small depot in south London.

The Through Line.

Here's another idea for the through line. Rather than the green line being a completely separate line why not bring it in along the bottom of the Bricklayers Arms depot as a continuation of that branch.  The Bricklayers Arms branch was originally planned to go much further towards London originally called the Grand West End Terminus falling well short of its intended destination. This passenger line would follow the line of Rolls Road, cross St James's Road and Rotherhithe New Road just ahead of Verney Way where the tramway would come in. You can then have your station and the line could continue on and join the South London Line and the Croydon line as per your plan, to provide alternative services to those from London Bridge.

 

Note: If you made the baseboard slightly wider, you could include the canal and model part of the gas works with its interesting narrow gauge system some of which appears to have been visible just across from your area of interest. This features in Industrial Railways of the South East by Middleton Press.

 

I hope that this might prove interesting.

 

All the best

 

Ray

 

 

 

 

[sem34090]

1 hour ago, wainwright1 said:

Hi Sim.

 

Now to look at the railway element of the plan

 

Before addressing specifics, I would make some observations about your objectives:

 

(...)

The construction of a 5ft x 18inch baseboard should not be a problem if it has a 6mm plywood top which should keep it relatively light and manoeuvrable. It should also be able to fit in the back of an average estate car or an adaptable hatch back. Most of the baseboards we have built for our layouts are designed to be packed together face to face with packing boards that have hand holds to enable easy handling. Of course, to use the layout at home you must cut your cloth according to the space you have available.

Sounds about right.

Quote

Looking at your plan it would appear that you will require two, possibly three fiddle yard areas to service the visible part of the layout.

Currently it is all to be self contained - There will be a backscene behind the housing on 'Canal Road' (Varcoe Road), enough to hide a 2-Car EMU. The fiddle yard for the yard will be a single track under the station area, or at least immediately behind it. Initially the station will be operate as a terminus, supposing 'bomb damage' to the East of the station. These would be temporary provisions until such a time as I can provide the space for separate fiddle yards.

Apologies that I haven't adjusted the scenery on the mockup yet.

Quote

I work in imperial as I can visualise what things will look like. This was particularly useful when I was the club exhibition manager (12 shows) and I could pace out approximate sizes for layouts and tables before resorting to a tape to produce the finely detailed floor plan on paper. Metres and centimetres are useless for this. Sheet materials such as plywood are also still sold in imperial 8ft x 4ft sheets.

Indeed!

Quote

To put the railway content into context. The original map already makes the area look like the railway mania has been working overtime and your additions make it even more of a tangle. I have been trying to work out what might make it logical.

Good luck!

Quote

The railway components are two separate elements - the yard and the through line.

The Yard.

Firstly, your sidings in the yard are fairly small and simple with not much operational potential particularly for an exhibition layout.

It's more than any of my previous layouts, and as and when would be expanded.

Quote

These are served by links from two local lines. These links would need considerable infrastructure which would have required justification for their construction.

I attempted, unsuccessfully, to clarify this - Only one link is assumed to be operative at any one time. This is a fudge. Most of the time it is assumed to be connected to the ELL and provides an excuse for me to indulge in some ex-GER locos. If I'm running ex-SECR locos then the assumption is a connection to Bricklayer's Arms, if running ex-LBSCR, MR or GNR then it is assumed to connect to the SLL and thus onwards to Snow Hill. A complete fudge, I admit.

Quote

So what is the purpose of your railway depot ? I cannot see why there would be a satellite yard linked to the larger yards at Bricklayers Arms so that could be taken off.

See above.

Quote

Not sure about the connection to the South London Line as this would only take you to London Bridge Station which would not provide any goods traffic.

I was somehow thinking of connections beyond, though I admit you're right. The connection will normally be assumed to be via the East London.

Quote

The  East London Line coming down from Surrey Docks is already on its way to Old Kent Road Junction , so that could be turned westwards after passing under the Croydon line and before reaching the canal lifting bridge, then running alongside the canal, then under the South London Line and/or your alternative line, thus reaching your destination on the level and causing a lot less disruption to the surrounding area. 

I shall attempt to redraw this appropriately at some point if you can provide a few further details (my knowledge of the area is gained purely from maps, so any local knowledge is going to be better than mine!).

Quote

Now what we need is a reason for a feed coming south through the Thames Tunnel to a small depot in south London.

There were numerous domestic coal depots South of the Thames, and the GER is known (I think) to have, at some point, run through to East Croydon. As and when I can extend the layout I would look to cross the canal and serve the gas works, or have the gasworks NG system crossing the canal (which would be cheaper, I imagine, than taking the standard gauge across).

Quote

The Through Line.

Here's another idea for the through line. Rather than the green line being a completely separate line why not bring it in along the bottom of the Bricklayers Arms depot as a continuation of that branch.  The Bricklayers Arms branch was originally planned to go much further towards London originally called the Grand West End Terminus falling well short of its intended destination. This passenger line would follow the line of Rolls Road, cross St James's Road and Rotherhithe New Road just ahead of Verney Way where the tramway would come in. You can then have your station and the line could continue on and join the South London Line and the Croydon line as per your plan, to provide alternative services to those from London Bridge.

That could work, though my thoughts for expansion centre around the canal.

Quote

Note: If you made the baseboard slightly wider, you could include the canal and model part of the gas works with its interesting narrow gauge system some of which appears to have been visible just across from your area of interest. This features in Industrial Railways of the South East by Middleton Press.

This is the eventual plan, and ever since coming across the location I've been after photos of the narrow gauge system!!!

Quote

I hope that this might prove interesting.

It does.

Quote

All the best

 

Ray

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by sem34090

[coline33]

Would anyone be interested in a 2-SL or 2-WIM EMU?   I loved travelling on the 2-WIMs and helping the Beddington Lane signalman on Saturday mornings with the gates and exchanging the staffs.   Years ago I started on a 2-WIM for "West Croydon" so to make a change to the Bachmann 2-EPB that I 'redressed' for the number 2.   At the time a 3D print producer offered to take my plans and do a kit but pressure of my time then just 'kicked it into the rough' for sometime in the future.   Colin.

[sem34090]

That'd be a nice addition to the fleet at some point...

[wainwright1]

Hi Sem and Colin.

 

Just been re-reading the foregoing notes.

 

A few further snippets of information:

The rear elevation of St Bartholomew's church was actually the parish rooms which seem to have been moved across the road on your plan. The church was very substantially built of red brick. The parish rooms a two storey building was IIRC built of yellow brick.

 

The correct name for the canal was the Grand Surrey Canal. It was not very grand, although when originally built the developers aims were for it to extend as far as Portsmouth. In effect it never got further than Camberwell Road with a branch off to Peckham, Canal Head most appropriately. It was a sailing barge canal with no locks, basically an extension of South Dock at Surrey Docks. There was also the Croydon Canal which branched off the Surrey Canal. This had a relatively short life following a fairly torturous route from New Cross up I think a ladder of thirty locks to the summit at Brockley. This was a tow path canal the barges of which had problems getting along the Surrey Canal to the junction as the latter had no tow path ! The London and Croydon Railway bought it and used the straight bits as part of its track bed down to West Croydon Station.

 

A couple of things related to the horse tramway might be off interest. If you have or can get a copy of the 1894 or 1914 Deptford North map which adjoins the Old Kent Road one, on the left hand top corner, coming up Rotherhithe New Road, right on the edge on the South London Line is the original South Bermondsey Station, opened 1866, closed 1917, and just a little bit further north is Southwark Park Station which dated for 1902 and closed in 1917, on the Greenwich line. (Just above Rotherhithe Road Carriage Depot). The horse tramway ran past both of these, so there was some interaction. South Bermondsey Station had at this time three tracks, but only two platforms on the outside tracks. The middle track was a fast reversible one used in the rush hour. This ran all the way through to Peckham Rye station. Intermediate Old Kent Road Station had only two platforms, but Queens Road Peckham and Peckham Rye both had three platforms. There are I think three nice H.C. Casserley photos taken off the platform at South Bermondsey and a couple taken off the platform of Southwark Park, but none taken at ground level of the outside of the stations. Some of the remains of South Bermondsey were there until not that long ago and I wrote an article about it for the London Railway Record. They were however demolished prior to the adjacent arches being refurbished. The ground level building at Southwark Park was fairly plain and still stands apart from the loss of a few architectural features.

Incidentally, there was a horse tram depot along side Queens Road Peckham Station in Station Passage. When I first moved to where I live now, you could see the remains of the horse tram tracks through the broken tarmac surface which included at least three passing places. These were subsequently torn up and scrapped when they resurfaced the road despite being offered and declined by Crich. A couple of years ago a few more lengths of rail appeared when the cleared the forecourt area in front of the station on the corner of Queens Road and Asylum Road. these would have formed the entrance to the depot. I think that I have seen a picture taken down Station Passage which showed these tracks without the tarmac, but I cannot remember where I saw it.

 

The railway development is this area was very complex and after allowing for the main lines running south from London Bridge Station you have to add the connecting lines from the East London Line and the Deptford Wharf Branch. These included the ELL connection to New Cross, the up ELL link on the west side of New Cross Gate and the down ELL link on the east side of New Cross Gate. There were also the connection coming off the South London Line at Old Kent Road Junction. This split three ways the left line to the ELL at Surrey Docks, the middle one to Deptford Wharf and the third one formed a loop back around eastwards to New Cross Gate and there were a lot of linking bits in between.

The Deptford Wharf Branch was an interesting one which we researched around thirty years ago as a possible layout project. Originally called the Thames Junction Railway, this was a goods only branch built by the Brighton to a railway owned wharf on the Thames incorporating the old established Dudman's or Deadman's Dock. This connected in to the lines to New Cross Gate and the South London Line and its route crossed the Grand Surrey Canal, first on a lifting bridge then further north at a higher level on an over bridge. The wharf was more or less divided into two halves with Grove Street forming the boundary. The inland half was a substantial yard and the river side half an equally large wharf complex including a very large covered dock area. There were two signal boxes, three level crossings and a massive foot bridge which spanned the lot. Also, which might be of particular interest, there was a line which came out of the east side of the yard and formed the Grove Street Tramway that ran down the middle of the road to the Corporation of London Foreign Cattle Market. Between the Wharf and the cattle market was the Royal Victualling Yard, later Royal Victoria Yard which had its own metre gauge system and in the cattle market was some standard gauge and it own 18 inch system. So there was plenty of scope for traffic between these different points and the main lines as well as the connections north of the river via the East London Line, over which you also had Underground services.

I sized up the prototype for a layout having an approximate 12 ft river frontage by about 8 ft inland depth up to the bridge and we produced a set of display panels showing a large number of photographs of the wharf branch, but we did not develop it as a layout as we found that all the the goods workings were loco worked up to the landward side of the yard, but were then shunted using capstans across Grove Street which although making a very nice diorama, would have been virtually impossible to operate. 

 

Unfortunately I do not have any photographs taken of the area where I used ti live, but would be interested in seeing your pictures of Barkworth Road.

 

I presume that your Blackstone West layout is of a fair size and is currently located in a clubroom somewhere. I do not know what your current space availability at home is, but baseboards built to a modular format from standard 4ft x 2ft plywood panels might suit your requirements. These can usually be purchased from suppliers (B & Q) ready cut to size so you just have to cut and assemble the frames from timber. Two of these would give you a good length and depth for a reasonable sized layout with a good opportunity for longer sidings and shunting potential. It would also be quite easy to store on its end if fitted with packing boards.

 

I hope that this some of this might stimulate some further thoughts. Open for comment.

 

All the best

 

Ray