Cast numberplates on wagon ends

[Compound2632]

Back in the depths of the 19th century, Great Western open wagons displayed their numbers four-foldly: painted on each side on the bottom plank, at one time at the right hand end but by the 1890s at least, at the left hand end; and on the ends, on the second plank up, centrally between the end stanchions. Sometime around or before the 4-plank wagons of Lot 287 (c. 1898), it became the practice to use cast numberplates rather than painted numbers; on 4-plank wagons these were placed in the same positions as the painted numbers. Cast plates bearing the letters G.W.R were placed on the right hand end of the bottom plank, where the same lettering had, likewise, previously been painted.

 

The use of cast numberplates would appear to have been universal for new construction up to at least the diagram O10 wagons of Lot 522 (c. 1906), although after 1904, the cast G.W.R plates were not fitted, the 25" G W initials being painted on the wagon side instead, following a practice originating with the Midland Railway in the 1880s. I base this assertion on not having seen a photograph of an open wagon in pre-1904 livery in the number range 73189 to 78499 with painted number. (Those being the lowest and highest "new" numbers of which I have seen photographs). Many Lots were given "old" numbers during this period; these wagons seem also to have got cast numberplates, e.g. O2 No. 29301 of Lot 496; at least some V6 iron minks built in this period had cast numberplates, e.g. No. 11070 of Lot 207. However, I don't believe I've seen any evidence of wagons built before c. 1898 being given cast numberplates retrospectively.

 

The open wagons built in this period include the last 3,000 out of the 24,000 or so 4-plank wagons built 1887-1902 - around 12% of these wagons; in goods yard photos from the first few years of the 20th century, the proportion of 4-plank opens with cast numberplates is higher than this - up to 30% in a photograph of Devonport goods station in 1903, out of a total of 16 4-plank wagons. Other diagrams are the O5 4-plank wagons, the O4 5-plank wagons, and the O2/O10 7-plank wagons.

 

As I've said, on 4-plank wagons, the cast number plate on the wagon end, like the painted number before it, was on the second plank up. Once the post-1904 livery with painted numbers was established, wagon numbers seem universally to have been painted on the bottom end plank of opens, either between the stanchions or on the left. I have a note of a photo I once saw of 5-plank open No. 77445* with the cast number plate in this same position, bottom end plank between the stanchions:

 

*What diagram is that? My notes from Atkins don't go that far into the 20th century. It's between the O4 and O2 number blocks.

 

So, the urgent question for my modelling is, is there any photographic evidence for the position of the cast numberplate on the end of wagons of diagrams O4 and O2/O10? The bottom plank, or the second plank up? 

[Craigw]

In GWR Goods services part 2A, on page 56 there is a photo of a few early O4 5 plank wagons. These are from one of the early builds prior to DC1 and they have lever brakes and cast plates. The numbers visible are 75067 and 75069. Both have cast plates on the side but 75067 has the number on the end PAINTED  under the tarp bar between the end stanchions. Cant see 75069 end.

 

Regards,  

 

Craig W

[Chrisbr]

Stephen,

 

Does this help?

[Compound2632]

8 hours ago, Craigw said:

In GWR Goods services part 2A, on page 56 there is a photo of a few early O4 5 plank wagons. These are from one of the early builds prior to DC1 and they have lever brakes and cast plates. The numbers visible are 75067 and 75069. Both have cast plates on the side but 75067 has the number on the end PAINTED  under the tarp bar between the end stanchions. Cant see 75069 end.

 

Regards,  

 

Craig W

 

I just knew there wouldn't be a straightforward answer! According to my notes from Atkins, those are both wagons from Lot 377, the first production lot. When you say painted under the tarp bar, I read that as meaning directly under the pivot plate, i.e. on the second plank up?

 

I have to say that I had assumed all O4s had DCI brakes. The O4 numbers I can easily make from the Coopercraft plates are 76070 and 76081, both Lot 414. It would be very useful to know before I go any further, which brakes wagons of this lot sported.

 

1 hour ago, Chrisbr said:

Stephen,

 

Does this help?

 

This confirms my observation that 4-plank wagons had the cast plates on the second plank up. This is a DCI wagon. Until recently I had believed that Lot 374 was the only batch of DCI 4-planks - diagram O5 - but it was recently mentioned (by @Miss Prism I think) that late lots of the standard 4-plank wagon were also built with DCI brakes, in which case I cease to see the distinction between diagram O5 and the earlier 4-plank wagons - as far as I am aware they are alike in all things but brakes (as I thought). According to my notes from Atkins, this number 10793 is in the number range for Lots 392 and 374 but no other 4-plank lot.

 

I should mention that I have muddied the waters further by myself, by looking closely at a photograph of Vastern Yard, Reading, c. 1905, in an article by Chris Turner in Great Western Railway Journal No. 81 (Wild Swan, 2012). An O2 can be seen, with large G W initials on the side and the number painted on the end, on the left side of the bottom plank (as I think became standard practice). The number certainly starts 29, it may be 29335 - which according to my notes from Atkins makes it from Lot 496, which I think fits with the c. 1905 date. It certainly looks fairly freshly painted. Unfortunately there's a pesky little van - I think it's a Salt Union one - blocking the view, so I can't see if its got a cast numberplate or a painted number on the side.

 

So, for the moment, the only positive evidence I have for cast numberplate on the end of a 5 or 7 plank open is that photo of 77445 (is that diagram O3?) at Reading Central. 

 

My notes on lots and numbering were taken a while ago from A.G. Atkins, W. Beard and R. Tourret, GWR Goods Wagons (3rd edition, Tourret Publishing, 1998). Unfortunately the copy I usually consult is in lockdown a mile and a half away.

 

[Miss Prism]

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries2/open-12325-small.jpg

 

I think my very simplistic, or at least default, approach is:

 

sheet supporter: cast plate on bottom end plank

no sheet supporter: cast plaste on penultimate end plank

 

[Compound2632]

2 minutes ago, Miss Prism said:

http://www.gwr.org.uk/liveries2/open-12325-small.jpg

 

I think my very simplistic, or at least default, approach is:

 

sheet supporter: cast plate on bottom end plank

no sheet supporter: cast plaste on penultimate end plank

 

 

Thanks. Lot 410 I think?

[Miss Prism]

On 04/05/2020 at 12:59, Compound2632 said:

Thanks. Lot 410 I think?

 

Could be - there are gaps in the recorded lot 410 sequence.

 

Edited February 21, 2022 by Miss Prism
typo

[Compound2632]

@Miss Prism, I hope you won't mind if I borrow that photo, as I'm feeling a little chuffed:

 

 

 

 

This is an O4 I built in 2016, before I'd really got to grips with Great Western wagon red, or had a proper understanding of the sheet bar mechanism. What I'm really pleased about is the folding of the sheet, since I'm pretty sure I didn't have this photo for reference!

Edited February 21, 2022 by Compound2632
Images re-inserted

[Chrisbr]

19 hours ago, Compound2632 said:

 

Thanks. Lot 410 I think?

Definitely Lot 410, built March 1903 with sheet supports from new and DC1 brakes.