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M 1704 is in LCC livery before it gave way to the full LCC red and cream that it was in when LPTB took over in July 1933.   The demolition of the Royal Hotel could have been under way with the car in this livery but by the time Unilever House was finished the lower deck waist corner panels on 1704 would have turned red.

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It could have been the hotel being demolished. That would make the date 1931.

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Blimey, I wasn't expecting a resurgence!

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3 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

Its possibly a steel framed building under construction it's certainly no airship. It is near Blackfriars Bridge the lights of which can be seen in the background and the distinctive passenger shelter is on the left. The tram tracks take a sharp right onto the bridge behind the tram. 

1926 aerial view on Britain From Above: https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW015771 , with the Royal Hotel,

1934 aerial view: https://britainfromabove.org.uk/en/image/EPW045388 , Unilever building complete. I cannot make out the exact position of the tram shelter in either view as it is too grainy.

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Posted (edited)

I can just make it out in the first picture. Its obscured by the line of trees. Use the landing stage marked 'Fire Brigade Pier' on the map I posted  as a reference point.

Edited by PhilJ W
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Some photos of Unilever house under construction, April and July 1931.

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/news-photo/unilever-house-under-construction-blackfriars-london-news-photo/3434654

https://www.alamy.com/unilever-house-blackfriars-in-course-of-construction-london-17-july-1931-image359629871.html

 

Other views 

https://alondoninheritance.com/the-thames/unilever-house-de-keysers-royal-hotel-and-the-drinking-fountain-association/

 

Given the state of Unilever house in April 1931, the demolition of de Keysers was probably autumn 1930? Would fit the suggested dates above.

 

It's amazing where perusing RMWeb will take you!

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Comparing the photos of Unilever House under construction and the photo of the tram it looks as if that is Unilever House under construction. Seeing as it is a foggy night I would suggest the photo was taken in the winter of 1931/32.

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Thank you, all.   This has been very helpful as I have had difficulty putting a date to the attached to prove that the trams are in the final LCC livery.

1240 - 1.jpg

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2 hours ago, coline33 said:

Thank you, all.   This has been very helpful as I have had difficulty putting a date to the attached to prove that the trams are in the final LCC livery.

1240 - 1.jpg

This pic is a bit later. The Ford Y on the extreme right was introduced in late 1933 and on the news vendors banner it looks as if it says 'War bonds' (third item down).

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21 hours ago, sem34090 said:

Blimey, I wasn't expecting a resurgence!

 

That will teach you.

 

Some interesting stuff coming up.

 

I worked in in an office just above the then Post Office in New Bridge Street,  on the road to the right for about a year and in Gough Square, just off Fleet Street for another four years in the 1970's. I have also been inside Unilever House. They had a rather nice staff bar I recall !

 

Keep it coming.

 

All the best

Ray

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, PhilJ W said:

This pic is a bit later. The Ford Y on the extreme right was introduced in late 1933 and on the news vendors banner it looks as if it says 'War bonds' (third item down).

 

Left hand flysheet says "Bandits take city banks mail bags" and the right one appears to say "Brighton gallops high wire in double..." (B&HA FC?)

 

Find the dates of those events, and you have the answer!!

 

 

Edited by Johann Marsbar
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Phil, are you sure that the Ford Y came out late 1933 as I find 1932 was when production commenced?   Certainly Unilever House was completed in 1933.   My problem is which side of 1st July 1933 my photo was taken?   I thought you had got me finally sorted on the LPTB side after I first thought it to be on the LCC side!!!   Colin.

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4 hours ago, coline33 said:

Phil, are you sure that the Ford Y came out late 1933 as I find 1932 was when production commenced?   Certainly Unilever House was completed in 1933.   My problem is which side of 1st July 1933 my photo was taken?   I thought you had got me finally sorted on the LPTB side after I first thought it to be on the LCC side!!!   Colin.

It was produced from late 1932 but not on sale until 1933. It depends as well how quickly the trams were repainted into London Transport colours. I read somewhere that some were not repainted until two years after London Transport took over and some were withdrawn without being repainted. Not as bad as British Railways who still had locomotives in pre nationalisation colours as late as 1955.

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Thanks, Phil.   Yes, we do have problems with photos in identifying London tramcar ownership from 1932 to 1934 where we either do not have the date of taking or are unable to see even a glimpse of the ownership 'legal lettering' on the bottom of the lower deck waist panels.  There is many a view published as being LCC, LUT, MET, SMET, etc. where clearly the LPTB legal lettering is pasted over that of the previous owner.   Both Brixton Hill and Hampstead depots had lines of trams waiting scrapping still with their old numbers and in the previous livery, some photographed without the LPTB ownership slip!   From July, 1933, as the future required Croydon trams went straightaway to Charlton for annual overhaul they emerged in the final LCC livery with their LPTB numbers in LCC numerals, as an example of speed.   So the source of the Blackfriars shelter photo needs further investigation on date of taking - if we will ever know!!!   

 

Before deciding on slightly differing red and cream to that of the LCC, LPTB did look at a complete colour change as a result of 'Bluebird' entry in 1932 in blue to be the forerunner of a first batch of 100 cars for Kingsway Subway services and the joint 16/18 service with Croydon.   E/3 192 was painted in a similar hue whilst E/1 583 appeared in a lighter blue.   By 1934 the new LPTB 'red' livery was being applied but the addition of the LT fleet-name was not applied until May of that year.   Need-less-to-say the 'old' paint stocks at Charlton were quickly used up on the ex-municipal cars but at Hendon the process was slower on the ex-Combine cars.   Colin. 

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Its a pity that the registration of the Ford car isn't visible. I have a Glass's registration guide that is useful in dating some photographs. All I can add about the car is that its almost certainly one of the early 'short radiator' models, identified by the straight front bumper despite that feature being obscured by the policeman. The later models had a longer radiator and the bumper curved down to match which resulted in the number plate being moved from its central position to above the bumper on the offside.

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Phil, the photo I find was recorded as being taken in 1933 but no day or month.   Oh, that 'copper' in the way still leaves us on the 'knife edge'!!!   Colin.

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The car is a very early model Y. I've checked a book on the small Fords and apparently the very early ones did not have gutters and the one in the pic doesn't appear to have any. Gutters were fitted from April-May 1933. I know this doesn't help much in precisely dating the photograph, the best bet would be the newspaper headlines.

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8 hours ago, PhilJ W said:

The car is a very early model Y. I've checked a book on the small Fords and apparently the very early ones did not have gutters and the one in the pic doesn't appear to have any. Gutters were fitted from April-May 1933. I know this doesn't help much in precisely dating the photograph, the best bet would be the newspaper headlines.

 

Well, if the Brighton reference is football related, they drew 2-2 with West Ham in the 6th round of the FA Cup on 18th February 1933....

https://www.11v11.com/teams/brighton-and-hove-albion/tab/matches/season/1933/

assuming that could be the "double" referred to.

They lost the replay the following week though....

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Posted (edited)

A bit of hunting around Google suggests that there was a mail bag robbery on the 2nd August 1933.

 

The Brighton reference could also be horse racing as it mentions gallops.

 

Edit - there appears to have been a fairly major meeting at Brighton racecourse on the 2nd, so that would fit...

Edited by Nick C
More research
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Many thanks, Johann and Nick for completing the investigation.   That is decisive for me as I had either a horse named Brighton or horse racing at Brighton to follow up.   If only my grandfather had not passed away before I was born he could have told me!!!   He took a Workman's Return on the 16/18 using this stop as he was a night shift engineering manager on the Fleet Street printing machines that he had built when employed by Monotype at Salfords, Redhill.   He took the Fleet Street job and moved to a brand new house in Thornton Heath just as the LCC and Croydon opened the joint tram service in 1926.   He bought his WR ticket at Blackfriars when returning home early morning so he could use it in the early evening of that day when he went to work!

 

KW Trams has just released, through the website, mech MEMT16 to power 4' wheel-base maximum-traction trucks such as Brill 22E used on the early classes and types of LCC. LUT and MET cars.

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I've loved reading this - Amazing how the date ended up being pinned so decisively!

 

And sort of shows up those who originally dated it without researching it.

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They hadn’t got the magic of the internet thingy, though, Sem. Back to portering soon?

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Already done a half day's portering on the 20th. ;)

 

We reopen publicly on July 11th.

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I have been sent this view of the Unilever Building showing how it would have looked from Blackfriars Bridge if trolleybuses had replaced the trams after WW2.

unilever building in trolleybus days.jpg

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