Jump to content
 

Deltics in East Yorkshire


EddieK
 Share

Recommended Posts

Back in the day, when Deltics were demoted from the cream of ECML services due to HST introduction, I am aware of their regular use between Doncaster and Hull. I am also aware that Deltics appeared on a Summer Saturday service that ran from Filey to Scarborough (OK, just north of East Yorkshire...).

But: the question is: were there ever any Deltics used on the Hull - Scarborough line apart from what I have just mentioned? Talking in BR days....

Over to you.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Nothing to add, but found your Filey service at napier-chronichles:

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt79-80.htm

http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt80-81.htm

 

5N60 05:55 Clifton - Filey (SO - 26/05-01/09 - forms 1N60)

0N60 07:55 York MPD - Scarborough (SO - 26/05-01/09 - 08:05 ex York, arr Scarborough 08:59 - to work 1N60 from Scarborough)

1N60 08:55 Filey - Newcastle (SO - 26/05-01/09)

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

Just found an SO Bridlington service, does that count? (Out of my area!)

 

5A37 05:35 York Clifton - Bridlington (SO - works 1A37) in 1980/81.

1A37 08:47 Bridlington - King's Cross (SO - 02/06-29/09 in 1979/80, 31/5-27/9 in 1980/81)

Edited by keefer
Link to post
Share on other sites

Bridlington is on the route in question, obviously.  My 1981-82 WTT has the ECS working via Anlaby Road Junction, then to arrive at Brid 07.26. Here it sat until departure at 08.47 northwards to Scarborough. 

I see also that the 07.00 DMU from Hull to Scarborough called at Brid between 07.50 and 08.00. From my limited knowledge of Brid Station, there were two down platforms in those days, so the DMU could have passed the stock waiting to form 1A37.

Wonder what the booked motive power was for 5A37 / 1A37 ????

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 5 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...
  • RMweb Premium
On 25/04/2020 at 00:04, EddieK said:

Wonder what the booked motive power was for 5A37 / 1A37 ????

 

On 18/10/2020 at 19:57, EddieK said:

Thanks to Napier Chronicles, I have found some records of Deltics hauling 5A37 during the period that I am interested in. Thanks for the heads-up...

 

I imagine that the booked motive power was a 47/0, 47/4s not being permitted north of Hull.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Andrew,

Since finding the stuff about 5A37, I have looked at it in greater detail and established that on the dates in question, 5A37 only went from York to Scarborough (direct) to then form a Scarborough - KX service, rather than all the way "around the block" via Beverley so as to start in service from Bridlington.

Obvious question: what was the reason for the ban on 47/4 north of Hull? Did this ban extend all of the way from Hull to Seamer?

 

Eddie

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
On 11/11/2020 at 22:52, EddieK said:

Andrew,

Since finding the stuff about 5A37, I have looked at it in greater detail and established that on the dates in question, 5A37 only went from York to Scarborough (direct) to then form a Scarborough - KX service, rather than all the way "around the block" via Beverley so as to start in service from Bridlington.

Obvious question: what was the reason for the ban on 47/4 north of Hull? Did this ban extend all of the way from Hull to Seamer?

 

Eddie

Looking at the Sectional Appendix (March 2018) for the Walton Street Jn – Seamer West Jn section of line, all loco classes (including 08s and 09s) are restricted with the following statement, "Due to the condition of the track, locomotive hauled trains and light locomotives are prohibited. Engineering trains will be permitted subject to authorisation by the Infrastructure Manager’s track engineer." Further, classes 25, 60, 67 and 68 are prohibited, even on engineers trains.

 

How long these restrictions have been in place I don't know, but could have included class 55s prior to their withdrawal. I'll see if can find an earlier Sectional Appendix to confirm. 

 

Hope this helps.

  • Thanks 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
1 hour ago, iands said:

Looking at the Sectional Appendix (March 2018) for the Walton Street Jn – Seamer West Jn section of line, all loco classes (including 08s and 09s) are restricted with the following statement, "Due to the condition of the track, locomotive hauled trains and light locomotives are prohibited. Engineering trains will be permitted subject to authorisation by the Infrastructure Manager’s track engineer." Further, classes 25, 60, 67 and 68 are prohibited, even on engineers trains.

 

How long these restrictions have been in place I don't know, but could have included class 55s prior to their withdrawal. I'll see if can find an earlier Sectional Appendix to confirm. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Is class 25 shown in the current SA?

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
11 hours ago, keefer said:

1970s/80s Sectional Appendices are available at

https://limitofshunt.org.uk/document-library/sectional-appendices/

 

Had a quick look at the 1979 & 1983 Northern Area ones and can find no restrictions regarding loco types.

Presumably a modern restriction although it's strange that cl.25 is still listed?

Hi Keefer,

 

Yep, I visit the Limit of Shunt site from time to time. The SRS site has even more Appendices available, if you are a member.

Note quite sure from what date, but NR started adding "Route Availability/Restriction" tables to the Sectional Appendices, so this info doesn't appear in the BR or Railtrack versions of the SAs (well not in the format that NR present the info). Obviously this information was held elsewhere in another document.

The tables in the current (LNE) SAs provide the RA and restriction details for the following;

Diesel Multiple Units

Electric Multiple Units

Coaching Stock

Locomotives Electric and Diesel

Freight containers/swap bodies

 

Not sure why LNE retained class 25s in their tables, doesn't seem that other "regions" have.

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Gold
4 hours ago, iands said:

Hi Keefer,

 

Yep, I visit the Limit of Shunt site from time to time. The SRS site has even more Appendices available, if you are a member.

Note quite sure from what date, but NR started adding "Route Availability/Restriction" tables to the Sectional Appendices, so this info doesn't appear in the BR or Railtrack versions of the SAs (well not in the format that NR present the info). Obviously this information was held elsewhere in another document.

The tables in the current (LNE) SAs provide the RA and restriction details for the following;

Diesel Multiple Units

Electric Multiple Units

Coaching Stock

Locomotives Electric and Diesel

Freight containers/swap bodies

 

Not sure why LNE retained class 25s in their tables, doesn't seem that other "regions" have.

 

 

Hi Ian

The class 25 in the LNE publications is certainly a recent thing.  I wonder if the 25 that works on the esk Valley has prompted it and someone doesn't realise its captive to whitby- Battersby? 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
2 hours ago, russ p said:

 

Hi Ian

The class 25 in the LNE publications is certainly a recent thing.  I wonder if the 25 that works on the esk Valley has prompted it and someone doesn't realise its captive to whitby- Battersby? 

Hi Russ,

Yes, the inclusion of the class 25 is due to it working over the Esk Valley line (Battersby - Grosmont Jn, Grosmont Jn - Whitby). The way the table is drawn, there is a "Y" in the 25 column against Esk Valley line entries, and an "N" in the 25 column against every other line entry, so yes, that makes the 25 "captive", but to be fair it is the only way the info could be presented (not to leave any "blanks" in the table) and not a case of not realising it is "captive".

  • Informative/Useful 2
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
  • RMweb Premium
On 11/11/2020 at 22:52, EddieK said:

Andrew,

Since finding the stuff about 5A37, I have looked at it in greater detail and established that on the dates in question, 5A37 only went from York to Scarborough (direct) to then form a Scarborough - KX service, rather than all the way "around the block" via Beverley so as to start in service from Bridlington.

Obvious question: what was the reason for the ban on 47/4 north of Hull? Did this ban extend all of the way from Hull to Seamer?

 

Eddie


Sorry only just seen this. No idea on how far it extended and I didn’t know about it until I went on a railtour over the line with 47210, which was known in advance as being a 47/0 as 47/4s were not permitted. I have always understood it was route availability. 47/0s are RA6 whereas 47/4s are RA7.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Brushman, that makes sense. Not been able to check my railway reference library as everything is randomly thrown into my railway room at present...

From trawling the internet, also referring to the June 1981-May 1982 WTT I see that the Bridlington - Scarborough - KX train 1A37 is shown as Electric Heated and with D280 timings. If Class 47/4 was not permitted on the line, I wonder what traction was used? Class 31/4??

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium

The whole section of line from Walton Street Junction to Seamer West Junction is RA6, with all loco hauled services and light engines prohibited over this section. Engineering trains require special dispensation from the Track Engineer.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Further researches have been fruitful, and the "Hull to Scarborough Line" group on Facebook has unearthed 55008 working 1G19 Selby to Bridlington charter on Sunday 13th July 1980, with the return working (1G19 again) later the same day. 

 

Further fruit (though not Deltic related) was finding a Birmingham to Bridlington train hauled by double headed 25s in June 1980.

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • 3 months later...
  • RMweb Premium
6 minutes ago, Piston said:

I travelled between Hull & Kings Cross 1977-80. Southbound on Fri afternoon I had to change at Doncaster.

Would I have travelled behind a Deltic on the last part of my journey ?

Northbound on Sunday afternoon it was a through Hull train. 

Could that have been a Deltic ?

Thanks.

 

 

The answer to both is possibly, particularly at the latter end of your date range. 

 

Best bet, especially with regard to the Sunday train is to have a trawl through this site of you have any diaries with the dates you travelled. 

 

Deltics: Chronicles of Napier (napier-chronicles.co.uk)

 

 

 

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
On 27/05/2021 at 20:38, Piston said:

I travelled between Hull & Kings Cross 1977-80. Southbound on Fri afternoon I had to change at Doncaster.

Would I have travelled behind a Deltic on the last part of my journey ?

Northbound on Sunday afternoon it was a through Hull train. 

Could that have been a Deltic ?

Thanks.

 


Since they were new and different, would you have realised you were travelling on an HST? Although they were first introduced on the ECML in May 1978, it took some time for them to take over all the most important services. Many of the Deltic diagrammed trains called at Doncaster so there is a pretty good chance you did get one, unless you know what trains you caught and they were diagrammed a 47. 47s regularly worked Deltic diagrams but much less so the other way round. As others have said Chronicles of Napier is your best bet.

 

Going north, the late Sunday afternoon King Cross to Hull train (around 16.30-17.30 from KX) was diagrammed for a Deltic throughout 1977-1980.

Edited by brushman47544
Link to post
Share on other sites

  • RMweb Premium
11 hours ago, Piston said:

I wasn't very observant about trains in those days.

Southbound - I caught an early Fri afternoon train (Oct '77-March '80) Cottingham to Hull, changed to the Doncaster train, changed there to the Kings Cross train.

Northbound - I got the mid Sun afternoon (same period) only (?) through Hull train. It arrived at Hull 8/9pm (?) when there were no more trains to Cottingham. Too late. So I had to catch the bus.

I think that none of them were HSTs. I got the impression that were all loco hauled.

I beginning to believe that I probably was behind a Deltic on one of these journeys.

The train thundered southbound & made a good racket.

Silly question but would a 47 have maintained a Deltic's speed ?

 

 

 

Deltics max speed according to the notice in the cab was 100 mph.

 

A Brush 4 was 95 mph. Not to say that both were never exceeded, depends on a variety of factors. I worked a couple of Brush 4 jobs subbing for a Deltic, one we oost about 7 mins Doncaster to Kx the other in the down direction we were right time departure and arrival.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...