Salmon Wagon updates

[Dungrange]

47 minutes ago, cctransuk said:

If I had to guess at an outcome, perhaps Flangeway will flog the lot - returns included - to a box-shifter, who will sell them to the undiscerning at Railroad prices. (The trouble is, a bogie flat wagon is not the first thing that appeals to the trainset brigade)!

 

That would incur a very significant loss for Flangeway, but I can't see any other way to shift them.

 

You may be right, but I think when these first came into stock, there was at least 400 of each of the nine livery variants being sold.  That therefore suggests a production run of perhaps 4,000 units (~444 in each livery).

 

However, looking at the stock levels on footplate.co.uk just now, reveals that they only have a total of 279 wagons left (between 19 and 40 of each variant).  That would therefore imply that they have maybe already sold over 90% of the production run at £50 per wagon.  The question is therefore how many wagons will be returned to them?  Some purchasers will send them back, but perhaps there are still a significant number of new owners who are blissfully unaware of the size discrepancy, who will therefore keep their models.   There are many modellers who don't read RMweb or even magazine reviews.

 

Unfortunately, Flangeway will have been looking to recover the tooling costs over several production runs (by for example offering further livery variations and different bogies), so whilst there is a chance that they can shift all of this production run without dumping them on a 'box shifter', I'd assume that the demand for further production runs has probably largely evaporated.

[rembrow]

There has been a recent similar mistake in dimensions of a model. Oxford advertised a 60ft Carflat wagon, based on the ex Stanier 60ft coach underframe. Unfortunately the model came out at a scale 57ft. Luckily, in that case, BR did produce carflats on Stanier 57ft coach underframes. The model is still marketed as  60ft Carflat by some retailers!

Edited January 27, 2021 by rembrow

[Foden]

6 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I can see the number of returns actually being quite small as people unaware of the issue just don't notice. Hornby shorty Mk3s sold by the bucket load.

Roy

 

The shorty Mk3s also came in trainsets, and were perhaps a little more common amongst the casual loop of track on the carpet hobbyists than an engineers flat wagon would be.

 

I suspect most people after these know exactly what they are, and what they're after, and they're going to care that they aren't close to scale size once they realise.

[Dungrange]

12 minutes ago, Foden said:

The shorty Mk3s also came in trainsets, and were perhaps a little more common amongst the casual loop of track on the carpet hobbyists than an engineers flat wagon would be.

 

I suspect most people after these know exactly what they are, and what they're after, and they're going to care that they aren't close to scale size once they realise.

 

I think that is correct.  However, it depends on how buyers respond.  Some will decide to send them back, but others may just be disappointed, but keep them anyway.  The question is what proportion of buyers will send them back and what proportion will keep them? 

 

A question, what happens if a buyer has already weathered these and run them round their layout for a month or so before they become aware that they are too short?  Can they return them for a refund?  I think the answer to that is no.  They can return them under distance selling regulations within a short period of time (14 days?) but once they've weathered or otherwise modified them, I think they would be deemed to have accepted the wagons.  The question is therefore how long will it take people to realise that there is a problem?

Edited January 27, 2021 by Dungrange

[Dan Griffin]

1 hour ago, Roy Langridge said:

 

I can see the number of returns actually being quite small as people unaware of the issue just don't notice. Hornby shorty Mk3s sold by the bucket load.

Roy

They did but only because there was no alternative at the time. The Cambrian kit alternative is a very decent wagon. I’ve just finished a rake of five. 
 

this wagon is massively flawed, there’s no getting away from this. £50 for a flawed wagon is astonishing. The lead time for a corrected version could be years, as the current tooling will be useless. 

[rob D2]

I disagree that people won’t notice , people buying this aren’t little Johnny and dad who happened across the Hornby outlet and thought they’d add a Coca Cola truck to their roundy.

 

these are specialist wagons, available from a specialist supplier and of course ...they are £50...each.

 

It will all come down to who’s cock up it is, and who’s liable. I can see the whole  lot going back to China .

[freightliner_bond_57007]

On 26/01/2021 at 08:54, AY Mod said:

 

I know they're aware and investigating, please let them get on with that for now.

 

Any idea when we are likely to receive further information?
 

At the moment I haven’t started the process of returning these but I know others have and obviously there is a time limit set out in the distant selling regulations. 
 

Many thanks

Alan

[cctransuk]

2 hours ago, Dungrange said:

 

You may be right, but I think when these first came into stock, there was at least 400 of each of the nine livery variants being sold.  That therefore suggests a production run of perhaps 4,000 units (~444 in each livery).

 

However, looking at the stock levels on footplate.co.uk just now, reveals that they only have a total of 279 wagons left (between 19 and 40 of each variant).  That would therefore imply that they have maybe already sold over 90% of the production run at £50 per wagon.  The question is therefore how many wagons will be returned to them?  Some purchasers will send them back, but perhaps there are still a significant number of new owners who are blissfully unaware of the size discrepancy, who will therefore keep their models.   There are many modellers who don't read RMweb or even magazine reviews.

 

Unfortunately, Flangeway will have been looking to recover the tooling costs over several production runs (by for example offering further livery variations and different bogies), so whilst there is a chance that they can shift all of this production run without dumping them on a 'box shifter', I'd assume that the demand for further production runs has probably largely evaporated.

 

A flaw in that argument - those who are "blissfully unaware of the size discrepancy, who will therefore keep their models" are surely a potential "demand for further production runs"?

 

John Isherwood.

[pheaton]

53 minutes ago, rob D2 said:

I disagree that people won’t notice , people buying this aren’t little Johnny and dad who happened across the Hornby outlet and thought they’d add a Coca Cola truck to their roundy.

 

these are specialist wagons, available from a specialist supplier and of course ...they are £50...each.

 

It will all come down to who’s cock up it is, and who’s liable. I can see the whole  lot going back to China .

TBF its not like they are a coach missing windows...so its not immediately obvious...indeed on page 2 of this thread there are 2 modellers singing their praises. I do wonder how long it would have been before it was noticed had someone not raised it here.....

 

why would they go back to china? short of the factory doing something nefarious....or there being 2 separate tooling for the engineering sample and the production.....someone has authorised its production, someone signed it off...and given that the seller have been giving regular updates even this month it would appear that it was signed off and it was authorised....

 

Advice...distance selling regs give you 14 days from the receipt of the parcel unless in the T&Cs they have increased it, so if your humming and ahhhing....dont....act now...keep it or send it back!

 

(edit part of which? showed 7 days not 14)

 

Edited January 27, 2021 by pheaton

[rob D2]

3 minutes ago, pheaton said:

TBF its not like they are a coach missing windows...so its not immediately obvious...indeed on page 2 of this thread there are 2 modellers singing their praises. I do wonder how long it would have been before it was noticed had someone not raised it here.....

 

why would they go back to china? short of the factory doing something nefarious....or there being 2 separate tooling for the engineering sample and the production.....someone has authorised its production, someone signed it off...and given that they have been giving regular updates this months it would appear that it was signed off and it was authorised....

 

Advice...distance selling regs give you 7 days from the receipt of the parcel...so if your humming and ahhhing....dont....act now...keep it or send it back!

 

 

I’d imagine the first review in a mag. TBh I don’t buy anything new these days without looking here or seeing a review 

[Roy Langridge]

4 minutes ago, pheaton said:

Advice...distance selling regs give you 7 days from the receipt of the parcel...so if your humming and ahhhing....dont....act now...keep it or send it back!

 

 

Isn’t it 14 days from receipt to notify the seller?

 

Roy

[pheaton]

21 minutes ago, Roy Langridge said:

Isn’t it 14 days from receipt to notify the seller?

 

Roy

correct my original post shows OOD info on the which website

Edited January 27, 2021 by pheaton

[AY Mod]

20 minutes ago, freightliner_bond_57007 said:

Any idea when we are likely to receive further information?

 

No idea, it's their call.

[Dungrange]

Interesting, but the Government website states 

 

You must tell the customer they can cancel their order up to 14 days after their order is delivered. They don’t need to give a reason for cancelling.

 

If you don’t tell the customer about their right to cancel, they can cancel at any time in the next 12 months. If you tell them about the right to cancel during these 12 months, they have 14 days to cancel from when you told them.

 

https://www.gov.uk/online-and-distance-selling-for-businesses

 

However, I agree that if you want to return them, you need to do so promptly.

[Foden]

3 minutes ago, pheaton said:

TBF its not like they are a coach missing windows...so its not immediately obvious...indeed on page 2 of this thread there are 2 modellers singing their praises. I do wonder how long it would have been before it was noticed had someone not raised it here.....

Speaking personally, and frankly, probably a good while.

 

They were always going to be a purchase for the future for me, I wouldn’t have noticed until I went to model an example with a scale length track panel, then the penny would drop.

 

I sang its praises because it was a good model, it still is, which is even more disappointing in a way.

 

3 minutes ago, pheaton said:

Advice...distance selling regs give you 7 days from the receipt of the parcel...so if your humming and ahhhing....dont....act now...keep it or send it back!

 

 

Well being already over that I guess I’m stuck with taking a chance then by waiting and seeing what they say. I’ve no animosity towards them, it’s clearly an error, I would hope they would have the decency to offer some kind of amendment once they know where they are at with it.

[spamcan61]

2 minutes ago, Dungrange said:

Interesting, but the Government website states 

 

 

The Distance Selling Regulations were replaced by The Consumer Contracts Regulations in 2013 so the Which? advice is well out of date.

[pheaton]

The Which advice is the consumer contracts regulations of 2014....but it incorrectly states 7 days so @Roy Langridge and @Dungrange are correct...

 

https://www.netlawman.co.uk/ia/ccicac-cancellation-rights

 

that is a legal representative site

 

and interestingly

 

another part of the witch? site confirms it

 

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations

 

I will amended my post

Edited January 27, 2021 by pheaton

[LaGrange]

Love how everyone is blaming the factory, when its actually the design thats wrong. An old computer programming term applies here - RiRo - 'Rubbish In, Rubbish Out'. Somebody got the sums wrong and they were not checked...

[Roy Langridge]

12 minutes ago, LaGrange said:

Love how everyone is blaming the factory, when its actually the design thats wrong. An old computer programming term applies here - RiRo - 'Rubbish In, Rubbish Out'. Somebody got the sums wrong and they were not checked...

 

You don't know that. A CNC mill I used had a scaling factor so you could upload a correct design and have it milled at any percentage of that (within the limits of the machine).

Roy

[jonhall]

1 minute ago, LaGrange said:

Love how everyone is blaming the factory, when its actually the design thats wrong. An old computer programming term applies here - RiRo - 'Rubbish In, Rubbish Out'. Somebody got the sums wrong and they were not checked...

 

Yes of course, what I mean by 'the manufacturer' is a generalisation of the 'CAD-Toolmaking-moulding-assembly-decoration-packing' 'provider'.

 

I don't believe that Footplate did the CAD themselves, and I have assumed they have 'bought' the whole production process from the same 'provider' (who may have sub-contracted out any of the steps above). The 'provider' has (probably) made the first mistake, but Footplate has (probably)  made the second mistake of not checking the CAD (or the EP) before committing to buy the output from the factory.

 

If the CAD was done by an intermediary then it gets a whole lot more complicated contractually, but if the CAD was done in China that's not going to help Footplate get recompense.

 

I suspect the provider's position will be 'that's why we sent you the CAD and EP to approve - you approved it and we just made what we committed to do', leaving Footplate without any come back.  

 

Jon

[Wayne 37901]

I've just caught up with this thread.

 

It's such a shame to see that the Salmon is short on length, and by quite a bit as well. I wonder why the dimensions weren't checked at the EP stage before bulk manufacturing started.

 

Having built quite a few Cambrian ones over the years I don't really need any more Salmons, but I would have been tempted if they did a crane fitted variant.

 

It'll be interesting to hear what Flangeway say, but I'm glad the wallet can relax for now.

 

Cheers.

[Phil Bullock]

Postie delivered 7 for me yesterday. We shall be running them as a prototypical train including a Toad, PWM and mess coach .... just lacking a crane at the moment.

 

Looking at Paul Bartletts photos a 60 ft track panel has 24 sleepers. Given that Peco sleeper spacing is too close I would not be surprised if a panel cut to length for these wagons has 24 sleepers ... will check it out at the weekend. In which case I shall rest content....

[rob D2]

47 minutes ago, Phil Bullock said:

Postie delivered 7 for me yesterday. We shall be running them as a prototypical train including a Toad, PWM and mess coach .... just lacking a crane at the moment.

 

Looking at Paul Bartletts photos a 60 ft track panel has 24 sleepers. Given that Peco sleeper spacing is too close I would not be surprised if a panel cut to length for these wagons has 24 sleepers ... will check it out at the weekend. In which case I shall rest content....

I like your style Phil. HO track fits what appear to be HO wagons....

 

” Adapt to survive “ !

[Enterprisingwestern]

1 hour ago, Phil Bullock said:

Postie delivered 7 for me yesterday. We shall be running them as a prototypical train including a Toad, PWM and mess coach .... just lacking a crane at the moment.

 

Looking at Paul Bartletts photos a 60 ft track panel has 24 sleepers. Given that Peco sleeper spacing is too close I would not be surprised if a panel cut to length for these wagons has 24 sleepers ... will check it out at the weekend. In which case I shall rest content....

 

Sheesh, you narrow gauge modellers!

I suppose there will be a commensurate reduction in the dimensions of the millionaires shortbread?!!!

 

Mike.

[lyneux]

2 hours ago, Phil Bullock said:

Looking at Paul Bartletts photos a 60 ft track panel has 24 sleepers

It depends on all kinds of things but largely era, track type, whether it’s a mainline etc. The Flat bottomed panels at Whatley quarry have 26 per 60ft. Modern CWR can be up to 30 from what I’ve read.

 

Sizing the Salmon to a panel of Peco track would be a terrible way to scale a model! So I assume you mean it’s a fortunate side effect (for you) Phil rather than deliberate?

 

Guy