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richbrummitt
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12 hours ago, justin1985 said:

I also thread all of the normal etched chairs for a given rail on in advance, just the same as with plastic easitrac chairs. I find that much easier than trying to thread them individually from below then across!

 

I can't figure out how you do this. Could you elaborate please?

 

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51 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

 

I can't figure out how you do this. Could you elaborate please?

 

 

I use a jig (I 3D printed one, which I think is now available from the shop? Or you could easily mill one) that has slots that are quite shallow. When I press the etched chair open over this they only open into a V shape that is just about open enough to slide into the end of a rail, but still grips it. 

 

I think the original suggestion was to use a pinboard pin to press the chairs open, but I've found the point of very fine tweezers work better - they're kind of square.

 

Only once the rail is in place and the neighbouring chair is soldered do I "squidge" the etched chair with tweezers to make sure it's flat across the bottom and gripping the rail nicely.

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If I may follow on from Jim and Tim last Thursday, with apologies to Richard for hi-jacking his Ogbourne thread again (maybe we could do with a "Track" thread in this forum?)  

 

I totally take on board and agree with Jim and Tim's comments, that there is enough slack in the 2FS track and wheel standards to accommodate a surprising degree of un-evenness, and that which we do end up with can usually be addressed by the "big flat file".  I am not aversed to using that precision tool myself (I have 2)! 

 

We each have our own likes and dislikes, to which we all apply Rule 1.  We admire and respect each other's modelling (especially that of our dental surgeons :)), taking tips and tricks from each other to evolve our own methods to produce our own models the way we like them.  Jim's is a lovely representation of the Caley's interlaced sleepering, and the track on CF was way ahead of it's time when it started 40 years ago and still looks very much the part.

 

Speaking personally, the thing that stands out first when I look at prototype track is its alignment - which on running lines is usually alluringly smooth.  So that is what makes the first impact on me in a model, and I try my best to reproduce that in my own (which takes me ages - I'm no trained engineer either).  Other features that also reflect how I see the prototype are shiny check and wing rails, and the evenness of construction (this stands out more to me than whether the track is chaired or not).  And I notice how smoothly the trains move over it - in reality there can be a sway when the leading wheels hit the set at the toe (or where the straight planing  ends and becomes radius'ed, or where the check rail pulls the vehicle over).  These are small when reduced to scale (especially 2FS), and are rarely in the vertical plane; I want to avoid a loco kicking and lurching over the points too.  (It can be very different in goods and loco yards where track maintenance is less critical).  So I try and minimise the vertical irregularities (which should aid the electrical pick-up, too).

 

Over the years, I have realised that a number of features of our track components and the ways I have assembled them can compromise the vertical alignment, and as a basic principle it just seems "good practice" to try and minimise them at the construction stage - especially if there is little cost in difficulty or time.   I try and use my big flat file as a last resort!

 

With Richard reporting quite significant height differences between his soldered and ABS chaired track, it seemed an appropriate place to bring together the factors that I think could be having an effect, whether theoretical or practical, and then others can take from them anything that think may be helpful to them.  We all do it differently to suit our own skills and habits, and one factor may be significant with one technique but not with another.  I am aware that I often do end up with overkill, and my apologies for that!

 

Laurie Adams 

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Height issue in the toe area of the shorter switch has been resolved with the replacement of plastic sleepers with copperclad. 
 

475D7DA5-AB44-4E29-B731-75D7C92573F8.thumb.jpeg.d29a9dd801a97f9954e1528543bf5b91.jpeg

 

It’s now as close as can be hoped for. 
 

I’ve put all the slide chairs in on this side this evening. @justin1985 is correct that it is virtually impossible to introduce chairs from below at the side. The remaining four chairs on this rail will be ‘fun’. 
 

5AF6E85E-1A3C-466C-B2F8-3BD9E661017B.jpeg.5de0f88755fb7d8b90c33fa3d27f7e3e.jpeg
 

I’ve also bent and filed the Vs. I shall make an attempt on silver soldering these but there is nowhere particularly safe to wave a torch around to do that inside so it is a job for daylight. 

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No need for silver soldering in my experience.  I build up the V in situ as I described above.  Once the two rails have been soldered together and to a few sleepers there is little chance of them moving.

 

Jim

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10 hours ago, Caley Jim said:

No need for silver soldering in my experience.  I build up the V in situ as I described above.  Once the two rails have been soldered together and to a few sleepers there is little chance of them moving.

 

Jim

 

I understand how this can work. The splice is made between the inner and outer points of the V the way I have done the rails. There is some more filing after the V is soldered to take the surplus rail out in this case. I don't fancy doing that operation with the rail in place on the baseboard. I've done it that way to follow GWR practice rather than modelling practicality. I have made a few attempts but never managed to silver solder anything before. The last track I made was 100% Easitrac for Littlemore and there I could soft solder without risk of the joint moving. If/when it doesn't work out I can change to another method. 

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Exhibit 1. Silver soldered success:

 

47A53ED7-0757-46D5-BEA6-A225C9A2EDBB.jpeg.87f9ce576b0ca149768da19038af3a52.jpeg

 

The rails were clipped to an aluminium plate with the end to be soldered overhanging the edge. The plate was then held and supported so the joint was perpendicular to the floor. This allows the solder to be placed onto the top of the joint touching both parts. It seemed this was important based on the YouTube video I watched. I don’t normally watch YouTube instructional videos but this particular one seems to be informative and presented safely. I can’t find it again now, which is a shame because there could have been some other good content from that presenter (jewellery maker). Everything was cleaned up prior and some flux made up from borax cone and water. The video showed a clumpy paste liberally applies so I did the same. Heated it up with a small butane torch add a clipping of solder wire prepared ready and heat a little more. 
 

Feeling pleased with my success I arranged the second V on the aluminium with bulldog clips and proceeded as before. The solder did not flow much and has made a joint only in one spot. I think the flux went too hot and spoiled. My instructor said if it goes black it’s game over. I didn’t see it go black but when I looked again it is not clean like the first. 
 

I washed off in an alkaline solution followed by water. A 50% success rate is up 50% on previous attempts. 
 

Trial fitting the good V over the plan showed that I’d not made the rails long enough to make the already laid sleepers so I moved them around to suit - carefully peeling and replacing the Easitrac - and trimmed the rails back to match the new rail join locations. (They are still close to proper rail lengths as available at the time.)


35C3F518-AA00-4466-84F8-727D99E809F1.jpeg.18ed7d831a0838ced2f8b08335b08277.jpeg

 

The splice is well centred so the length to the blunt nose was checked and the joined rails snipped back. Then the rail assembly is into a good (read well fitting/matching) set of vice jaws for filing. 

 

DD42E022-3650-4D78-8BF7-BF4E4C222F23.jpeg.6477154d39a5b4c067e0d0d6e0c53395.jpeg
 

filed and turned over and filed again until both sides a flush to the leg of the rail at the splice, like so. 
 

B2B36C6C-A131-4B97-8766-DBA8124C4D36.jpeg.7cabdefd4f32bac3982d7828eaf930ec.jpeg

 

With the flexibility of the rail laterally I somehow managed to ease the assembly into the Easitrac a chair per leg at a time. 
 

944E6C4C-715D-4673-B720-62E4DBFF0D4A.jpeg.7a472d8944d2c8bd5728b308efd001ba.jpeg

 

I had spent some time in between times preparing single chairs for threading onto rail but did not remember to thread them here before inserting the rails fully. I will be glad if that little extra height difference between the coppperclad and Easitrac for introducing them here I think. If I then fix the nose solidly to the timber and pressed down the height change from the nose to the Easitrac is about .2mm over 4 timber spaces so <1:100 gradient. Probably okay?

 

 

Edited by richbrummitt
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Laurie could better answer this, but I think that his process is to solder the chair to the sleeper, before introducing the rail, and then soldering that into the chair.

 

The claws of the chairplate are more of a cosmetic effect rater than a physical support.

 

That way, the rail is not pressed down into the chair, causing the height difference that you have at the rail end.

 

I haven't used Lauries chairs, but have watched him assembling some track.

 

I, personally, thought "Life's too short", and left him to it.

 

REgards

 

Ian

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Some more chairs added. This is the more difficult stock rail on the yard turnout now in place. 
 

AC75A819-874D-4508-87F0-D780C4671C76.thumb.jpeg.659ae891af93a8efd5e68be0fed4ce42.jpeg

 

If it looks wonky it’s because it is - there’s a joggle and set bend in it for the catch point blade. The adjacent wing rail has one too for the second catch point blade, which will require some accurate bending. 

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Sometimes little things make you happy. I remembered to slide all the required chairs on before starting to solder any this evening. The other stock rail is now taking shape and the flow of track is becoming visible. 
 

656D623B-3BCB-4821-B5DE-A6FC8BD7CDB7.jpeg.20015256c04021f3198da8eaf1f694f5.jpeg

 

I’ll get the slide chairs in still and there are deliberately a couple by the heel where the rails are too close for two plain chairs. Some butchery of slide chairs is required here once the closure rails go in and they too can be easily slipped into place later. 
 

I feel like I’m getting my eye in for these chairs now. 

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Fitting the closure rail for the first siding has taken a while for reasons mentioned previously. First the remaining slide chairs were fixed in place and a short piece fitted between two switch rails. 
 

F0BDD44D-1140-4C85-9649-993604009C28.jpeg.9ff162dffee246ca467f823bb7077fa2.jpeg

 

Next the wing rail. Well, rails, since I cut bent and filed both while I could remember the bend lengths after looking them up. 
 

Bend and file the rail head

1EF0473A-071C-4582-A2FF-CF339E2D4F24.jpeg.61d1bb0ccd8d58149ad8301a524a8a77.jpeg

 

Measure, trim, measure again, repeat as required, clamp measure numerous times and when it’s right

 

A6CBECB8-4E8A-483B-B2CC-AE8961D783E3.jpeg.585225b491c919ac549e23e7cd91ef53.jpeg
 

another small bend

 

87BFF1A4-0737-40E5-AB68-252C4B338B51.jpeg.64f7204c4c7b2244ae5aa27799c9c535.jpeg

 

 It’s only half a rail width flare so a tiny bend. Then check the fit. 
 

72A0AAF6-310C-4F87-B51C-7AB488DFE326.jpeg.b3b1fae3eb8a0b844a0c871493ea817e.jpeg

 

The ‘straight’ closure rail now fitted

 

40C1BF1B-724C-4946-9DCC-D683C5F2C59E.jpeg.01ad928c66a6f9849018362a8835de29.jpeg

 

I’ve now spotted a few items of work still to do beyond fitting the the last three rails for this turnout: one of the switch blades needs a trim at the heel where it’s a touch long; there is a slide chair bridging an isolation gap; and the wing rail I just fitted needs splitting to create the separate electrical section for the crossing. I’ve failed to plan for that last one and there’s 20mm board thickness there. Oh bother. 

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Milestone reached: The rest of the chairs are in place for this piece. 
 

The check rails were cut to length filed down in profile and the flares bent. 
 

C1B1940A-8FF0-46A9-A129-D33818594E94.jpeg.a72647ec04686b804fb86d6eb2e4b5c2.jpeg

 

That turned out to be a bit too much flare and had to be bent back on the first test fit. 
 

Waiting to be fixed in place. 
 

85A679B5-BDAC-4125-979D-C7945269B7B0.jpeg.841637949752a68a8ce03b92d8d1f6ec.jpeg

 

I’ve had a quick test with a couple of wagons. A six wheeled siphon and GE mac (at least I think that’s what it is) were to hand. There’s a tendency for the wheel to just catch the nose on the lower route. Hopefully the check rails will sort that out. After all that is their purpose. 


Then the gapping will be sorted. I’ve marked the location on one wing/closure rail so I can remember where it’s meant to be now the plan is largely obscured. 

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I use this for cutting gaps in rail now, it is much finer than a razor saw:

 

JLC Saw

 

I have the 'Anniversary set' than comes in a nice case with spare blades. The blades are brittle, so make sure you keep it straight while sawing.

 

They seem to usually show as 'out of stock', but they magically appear when you ask.

 

 

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That's looking good, Rich.  You've done all the refinements - accurate (ie. Templot) geometry and timbering, nice even chairs, filed (with the chamfer) -down wing and check rails (and stock rails along the traps) for blackening, working traps - + putting the rail gaps in where they should be (which is something I haven't done).  Bravo!

 

Gap-cutting: can be a problem because the web and foot of our rail are generally thinner than the gaps between teeth of the saw, in which case the saw catches on them.  In my hands, a thin rotary saw gives the thinnest gap, but it still catches and end up with additional partial cuts (in rail and fingers); the bulk of the saw body also prevents a vertical cut unless using a larger diameter blade - which catches the more.  I have given up with an Expo-type razor saw for the same reason (I haven't found one with fine enough teeth).  I now use a piercing saw with the finest blade I can get - 80-90 teeth per inch (Phil Atkinson of Hobby Holidays down the road from me sells these - haven't looked at the other suppliers' lists).  It still can catch at the end of the cut, so I finish off with strokes going with the teeth rather than against them. 

 

Just to answer Ian' (Smeeton')s point of Nov 6th:  Soldering the chairs onto the sleepers as a separate initial stage was intrinsic to the jig-based chaired track systems (Versaline, Fencehouses, Bill Blackburn) for standard points,  but I don't do this (nor do I pre-tin anything - rail, chairs or sleepers).  The sleepers are stuck down on the template, the rail is held in lengths of Easitrac at each end (or by pins or blocks of brass with a slot in), and the chair is slid in (whichever way it goes most easily - from the side, or along under the rail); the chair and rail are manoevred into position and held there by light downward pressure on the rail.  A small blob of a well-wetting flux (I use liquid rosin) is touched onto the side of the chair (you can see this flash across the joints) and 3x0.6mm solder balls carried onto the claw of the chair (inner claw for the plain chairs) on the iron.  Hold the iron on just long enough to see all the solder has been sucked into the joint to leave a clean-looking chair, and then angle the outer claw in towards the rail with the iron.  I usually add another 2 or 3 solder balls to the outer chair for added strength, but Ian is right that the claws are primarily cosmetic  (as long as you have a good joint for the base of the rail against the chair and chair-to-sleeper).

 

Hope this might help, and keep up the good work!

 

Laurie

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Ian Morgan said:

One side of the JLC saw blade has 34 teeth per cm  (86 per inch?).

 

 

It does look rather too large though, based on the picture. I want to make an isolation cut in the inner rails only. How big is the blade?

 

Piercing saw is my preferred route at the moment since I know I can make a clean delicate cut in such material with it. I might have to mutilate something because the frame I have is not large enough to get around the board. 

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42 minutes ago, richbrummitt said:

Piercing saw is my preferred route at the moment since I know I can make a clean delicate cut in such material with it. I might have to mutilate something because the frame I have is not large enough to get around the board. 

 

Drill a hole through the baseboard. Thread piercing saw blade through hole. Hang heavy weight on the bottom of it with string. Grip the top of it with pliers and work to and fro. Keep your toes clear. Fill hole with filler if necessary.

 

Martin.

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28 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

Drill a hole through the baseboard. Thread piercing saw blade through hole. Hang heavy weight on the bottom of it with string. Grip the top of it with pliers and work to and fro. Keep your toes clear. Fill hole with filler if necessary.

Alternatively, grip it between the sides of the jaws of a pin vice.  Then you can concentrate on the cutting without having to keep a tight grip with the pliers.  You could also just use a broken piece of piercing saw blade in this way and set it so that you're cutting on the 'push' stroke.

 

Jim

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6 hours ago, richbrummitt said:

 

It does look rather too large though, based on the picture. I want to make an isolation cut in the inner rails only. How big is the blade?

 

 

The blade is similar in size to an old-fashioned razor blade. I use it for gapping frogs in 2mm finescale and Peco N gauge points. I only use about 5-8mm of the end of the saw blade at an acute angle. Happy to let you borrow mine.

 

 

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The saw makes very fine cuts. It’s a bit hairy going through the web where there are not quite enough teeth engaged. 
 

The cut was so fine I decided to make it wider in the event that a change in temperature caused the tiny gap to close. I may have overdone it somewhat. 
 

0CBB2FE0-91A1-4422-9E30-DEDB626189F0.jpeg.45bec9172b877797898b97f5a1cbf2b8.jpeg

 

all buzzed out fine with a little work from a file and scalpel between the obviously bridged timber gap mentioned previously. 
 

I put the saw into the head of the rail in a few places where rail joins were marked on the Templot plan. You can see how fine the cuts are. 
 

0C01BC37-F482-4EBE-9503-50ABC083AEA0.jpeg.d22c64bd4c5a85eb3bc0a54c8a0eb7b2.jpeg


Now where did I put the fishplate etches?

Edited by richbrummitt
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Onto the workings.  I had some stretcher bars etched (a couple of years ago now) and wanted to test these out. They are like the ‘film strip’ type but fixed to the rails with solder like a more conventional TOU or moving sleeper. 
 

AE20AA7B-A39A-4504-A507-8AEF2268BB95.jpeg.3f50bc651349012ef9113b9377428cc9.jpeg

 

A quick measure suggests that I got the separation correct. I’ve filed the switch blades so that the foot is still on the rail and you can see how the shape has been adjusted in the top pair with a piercing saw to accommodate the foot. 
 

The design intent is to sweat onto some copperclad and later the half etched stabiliser is removed and the copper gapped to isolate the two rails. I have some very thin double sided but elected for some 0.4mm for additional stability. After a gapping of the copper there would not be much left of 0.2mm thickness for strength. 
 

FC865226-AF20-47A9-BBAB-2DAC563FA554.jpeg.6de79b1ff790a84769613d081fe9491f.jpeg

 

08FA088A-5A46-4082-8382-A6F9B55D026D.jpeg.3ba0686d0459f82a82ddc3f0b350012f.jpeg

 

The side pieces that locate beneath the stock rails to prevent blade lifting need shortening and a little profile. (I deliberately left them long when drawing the etch.) 

 

A connection needs to be made to the under board mechanism planned. A length of thin bore tube was soldered on as perpendicular as I could manage and the surrounding copperclad filed back to the bottom the etch that, at about 1mm deep, is all the space there is below the rail. 

 

4E837C5B-4161-4DAE-BF9A-633AA90F1D36.jpeg.43eabbf64d92dc4b80fd23f148a31465.jpeg
 

To fit into place the whole must fit between the timbers (3mm) to allow the manipulation required. The tube must be trimmed back. 
 

8498194B-D40A-4FAA-BE08-366BFB6FA88E.jpeg.a9c33fd87f1da032aab6d4cd3aad7291.jpeg

 

It looks a little uneven in this cruel enlargement. It has the shape I was after. A quick check suggests it will be possible to insert (and subsequently removed if ever required to maintain) into the space between the timbers and under the rails. 

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