Terminal station baggage platform help

[simon b]

Hi guys, I'm thinking of building a commuter station set in the 1970's, and looking for help on how prototypical this layout plan is. More specifically the location of the baggage platform on the plan, has anyone ever seen a staggered platform setup like that?

 

The station building will be elevated above the ends of the tracks with stair ways down to the platforms, I did originally plan all the tracks the same length with no baggage platform but thought that it would add interest.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2020 by simon b

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

Hi guys, I'm thinking of building a commuter station set in the 1970's, and looking for help on how prototypical this layout plan is. More specifically the location of the baggage platform on the plan, has anyone ever seen a staggered platform setup like that?

 

The station building will be elevated above the ends of the tracks with stair ways down to the platforms, I did originally plan all the tracks the same length with no baggage platform but thought that it would add interest.

 

Stand to be corrected, but my understanding is that in general there wasn't a separate baggage platform - the baggage was loaded/unloaded from the main platform while the baggage cars were attached to the train.

 

But all is not lost, because you want to look into the "Express" services the railways offered, essentially a parcel service.  Most common example would be the Railway Express Agency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_Express_Agency

 

This commonly did have a separate track/building for handling special cars (at least at major stations), and the location was frequently close to the passenger platforms - in the case of Detroit it was a "special" platform that in appearance was similar to the other through platforms, in Toronto both CN and CP had their express platforms/buildings at either end of the main passenger platforms with separate tracks.  If you go here http://www.trainweb.org/oldtimetrains/CPR_Toronto/COACH_YARD.htm

you can see the 1932 or 1945 track plans and see the respective express buildings and their tracks - CP was to the right of the station, CN to the left.  The CP is closer to what you are proposing, with 3 dead end tracks almost right up against the side of the station.

 

Can't be sure, but I would think though it would be doubtful that they would arrange things the way you are proposing - the express services had there own building / part of building that had vehicle access for pickup/drop off of parcels - think a simplified freight shed idea - so being surrounded by passenger stuff wouldn't be ideal.

Edited April 17, 2020 by mdvle

[mdvle]

Should also note, baggage or express services (and their associated special cars) didn't (in general, there could be an exception out there) operate on commuter trains.

 

 

[simon b]

Thanks for the links, the rail express agency seems like the sort of thing I'm looking for. Though as you say it would normally be separate from the passenger platforms, I did think it was an odd looking platform arrangement but was trying to do something with the middle track as opposed to just stabling loco's on it. 

 

It does look more believable with just 3 full tracks up to the building, I might build that as it is and plan an extension later.

 

  

[mdvle]

2 hours ago, simon b said:

Thanks for the links, the rail express agency seems like the sort of thing I'm looking for. Though as you say it would normally be separate from the passenger platforms, I did think it was an odd looking platform arrangement but was trying to do something with the middle track as opposed to just stabling loco's on it. 

 

It does look more believable with just 3 full tracks up to the building, I might build that as it is and plan an extension later.

 

  

 

There is nothing saying you have to have the middle track - many stations, particuarly it seems in the eastern US, didn't - for example this picture from the 70s of the Erie-Lackawana (formerly Lackawana) Hoboken Terminal in NJ where commuters would get off and transfer to ferries to get to NYC.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/wavz13/4237509720

 

Another option would be to flip the track layout back-to-front, have the platform 3 be a former express agency track that with the decline in the express traffic has been converted to be an extra passenger platform (as in the 70s the one thing that was growing in passenger terms was commuter rail as the States were forced into taking responsibility).  Then instead of having a concrete wall as your backdrop you could have fascia of the former express building, maybe slightly run down in appearance, with doors/windows blocked off - maybe one set of doors turned into a passenger exit.

 

 

[long island jack]

If your going to model baggage/REA cars the would always be at the head end(most trains) so your head shunt after the point may need to be larger, so your head end power can pull the cars off or you could use a switcher to drop on the end to switch cars,REA went out of business in about 1974-75, and this all depends how long the layouts going to be,scale etc.

[stivesnick]

Hi Simon 

 

On my 7th Street Terminal layout, refer separate thread on this page. The platform on the left in the photo below was used for mail traffic, whilst I had a separate track and building (bottom right on photo) for express/ less than car load freight cars that were added to the passenger trains. 

 

Hope this is useful.

 

Nick 

 

 

Edited April 18, 2020 by stivesnick

[Regularity]

7 hours ago, mdvle said:

There is nothing saying you have to have the middle track - many stations, particuarly it seems in the eastern US, didn't

Frequently (usually?) the trains were backed into stub-end terminals, so that the passenger cars were near the terminal buildings and the REA cars etc could be easily removed from the train, hence the phrase “head-end” traffic. Even major cities on what might appear to be through routes could be served by such terminals, with reversing wyes in place to enable this from either direction.

This seems odd to us in Europe, but the major railroads were operating long-haul services across a big country, and the extra time required was insignificant compared to the operational ease this created. It was the advent of air traffic and the interstate highways which killed off the long distance passenger traffic by rail, and hastened the demise of the REA - effectively a precursor to all the delivery firms we now see.

[dave1905]

Couple of points.

 

The only time I've seen "baggage" cars on a commuter train were some that carried a combine for transporting newspapers to suburban points.  The cars were not loaded from a platform.  The papers were loaded from a truck to baggage carts and the carts rolled to wherever the combine was and loaded into the car.

 

By 1970 or later I would be willing to bet that 99.99% of a commuter trains in the US didn't carry baggage cars, LCL, Express, or REA cars.  By the1970's, rail LCL and REA were pretty much dead.

 

Any baggage that would be handled would be loaded on a baggage cart and handled that way.

[simon b]

On 18/04/2020 at 04:03, mdvle said:

 

 

 

Another option would be to flip the track layout back-to-front, have the platform 3 be a former express agency track that with the decline in the express traffic has been converted to be an extra passenger platform (as in the 70s the one thing that was growing in passenger terms was commuter rail as the States were forced into taking responsibility).  Then instead of having a concrete wall as your backdrop you could have fascia of the former express building, maybe slightly run down in appearance, with doors/windows blocked off - maybe one set of doors turned into a passenger exit.

 

 

That's a good idea. If I model platform 3 as a former REA track so that it looks like it was never actually connected to the terminal building, I could build some sort of temporary elevated walkway to link it to the rest of the station. I'll have a play around with some different ideas I think.  

 

The other option of course is to model it with the REA building still in use, and just keep passengers to the island platform.

Edited April 20, 2020 by simon b

[simon b]

Yep, it definitely works better with the track plan flipped around.

 

 

The base board is an old one I had laying about, and the track is old peco code 100. I'll start a layout thread for this at some point, but at the moment I'm trying to use up old bits of track and other things that are going spare.  I think I'll build a long REA building along the back track, then I'll decide if it's going to be in use or converted to a passenger platform.

[mdvle]

May not be prototypical, but perhaps have it a bit of both?

 

Perhaps the REA has "retreated" into only a portion of the original building, barely staying around for 1 or 2 midday regular passenger trains - don't even need to model the trains, maybe they now bypass this station and just the REA car is switched off elsewhere and moved into the station in the slower middle of the day or late evening.

 

Meanwhile, the commuter operation takes the platform during the peaks when they need the extra platform space, and thus they have taken over part of the REA building.

[dave1905]

If you want to model REA, LCL or "express" in the 1970's then you need to be modeling a piggyback ramp because that's where that business was by then.

 

LCL would almost never be carried on a passenger train.  LCL was shipments of less than about 8000 lbs.  If I wanted to ship 3000 lbs of nails to a hardware distributor, I would ship it LCL.  That's not something I would want to delay a passenger train to load or unload.  LCL was also not expedited service, "express" was expedited service, it was small packages and it was carried on passenger trains (hence Railway EXPRESS Agency).  Commuter trains almost never carried either.  They didn't go far enough and the passengers didn't want the delay associated with handling either of them.

 

By 1969 REA had less than 10% of the intercity package service and less than 10% of that moved by rail.  The business was in a death spiral and by 1975 the company ceased all operations.  I grew up in Philadelphia in the 60's and 70's and whenever we would drive by 30th St Station, we would pass long lines of stored REA cars

 

At LARGE stations they would have a dedicated track or tracks and building.  At a smaller station, if they had anything at all, they would have baggage carts, which by the 1970's would have had rubber tires.  Raised platforms would have been very rare.  Back when I first moved to Omaha in the late 1980's, while railfanning the abandoned terminal trackage north of town I found a field with dozens of those REA carts rusting away in the weeds.

 

Really all you need is a low level platform track and baggage carts.  You don't switch the cars you use a little tow motor to pull carts over to where the cars are.  By the 1970's a 50 ton capy car might only have a couple tons of lading in it.  LCL and express cars are rarely "full" because they are made up of many smaller shipments of odd sizes so can't be stacked to full height.  They didn't have racks or shelves in them.

[Class 74]

Hi Simon

 

Interesting, the commuter trains theme is just perfect for little space. If you do Metra then you have a lot of possibilities with different engines. If you are looking for something special and are good in painting, these is for you:  https://www.shapeways.com/product/MHSL3T7S2/ho-scale-emd-f40c-metra?optionId=57248148&li=marketplace

 

But I wouldn't do an functional REA track, exept your layout is set in the 60's. I will use my REA buidling as a local warehouse when Amtrak rules the layout. Another solution is to use one track as a refueling station or just for stagging extra coaches for the rush hour. You also have to think that modern commuters always have the loco outbound if it's the big city like Chicago or inbound when you model the terminal station outside of the city. If it's the "Big City Station", you can change locos easily. As the terminal you have to switch the coaches as well. Of course only if you operate with cab cars.

 

Or you can do this track on the top for a electrified Interurban like the North Shore or the still existing South Shore.

 

Puuuh... that's a lot to think about!

 

Cheers

(another) Simon

[mdvle]

Just to point out that while all this is information is informative and appreciated, it really only applies if the layout builder is going for 100% accuracy (which they have indicated one way or another).

 

If he wants something that looks reasonably prototypical but adjusted for their operating fun, then taking this info and using bits and pieces to set the layout in the 70s where there still is a active REA is fine.

[simon b]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'm not going for 100% accuracy with this, rather that if it looks right it is right. 

 

I'm basing the layout in the New york area, so planning to run trains from the New Haven/Penn central. The Long island Railroad is also something I have an interest in, particularly the GP38 + FA1 power pack combo is something I would love to model. Though I think those came in around 1976? 

 

If I wanted to model the 90's I could run Metronorth FL9's and FP10's for something different.

Edited May 4, 2020 by simon b