East Midlands freight operations in the late 80's

[Ted-ish]

Hi folks, I really need your advice and guidance.

 

I'm trying to plan my layout around real locations, with inspiration from Duncan's "Shirebrook" layout on here, I'll be incorporating my own version.

 

That area has heavy coal traffic, that's a given.

 

However, what else might there be, where does it come from and go etc?

 

My research has turned up these industries:
 

• Ketton Cement Works at one end of the layout - IN coal / OUT cement
• A power station off scene (I'm thinking of having a helix or two) - IN coal / OUT empties
• Oxcroft Coal Disposal Point - IN coal / OUT crushed coal
• Shirebrook itself has a TMD and a station - IN fuel / OUT empties
• Ideas to verify:
  • Heavy oil (fuel) for the above TMD and other areas - there was a tank at Oxcroft, I assume for refueling
  • Soda Ash for a glassworks perhaps - would this be appropriate for the area (East Midlands)?
  • But where does the Soda Ash come from? Coal + limestone, from what location/plant?

 

In short, I want to add many reasons for the layout to exist. Supply and demand, like the prototype. So I can run sessions to a 'WTT' and actually move, shunt and ship wares to customers.

 

Locomotives aka fill in the blanks for what I have, I might have bought the wrong locos:

 

• I have 3 class 58's for Coal MGR - were these only from mine to power station?
• I've seen Class 20's moving empties, but the above goods too? I don't own any of these yet.
• Class BR 25, 2x Rf 26, 31 and 2x 33s - the 33's if not appropriate here can run engineer duties (they're dutch livery)
• Class 37's - 1 dutch, 1 Rf
• Class 47's - 1 Rf, 1 BR blue
• Class 56 rf
• Class 56 DRS - this needs to go, it's too modern
• Class 60 rf
• Class 08's - pretty simple, yard work and shunting... at least that's one I can get right!

 

I know I'm asking a lot here, so thank you in advance if you provide information!

 

[Fat Controller]

Oxcroft probably wouldn't have incoming coal; a 'Disposal Point' is simply a loading point for opencast coal.

I doubt there'd be fuelling facilities there.  Loco diesel isn't heavy fuel oil; it is quite often carried in light-coloured tanks.

The power station traffic could also include heavy fuel oil(black tanks) in, and fly-ash out to cement works or landfill. You could also imagine a concrete block factory at the power station, which might send product out by rail.

The Knottingly/ Worksop area had/has several glassworks; they'd have sand from King's Lynn, or possibly Oakamoor, which might be in hoppers or open wagons. Soda ash would come from Cheshire, lime from the Peak District.

An important source of traffic around Shirebrook is W H Davis's wagon works:-

http://www.whdavis.co.uk/index.php/products/ In recent times, they've done a build of nuclear flask wagonsa, nother of container flats, as well as cutting and shutting redundant coal hoppers.

[Ted-ish]

1 hour ago, Fat Controller said:

Oxcroft probably wouldn't have incoming coal; a 'Disposal Point' is simply a loading point for opencast coal.

I doubt there'd be fuelling facilities there.  Loco diesel isn't heavy fuel oil; it is quite often carried in light-coloured tanks.

The power station traffic could also include heavy fuel oil(black tanks) in, and fly-ash out to cement works or landfill. You could also imagine a concrete block factory at the power station, which might send product out by rail.

The Knottingly/ Worksop area had/has several glassworks; they'd have sand from King's Lynn, or possibly Oakamoor, which might be in hoppers or open wagons. Soda ash would come from Cheshire, lime from the Peak District.

An important source of traffic around Shirebrook is W H Davis's wagon works:-

http://www.whdavis.co.uk/index.php/products/ In recent times, they've done a build of nuclear flask wagonsa, nother of container flats, as well as cutting and shutting redundant coal hoppers.

 

Thanks for the info.

 

So a disposal point would send out processed coal from the opencast only. Noted.

 

Here's a picture of the fuel/oil container (back of shot):

 

 

What might that be?

 

Thanks for the other notes, very helpful!

 

 

[Peter Kazmierczak]

Limestone from Wirksworth to East Anglia during the sugar beet season. Oil distribution depot - often just a siding or two - used to be one in Long Eton; another in Derby. Aviation fuel for the aero-engine test beds at Rolls-Royce on the Sinfin branch. Acetic acid and other chemicals from the Cortaulds factory at Spondon. Cement distribution depots - used to be one at Sandiacre plus other locations. Scrap metal - Beeston, Leicester to name but two.  Freightliner terminal at Beeston too.

[Fat Controller]

2 hours ago, Ted-ish said:

 

Thanks for the info.

 

So a disposal point would send out processed coal from the opencast only. Noted.

 

Here's a picture of the fuel/oil container (back of shot):

 

 

What might that be?

 

Thanks for the other notes, very helpful!

 

 

The fuel tank is probably for the various items of plant, including any industrial shunters. A storage tank this size would be supplied by road.

I don't know why the term 'disposal point' was used; the sites were fed by local opencast sites, and in some areas by the small private mines that weren't big enough for the NCB to be interested. They were generally run by the big civil engineering firms such as Wimpey's and Taylor-Woodrow or by firms like Powell Duffryn.

[NorthEndCab]

I have a vague recollection of there being an oil terminal somewhere near Ironville on the Erewash, possibly Doe Hill?

Also somewhere that was something to do with explosives for quarries/collieries in the same general area.  

Edited April 15, 2020 by NorthEndCab

[Edwin_m]

The ironworks at Stanton sent out pipe until fairly recently.  Not sure if it had any inward flows (ore or semi-processed steel?).  

 

There was a small and quite modellable cement terminal in the old goods yard at Beeston. Also MOD traffic to and from Attenborough, although this had probably finished before your period as there was certainly nothing when I moved to the area in 1987.  By then the Freightliner terminal had become a BR engineer's depot and the oil terminal near Breaston had disappeared.  The scrapyard across the line from Freightliner was still active.  

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, NorthEndCab said:

I have a vague recollection of there being an oil terminal somewhere near Ironville on the Erewash, possibly Doe Hill?

Also somewhere that was something to do with explosives for quarries/collieries in the same general area.  

 Metal Box had a plant at Kirkby-in-Ashfield, which recieved tinplate in VCAs, and then SPAs.

There were oil terminals at Doe Hill and Warsop (BP).

Mansfield Sand had a quarry at Berry Hill.

Stanton and Staveley ironworks, now part of St-Gobain, I believe, has despatched large-diameter cast-iron pipes by rail for export relatively recently. The loads were carried in a mix of BDA and SPA wagons. I'm not aware of any recent inbound traffic; if there were, I would expect pig-iron and scrap, as the blast furnaces have been shut for quite a long time. There had been chemical traffic from part of the site, using by-products from the coking ovens.

 

[Rivercider]

15 hours ago, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Limestone from Wirksworth to East Anglia during the sugar beet season. Oil distribution depot - often just a siding or two - used to be one in Long Eton; another in Derby. Aviation fuel for the aero-engine test beds at Rolls-Royce on the Sinfin branch. Acetic acid and other chemicals from the Cortaulds factory at Spondon. Cement distribution depots - used to be one at Sandiacre plus other locations. Scrap metal - Beeston, Leicester to name but two.  Freightliner terminal at Beeston too.

Here is the oil terminal at Derby, rail wise it appears pretty basic.

Collision and derailment 25/3/82.

 

cheers

 

[montyburns56]

9 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Here is the oil terminal at Derby, rail wise it appears pretty basic.

Collision and derailment 25/3/82.

 

cheers

 

 

"Those troublesome trucks were saying haa haa as they passed the clumsy oil tankers"

Edited April 15, 2020 by montyburns56

[Edwin_m]

Looks to me as if the snooty GUVs were at fault, or rather the smelly diesel that pushed them into the tankers.  

[Ted-ish]

On 14/04/2020 at 19:37, Peter Kazmierczak said:

Limestone from Wirksworth to East Anglia during the sugar beet season. Oil distribution depot - often just a siding or two - used to be one in Long Eton; another in Derby. Aviation fuel for the aero-engine test beds at Rolls-Royce on the Sinfin branch. Acetic acid and other chemicals from the Cortaulds factory at Spondon. Cement distribution depots - used to be one at Sandiacre plus other locations. Scrap metal - Beeston, Leicester to name but two.  Freightliner terminal at Beeston too.

 

Aviation fuel to Rolls is a good one! Thanks for the info, I didn't know about those other locations.

[Ted-ish]

On 15/04/2020 at 06:56, NorthEndCab said:

I have a vague recollection of there being an oil terminal somewhere near Ironville on the Erewash, possibly Doe Hill?

Also somewhere that was something to do with explosives for quarries/collieries in the same general area.  

 

Explosives added to my list to research!

 

On 15/04/2020 at 08:54, Edwin_m said:

The ironworks at Stanton sent out pipe until fairly recently.  Not sure if it had any inward flows (ore or semi-processed steel?).  

 

There was a small and quite modellable cement terminal in the old goods yard at Beeston. Also MOD traffic to and from Attenborough, although this had probably finished before your period as there was certainly nothing when I moved to the area in 1987.  By then the Freightliner terminal had become a BR engineer's depot and the oil terminal near Breaston had disappeared.  The scrapyard across the line from Freightliner was still active.  

 

Loads to research here, really helpful.

 

23 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

 Metal Box had a plant at Kirkby-in-Ashfield, which recieved tinplate in VCAs, and then SPAs.

There were oil terminals at Doe Hill and Warsop (BP).

Mansfield Sand had a quarry at Berry Hill.

Stanton and Staveley ironworks, now part of St-Gobain, I believe, has despatched large-diameter cast-iron pipes by rail for export relatively recently. The loads were carried in a mix of BDA and SPA wagons. I'm not aware of any recent inbound traffic; if there were, I would expect pig-iron and scrap, as the blast furnaces have been shut for quite a long time. There had been chemical traffic from part of the site, using by-products from the coking ovens.

 

 

Thanks for the clarification.

 

23 hours ago, Rivercider said:

Here is the oil terminal at Derby, rail wise it appears pretty basic.

 

 

Collision and derailment 25/3/82.

 

cheers

 

 

Thanks - I'll dig around for more images to get an idea of the track layout.

[lather]

The explosives were from Explosives & Chemical Products at Alfreton. They had a rail connection just north of Alfreton station which went out of use in the mid-1980s, but was still in existence in the 1990s. If you look on Google Maps and other similar sites, you can still see all of the storage bunkers on the satellite photos.

 

Our phone number used to be the same as the main E&CP sales line, but with a different dialling code, and one of their main quarrying customers was in the same area as us. Several times a year, someone from the quarry would ring up to order some new supplies, but forget to dial the STD code. It was always quite amusing to get someone calling us wanting to order a few boxes of dynamite!

[Edwin_m]

3 hours ago, lather said:

The explosives were from Explosives & Chemical Products at Alfreton. They had a rail connection just north of Alfreton station which went out of use in the mid-1980s, but was still in existence in the 1990s. If you look on Google Maps and other similar sites, you can still see all of the storage bunkers on the satellite photos.

They are also visible from the train on the way to and from Chesterfield.  

[Catkins]

Another couple of flows would be (malted) grain from East Anglia to Scotland, for whiskey, and continental freight through the Harwich train Ferry, although these flows could be conveyed on a speedlink service.

 

Edit;- There was some vanload traffic from the Campbells factory in King's Lynn, again via speedlink, and there was Trainload freight conveying tin cans and pet foods from Metal Box, and the petfood factory (now Nestle Purina) from Wisbech to Trafford Park.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Catkins
to add an additional couple of traffic sources.

[DavidBird]

On 14/04/2020 at 19:37, Peter Kazmierczak said:

... Aviation fuel for the aero-engine test beds at Rolls-Royce on the Sinfin branch.

...

 

Was there ever any rail aviation fuel to RR at Hucknall? If so, where was it unloaded?

[lather]

2 hours ago, DavidBird said:

 

Was there ever any rail aviation fuel to RR at Hucknall? If so, where was it unloaded?

 

I've never heard of any rail deliveries there, and there's not really a convenient terminal. But a lot of airfields are linked into the GPSS pipeline network and get fuel that way. Then again, given the limited activity at Hucknall, road tankers direct from the refinery would probably be enough.

[BR Blue]

On 14/04/2020 at 17:02, Ted-ish said:

 

 

Locomotives aka fill in the blanks for what I have, I might have bought the wrong locos:

 

• I have 3 class 58's for Coal MGR - were these only from mine to power station?
• I've seen Class 20's moving empties, but the above goods too? I don't own any of these yet.
• Class BR 25, 2x Rf 26, 31 and 2x 33s - the 33's if not appropriate here can run engineer duties (they're dutch livery)
• Class 37's - 1 dutch, 1 Rf
• Class 47's - 1 Rf, 1 BR blue
• Class 56 rf
• Class 56 DRS - this needs to go, it's too modern
• Class 60 rf
• Class 08's - pretty simple, yard work and shunting... at least that's one I can get right!

 

 

 

Just a quick note on your locomotives.

The class 26 was pretty much Scotland only in the 1980s. They did come south but not usually that far. The 33s were a southern loco but did wander - South Wales, Crewe and even North Wales but I do not think they would be seen in the East Midlands in your timeframe.

Also the class 25s would have been disappearing when the 58s arrived and were gone by the time the 60s came on the scene (1989).

Dutch livery on 37s would have appeared in 1990. 

DRS 56 is as you say too modern. I am not familiar with the DRS 56 but if it does not have the modified cantrail grilles it could be back dated with a respray.

 

Hopefully this helps.

 

Eamon

 

 

 

[Ted-ish]

5 hours ago, BR Blue said:

 

Just a quick note on your locomotives.

The class 26 was pretty much Scotland only in the 1980s. They did come south but not usually that far. The 33s were a southern loco but did wander - South Wales, Crewe and even North Wales but I do not think they would be seen in the East Midlands in your timeframe.

Also the class 25s would have been disappearing when the 58s arrived and were gone by the time the 60s came on the scene (1989).

Dutch livery on 37s would have appeared in 1990. 

DRS 56 is as you say too modern. I am not familiar with the DRS 56 but if it does not have the modified cantrail grilles it could be back dated with a respray.

 

Hopefully this helps.

 

Eamon

 

Thanks Eamon.

 

Yes I knew the 26's were Scottish based, both have the little Scotty dog emblem. I really like the models though, so I might just bend the rules for those. Otherwise, they'll go up for sale!

 

I'm aiming for a time period, not specific year as it gives me some flexibility.  So I'm happy for it to be 85-90 for example, which allows me to run a bit more locos in the area including the class 37 in Dutch, which is perhaps my favourite looking loco (also sounds brilliant)!

My mistake on the 56, it was actually a 57 - "Pride of Crewe":

 

[lather]

5 hours ago, BR Blue said:

 

Just a quick note on your locomotives.

The class 26 was pretty much Scotland only in the 1980s. They did come south but not usually that far. The 33s were a southern loco but did wander - South Wales, Crewe and even North Wales but I do not think they would be seen in the East Midlands in your timeframe.

Also the class 25s would have been disappearing when the 58s arrived and were gone by the time the 60s came on the scene (1989).

Dutch livery on 37s would have appeared in 1990. 

DRS 56 is as you say too modern. I am not familiar with the DRS 56 but if it does not have the modified cantrail grilles it could be back dated with a respray.

 

Hopefully this helps.

 

Eamon

 

 

 

 

There was a Poole to Derby working in the 1980s (definitely up to 1983, and maybe later) that was regularly class 33 hauled. 

 

And, of course, if you're doing anything near Derby, you can always run whatever you want that's correct for the timeframe and say it's on an RTC special!

[BR Blue]

2 hours ago, lather said:

 

There was a Poole to Derby working in the 1980s (definitely up to 1983, and maybe later) that was regularly class 33 hauled. 

 

And, of course, if you're doing anything near Derby, you can always run whatever you want that's correct for the timeframe and say it's on an RTC special!

That is a good idea

 

As for a 57. There is no much you can do unfortunately. Maybe get a 56 with the money if you sell it

 

[18B]

On ‎15‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 06:56, NorthEndCab said:

I have a vague recollection of there being an oil terminal somewhere near Ironville on the Erewash, possibly Doe Hill?

Also somewhere that was something to do with explosives for quarries/collieries in the same general area.  

 

Yes, Alfreton explosives and Chemicals, it had ferry vans in of Nitrate from France and sent small vans of explosives out.

[18B]

On ‎15‎/‎04‎/‎2020 at 10:26, Fat Controller said:

 Metal Box had a plant at Kirkby-in-Ashfield, which recieved tinplate in VCAs, and then SPAs.

There were oil terminals at Doe Hill and Warsop (BP).

Mansfield Sand had a quarry at Berry Hill.

Stanton and Staveley ironworks, now part of St-Gobain, I believe, has despatched large-diameter cast-iron pipes by rail for export relatively recently. The loads were carried in a mix of BDA and SPA wagons. I'm not aware of any recent inbound traffic; if there were, I would expect pig-iron and scrap, as the blast furnaces have been shut for quite a long time. There had been chemical traffic from part of the site, using by-products from the coking ovens.

 

 

The oil terminal last received train in about 1991

[JN]

On 14/04/2020 at 17:02, Ted-ish said:

Hi folks, I really need your advice and guidance.

 

I'm trying to plan my layout around real locations, with inspiration from Duncan's "Shirebrook" layout on here, I'll be incorporating my own version.

 

That area has heavy coal traffic, that's a given.

 

However, what else might there be, where does it come from and go etc?

 

My research has turned up these industries:
 

• Ketton Cement Works at one end of the layout - IN coal / OUT cement
• A power station off scene (I'm thinking of having a helix or two) - IN coal / OUT empties
• Oxcroft Coal Disposal Point - IN coal / OUT crushed coal
• Shirebrook itself has a TMD and a station - IN fuel / OUT empties
• Ideas to verify:
  • Heavy oil (fuel) for the above TMD and other areas - there was a tank at Oxcroft, I assume for refueling
  • Soda Ash for a glassworks perhaps - would this be appropriate for the area (East Midlands)?
  • But where does the Soda Ash come from? Coal + limestone, from what location/plant?

 

In short, I want to add many reasons for the layout to exist. Supply and demand, like the prototype. So I can run sessions to a 'WTT' and actually move, shunt and ship wares to customers.

 

Locomotives aka fill in the blanks for what I have, I might have bought the wrong locos:

 

• I have 3 class 58's for Coal MGR - were these only from mine to power station?
• I've seen Class 20's moving empties, but the above goods too? I don't own any of these yet.
• Class BR 25, 2x Rf 26, 31 and 2x 33s - the 33's if not appropriate here can run engineer duties (they're dutch livery)
• Class 37's - 1 dutch, 1 Rf
• Class 47's - 1 Rf, 1 BR blue
• Class 56 rf
• Class 56 DRS - this needs to go, it's too modern
• Class 60 rf
• Class 08's - pretty simple, yard work and shunting... at least that's one I can get right!

 

I know I'm asking a lot here, so thank you in advance if you provide information!

 

The East Midlands is quite a big area, but from what you're saying I imagine you really mean the Derbyshire/Nottinghamshire area. Coal mines, power stations, the beer-making industry around Burton. The East Midlands is not really somewhere I associate with a lot of heavy industry. Not like Strathclyde, Teeside/Tyneside, South Wales or South/West Yorkshire. In that way, the East Midlands similar to Lancashire.

 

I don't know when they started or if they have finished (or how they operated in the power station), but I know there was limestone traffic from Peak Forrest to Ratcliffe-on-Soar that is/was used to soften the East Midlands' heavy water (Paul Harrison is probably your person of choice to speak to for information on this).

 

Before your era there would have been the Corby Steelworks in the south of the county. Not much at all in Leicestershire, other than something of a textile industry. Perhaps vans distributing high-value or mass-produced wares. Probably mass-produced would be more realistic. A couple of flows of steel etc would have gone through Trent Junc between the North East, South Wales and Yorkshire (Scotland-South Wales trains went through the Welsh Marches). I can't think of any 'commanding heights' industries apart from coal. Basford Hall, Coatbridge and Trafford Park are inland intermodal terminals, so its possible to have prototypical style on a fictitious basis of something like: East Midlands Airport is built and connected earlier than it was and also used as a Railfreight Distribution hub for the East Midlands (this being just one example). I ordered from Hong Kong in 2019 came in through East Midlands Airport. Some of the old coal mining sites are now used as distribution centres, so its not completely unrealistic. Well, maybe for the early to mid-90s...