EddieK Posted April 23, 2020 Share Posted April 23, 2020 Back in the day, when Deltics were demoted from the cream of ECML services due to HST introduction, I am aware of their regular use between Doncaster and Hull. I am also aware that Deltics appeared on a Summer Saturday service that ran from Filey to Scarborough (OK, just north of East Yorkshire...). But: the question is: were there ever any Deltics used on the Hull - Scarborough line apart from what I have just mentioned? Talking in BR days.... Over to you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted April 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 24, 2020 Nothing to add, but found your Filey service at napier-chronichles: http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt79-80.htm http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/wtt80-81.htm 5N60 05:55 Clifton - Filey (SO - 26/05-01/09 - forms 1N60) 0N60 07:55 York MPD - Scarborough (SO - 26/05-01/09 - 08:05 ex York, arr Scarborough 08:59 - to work 1N60 from Scarborough) 1N60 08:55 Filey - Newcastle (SO - 26/05-01/09) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted April 24, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 24, 2020 (edited) Just found an SO Bridlington service, does that count? (Out of my area!) 5A37 05:35 York Clifton - Bridlington (SO - works 1A37) in 1980/81. 1A37 08:47 Bridlington - King's Cross (SO - 02/06-29/09 in 1979/80, 31/5-27/9 in 1980/81) Edited April 24, 2020 by keefer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieK Posted April 24, 2020 Author Share Posted April 24, 2020 Bridlington is on the route in question, obviously. My 1981-82 WTT has the ECS working via Anlaby Road Junction, then to arrive at Brid 07.26. Here it sat until departure at 08.47 northwards to Scarborough. I see also that the 07.00 DMU from Hull to Scarborough called at Brid between 07.50 and 08.00. From my limited knowledge of Brid Station, there were two down platforms in those days, so the DMU could have passed the stock waiting to form 1A37. Wonder what the booked motive power was for 5A37 / 1A37 ???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted April 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 25, 2020 I'm assuming they could be Deltic-hauled, as the Napier-chronicles WTT info is given as "Booked Deltic diagrams and possible turns". 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieK Posted October 18, 2020 Author Share Posted October 18, 2020 Thanks to Napier Chronicles, I have found some records of Deltics hauling 5A37 during the period that I am interested in. Thanks for the heads-up... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted November 10, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 10, 2020 On 25/04/2020 at 00:04, EddieK said: Wonder what the booked motive power was for 5A37 / 1A37 ???? On 18/10/2020 at 19:57, EddieK said: Thanks to Napier Chronicles, I have found some records of Deltics hauling 5A37 during the period that I am interested in. Thanks for the heads-up... I imagine that the booked motive power was a 47/0, 47/4s not being permitted north of Hull. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieK Posted November 11, 2020 Author Share Posted November 11, 2020 Andrew, Since finding the stuff about 5A37, I have looked at it in greater detail and established that on the dates in question, 5A37 only went from York to Scarborough (direct) to then form a Scarborough - KX service, rather than all the way "around the block" via Beverley so as to start in service from Bridlington. Obvious question: what was the reason for the ban on 47/4 north of Hull? Did this ban extend all of the way from Hull to Seamer? Eddie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted November 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 16, 2020 On 11/11/2020 at 22:52, EddieK said: Andrew, Since finding the stuff about 5A37, I have looked at it in greater detail and established that on the dates in question, 5A37 only went from York to Scarborough (direct) to then form a Scarborough - KX service, rather than all the way "around the block" via Beverley so as to start in service from Bridlington. Obvious question: what was the reason for the ban on 47/4 north of Hull? Did this ban extend all of the way from Hull to Seamer? Eddie Looking at the Sectional Appendix (March 2018) for the Walton Street Jn – Seamer West Jn section of line, all loco classes (including 08s and 09s) are restricted with the following statement, "Due to the condition of the track, locomotive hauled trains and light locomotives are prohibited. Engineering trains will be permitted subject to authorisation by the Infrastructure Manager’s track engineer." Further, classes 25, 60, 67 and 68 are prohibited, even on engineers trains. How long these restrictions have been in place I don't know, but could have included class 55s prior to their withdrawal. I'll see if can find an earlier Sectional Appendix to confirm. Hope this helps. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 16, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2020 1 hour ago, iands said: Looking at the Sectional Appendix (March 2018) for the Walton Street Jn – Seamer West Jn section of line, all loco classes (including 08s and 09s) are restricted with the following statement, "Due to the condition of the track, locomotive hauled trains and light locomotives are prohibited. Engineering trains will be permitted subject to authorisation by the Infrastructure Manager’s track engineer." Further, classes 25, 60, 67 and 68 are prohibited, even on engineers trains. How long these restrictions have been in place I don't know, but could have included class 55s prior to their withdrawal. I'll see if can find an earlier Sectional Appendix to confirm. Hope this helps. Is class 25 shown in the current SA? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted November 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 16, 2020 13 minutes ago, russ p said: Is class 25 shown in the current SA? Hi Russ, Yep, in the March 2018 version I was looking at. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted November 16, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 16, 2020 1970s/80s Sectional Appendices are available at https://limitofshunt.org.uk/document-library/sectional-appendices/ Had a quick look at the 1979 & 1983 Northern Area ones and can find no restrictions regarding loco types. Presumably a modern restriction although it's strange that cl.25 is still listed? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted November 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 17, 2020 11 hours ago, keefer said: 1970s/80s Sectional Appendices are available at https://limitofshunt.org.uk/document-library/sectional-appendices/ Had a quick look at the 1979 & 1983 Northern Area ones and can find no restrictions regarding loco types. Presumably a modern restriction although it's strange that cl.25 is still listed? Hi Keefer, Yep, I visit the Limit of Shunt site from time to time. The SRS site has even more Appendices available, if you are a member. Note quite sure from what date, but NR started adding "Route Availability/Restriction" tables to the Sectional Appendices, so this info doesn't appear in the BR or Railtrack versions of the SAs (well not in the format that NR present the info). Obviously this information was held elsewhere in another document. The tables in the current (LNE) SAs provide the RA and restriction details for the following; Diesel Multiple Units Electric Multiple Units Coaching Stock Locomotives Electric and Diesel Freight containers/swap bodies Not sure why LNE retained class 25s in their tables, doesn't seem that other "regions" have. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold russ p Posted November 17, 2020 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 17, 2020 4 hours ago, iands said: Hi Keefer, Yep, I visit the Limit of Shunt site from time to time. The SRS site has even more Appendices available, if you are a member. Note quite sure from what date, but NR started adding "Route Availability/Restriction" tables to the Sectional Appendices, so this info doesn't appear in the BR or Railtrack versions of the SAs (well not in the format that NR present the info). Obviously this information was held elsewhere in another document. The tables in the current (LNE) SAs provide the RA and restriction details for the following; Diesel Multiple Units Electric Multiple Units Coaching Stock Locomotives Electric and Diesel Freight containers/swap bodies Not sure why LNE retained class 25s in their tables, doesn't seem that other "regions" have. Hi Ian The class 25 in the LNE publications is certainly a recent thing. I wonder if the 25 that works on the esk Valley has prompted it and someone doesn't realise its captive to whitby- Battersby? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted November 17, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 17, 2020 2 hours ago, russ p said: Hi Ian The class 25 in the LNE publications is certainly a recent thing. I wonder if the 25 that works on the esk Valley has prompted it and someone doesn't realise its captive to whitby- Battersby? Hi Russ, Yes, the inclusion of the class 25 is due to it working over the Esk Valley line (Battersby - Grosmont Jn, Grosmont Jn - Whitby). The way the table is drawn, there is a "Y" in the 25 column against Esk Valley line entries, and an "N" in the 25 column against every other line entry, so yes, that makes the 25 "captive", but to be fair it is the only way the info could be presented (not to leave any "blanks" in the table) and not a case of not realising it is "captive". 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 20, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 20, 2020 On 11/11/2020 at 22:52, EddieK said: Andrew, Since finding the stuff about 5A37, I have looked at it in greater detail and established that on the dates in question, 5A37 only went from York to Scarborough (direct) to then form a Scarborough - KX service, rather than all the way "around the block" via Beverley so as to start in service from Bridlington. Obvious question: what was the reason for the ban on 47/4 north of Hull? Did this ban extend all of the way from Hull to Seamer? Eddie Sorry only just seen this. No idea on how far it extended and I didn’t know about it until I went on a railtour over the line with 47210, which was known in advance as being a 47/0 as 47/4s were not permitted. I have always understood it was route availability. 47/0s are RA6 whereas 47/4s are RA7. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieK Posted December 21, 2020 Author Share Posted December 21, 2020 Brushman, that makes sense. Not been able to check my railway reference library as everything is randomly thrown into my railway room at present... From trawling the internet, also referring to the June 1981-May 1982 WTT I see that the Bridlington - Scarborough - KX train 1A37 is shown as Electric Heated and with D280 timings. If Class 47/4 was not permitted on the line, I wonder what traction was used? Class 31/4?? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted December 25, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 25, 2020 The Hull end of the line is the issue. If Wikipedia is to be believed, Hull - Seamer has parts RA6 to RA8, whereas Seamer - Scarborough is RA8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Railpassion Posted December 26, 2020 Share Posted December 26, 2020 Loco restrictions date from post privatisation. In BR days all major types visited including deltics. As a youth I spotted cl 20,25(rare),31,37,40,44,45,46,47,55,56(special). 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium iands Posted December 26, 2020 RMweb Premium Share Posted December 26, 2020 The whole section of line from Walton Street Junction to Seamer West Junction is RA6, with all loco hauled services and light engines prohibited over this section. Engineering trains require special dispensation from the Track Engineer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieK Posted February 22, 2021 Author Share Posted February 22, 2021 Further researches have been fruitful, and the "Hull to Scarborough Line" group on Facebook has unearthed 55008 working 1G19 Selby to Bridlington charter on Sunday 13th July 1980, with the return working (1G19 again) later the same day. Further fruit (though not Deltic related) was finding a Birmingham to Bridlington train hauled by double headed 25s in June 1980. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Simon Lee Posted May 27, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 27, 2021 6 minutes ago, Piston said: I travelled between Hull & Kings Cross 1977-80. Southbound on Fri afternoon I had to change at Doncaster. Would I have travelled behind a Deltic on the last part of my journey ? Northbound on Sunday afternoon it was a through Hull train. Could that have been a Deltic ? Thanks. The answer to both is possibly, particularly at the latter end of your date range. Best bet, especially with regard to the Sunday train is to have a trawl through this site of you have any diaries with the dates you travelled. Deltics: Chronicles of Napier (napier-chronicles.co.uk) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted May 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2021 http://www.napier-chronicles.co.uk/report.htm Click on the period you wish to view and you will see the booked or 'likely' Deltic turns (info taken from WTTs etc.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted May 29, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2021 (edited) On 27/05/2021 at 20:38, Piston said: I travelled between Hull & Kings Cross 1977-80. Southbound on Fri afternoon I had to change at Doncaster. Would I have travelled behind a Deltic on the last part of my journey ? Northbound on Sunday afternoon it was a through Hull train. Could that have been a Deltic ? Thanks. Since they were new and different, would you have realised you were travelling on an HST? Although they were first introduced on the ECML in May 1978, it took some time for them to take over all the most important services. Many of the Deltic diagrammed trains called at Doncaster so there is a pretty good chance you did get one, unless you know what trains you caught and they were diagrammed a 47. 47s regularly worked Deltic diagrams but much less so the other way round. As others have said Chronicles of Napier is your best bet. Going north, the late Sunday afternoon King Cross to Hull train (around 16.30-17.30 from KX) was diagrammed for a Deltic throughout 1977-1980. Edited May 29, 2021 by brushman47544 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Simon Lee Posted May 30, 2021 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2021 11 hours ago, Piston said: I wasn't very observant about trains in those days. Southbound - I caught an early Fri afternoon train (Oct '77-March '80) Cottingham to Hull, changed to the Doncaster train, changed there to the Kings Cross train. Northbound - I got the mid Sun afternoon (same period) only (?) through Hull train. It arrived at Hull 8/9pm (?) when there were no more trains to Cottingham. Too late. So I had to catch the bus. I think that none of them were HSTs. I got the impression that were all loco hauled. I beginning to believe that I probably was behind a Deltic on one of these journeys. The train thundered southbound & made a good racket. Silly question but would a 47 have maintained a Deltic's speed ? Deltics max speed according to the notice in the cab was 100 mph. A Brush 4 was 95 mph. Not to say that both were never exceeded, depends on a variety of factors. I worked a couple of Brush 4 jobs subbing for a Deltic, one we oost about 7 mins Doncaster to Kx the other in the down direction we were right time departure and arrival. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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