LMS Motive Power Depot (fictional) - thoughts and advice sought

[hap]

I have been remodelling my garage and found I have space for a long and narrow shelf layout.  It will be 00 and powered using DCC.  Economic necessity will require all track / points etc to be pulled from existing items I currently own.   All are Peco and include a couple of curved set track one each of LH and RH, a handful of LH and RH streamline, a couple of set track Ys and a double slip.  Flexible track will be used for the rest.

 

As I have not built a layout since I was ~7 years of (I am ~7x that these days) - I would really value any feedback and comments as to the operating quality of my plan before any board building and track laying occurs.  I am also seeking an appropriate name to call this.  And for the curious, yes I still have that old layout from the mid 1970s - a 8ft x 4ft based on the Layout 11 from the Hornby track plans of the era.

 

My chosen location has some interesting opportunities / challenges.  At one end I need to accommodate the shed door spring and arm mechanism and the other end I need to allow access to a wall in the garage.  This gives me maximum dimensions of 335cm x 34cm.   It will be located at approximately my eye level ~175cm from the floor to accommodate a car.

 

Thinking through what theme I'd to build, I have landed on a motive power depot (LMS to match most of my locos).  The advantage is that it provides good operating opportunities for at least a handful of locos and some selected rolling stock.  It would allow engines to come off an imaginary mainline and be decommissioned for the day.  Then the next morning, be watered / coaled etc before returning to service.  I'd like to include a turntable (I own a Peco one) to approximate what was at Camden (1B) and a simple coal drop (something like what was at Hull Botanic Gardens (53B).  A traverser is also an optional extra - just for something interesting (possibly using a modified Dapol turntable kit).  I'd also like to include a small area where selected wagons or a carriage is worked on.

I also own a couple of Scaledale engine sheds (one 2 track, one single) which should be suitable (although more like branch sheds than a proper depot).  I intend to computerise the turntable (via Arduino and stepper motor) and, if fitted, the traverser.

 

My current track plan is shown below.  It was partially inspired by Widnes depot - but much modified by my constraints and wants.  If I could get glimpses of real sheds into the end result eg Camden turntable & water towers / Hull Botanic Gardens coaling area - that would be a bonus.  The top most line in the track plan is intended to be an incline. to the raised coaling stage.  And yes, I do know a few of the tracks do not connect properly - but the design was done using set track with more geometry constraints than flex track will allow.

 

 

 

 

[DCB]

My spare bedroom layout was a nominal 60" from the floor and worked well. It had a nod under removable section over the door and  I could rest my chin on the track.  Most cars will go under a 58" baseboard as long as you unscrew the aerial...

We had a similar space for an MPD on the old layout, circa 2007 and took a cue from Camden to have the turntable at one end and approach roads running round both sides of the shed with an approach on the side away from the shed. locos go tom the table along the top and from it along the bottom. Coaler is on the way in.  See Pics. I would have ideally used a smaller turntable, 70 ft or 65 ft as my 65 ft at the other station turned the Duchess Ok.

Pics show mk2 shed which was smaller than Mk1 which was 3 roadand 2 locos long, Kk 2 was 2 road and shorter as Mk 1 dominated and hid too many locos.  Other pic shows no loco shed after the roof leaked and ruined it but shows the track layout it worked very well, It was DC  with lots of sections.  It must have been taken on a summer saturday as there are at least 4 Halls on shed.   

Edited April 24, 2020 by DavidCBroad

[TonyMay]

It's generally better to go for a cenotaph type coaling stage than one with a ramp as the ramp takes up far too much space.

 

The longest turnable LMS loco is a Princess.  Garratts are longer but they can't be turned.

[hap]

1 hour ago, TonyMay said:

It's generally better to go for a cenotaph type coaling stage than one with a ramp as the ramp takes up far too much space.

 

The longest turnable LMS loco is a Princess.  Garratts are longer but they can't be turned.

An interesting point there TonyMay re the ramp.  I was thinking having some varying heights would make it a bit more interesting, but you are correct, it takes space.  One to think about.

 

I am under no illusions the layout could store all my locos.

and yes I have a mix of large and smaller engines including a Duchess and a Princess,,,, and a couple of Jinty's....  .  Thankfully they all it on the Peco turntable.  As for the Garratt that I own - well it can magically arrive in the depot whenever it is located within it.  I suspect that expecting the Garratt to operate effectively in the depot is a step too far.

[hap]

1 hour ago, DavidCBroad said:

My spare bedroom layout was a nominal 60" from the floor and worked well. It had a nod under removable section over the door and  I could rest my chin on the track.  Most cars will go under a 58" baseboard as long as you unscrew the aerial...

We had a similar space for an MPD on the old layout, circa 2007 and took a cue from Camden to have the turntable at one end and approach roads running round both sides of the shed with an approach on the side away from the shed. locos go tom the table along the top and from it along the bottom. Coaler is on the way in.  See Pics. I would have ideally used a smaller turntable, 70 ft or 65 ft as my 65 ft at the other station turned the Duchess Ok.

Pics show mk2 shed which was smaller than Mk1 which was 3 roadand 2 locos long, Kk 2 was 2 road and shorter as Mk 1 dominated and hid too many locos.  Other pic shows no loco shed after the roof leaked and ruined it but shows the track layout it worked very well, It was DC  with lots of sections.  It must have been taken on a summer saturday as there are at least 4 Halls on shed.   

 

Thank you David.  I have been studying your track layout intensely.  Some useful grist for the mill.  I like the flow.

 

May I ask how the track worked for the coaler - was it an isolated section of track or did it connect somehow to the rest? 

[Harlequin]

Hi hap,

 

It looks very interesting.

 

The snaking trackwork using curved points on the left looks unrealistic with straighter track all around it. I realise you may be doing that to use existing turnouts but better to spend a bit and straighten it out IMHO.

 

The tracks that hit the turntable aren’t perpendicular to it. It’s important to  plot that correctly to make sure everything will fit properly. Make sure turnouts and turntable workings won’t foul each other.

 

Would the coaling road, Whatever type it was, have been taken off the turntable?

[hap]

22 minutes ago, Harlequin said:

Hi hap,

 

It looks very interesting.

 

The snaking trackwork using curved points on the left looks unrealistic with straighter track all around it. I realise you may be doing that to use existing turnouts but better to spend a bit and straighten it out IMHO.

 

The tracks that hit the turntable aren’t perpendicular to it. It’s important to  plot that correctly to make sure everything will fit properly. Make sure turnouts and turntable workings won’t foul each other.

 

Would the coaling road, Whatever type it was, have been taken off the turntable?

 

Again - most useful observations and some correct guesses Harlequin.  

 

Good points re the turntable and track needing to be perpendicular.  I shall adjust

 

The coaling road.  Yes you are correct. If I am to keep it, it would be best to not connect to the turntable.  Maybe an isolated line.  I'll think about this one.

 

As for the curved points near the shed.  a) yes it is using points I have and b) I wat trying to get away from all parallel track.  Useful to ponder.

 

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello hap

 

All the best for this project...it is normally something that I would go into deeply to help you but time is against me at the moment, so please accept the following as 'a starting point'.

 

There are many track plans to be found via Google, The Engine Shed Society and various books that detail loco sheds, such as the Paul Bolger BR Steam Motive Power Depots.

 

It will be worth investing a reasonable amount of time to get it right. It will pay dividends.

 

Brian (in haste!)

[tractionman]

30 minutes ago, BMacdermott said:

 

There are many track plans to be found via Google, The Engine Shed Society and various books that detail loco sheds, such as the Paul Bolger BR Steam Motive Power Depots.

 

 

 

To add, I recommend the 'LMS Engine Shed' book series, by Chris Hawkins and George Reeve, published by Wild Swan Publications, out of print now but widely available s/h.

 

The vols contain really excellent scaled plans of the engine sheds plus photos and histories, lots of food for thought for layout planning.

 

Hope all goes well with yours.

 

cheers,

 

Keith

 

 

 

[tractionman]

a PS, I should have added, if it's allocations you're interested in, for pre-1948 and post-Nationalisation eras, I recommend this web-site which is a mine of information,

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/

 

I love it, as many allocations books for MPDs often include post-1948 lists, whereas the Shedbashuk blog has (for some sheds) the numbers and classes of shedded locos for the 1930s, which if you are into the Big Four, as I am, makes it a valuable resource.

 

The blogspot has been improved as it now has a shed by shed (geographical) index, using this in combination with the LMS Engine Sheds book series occupies many pleasant evenings for me, plotting and planning!

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[hap]

2 hours ago, BMacdermott said:

Hello hap

 

All the best for this project...it is normally something that I would go into deeply to help you but time is against me at the moment, so please accept the following as 'a starting point'.

 

There are many track plans to be found via Google, The Engine Shed Society and various books that detail loco sheds, such as the Paul Bolger BR Steam Motive Power Depots.

 

It will be worth investing a reasonable amount of time to get it right. It will pay dividends.

 

Brian (in haste!)

Thanks Brian.  Duly noted & the reference appreciated. 

[hap]

33 minutes ago, tractionman said:

a PS, I should have added, if it's allocations you're interested in, for pre-1948 and post-Nationalisation eras, I recommend this web-site which is a mine of information,

 

http://shedbashuk.blogspot.com/

 

I love it, as many allocations books for MPDs often include post-1948 lists, whereas the Shedbashuk blog has (for some sheds) the numbers and classes of shedded locos for the 1930s, which if you are into the Big Four, as I am, makes it a valuable resource.

 

The blogspot has been improved as it now has a shed by shed (geographical) index, using this in combination with the LMS Engine Sheds book series occupies many pleasant evenings for me, plotting and planning!

 

all the best,

 

Keith

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Very useful - thank you

[BMacdermott]

Hello hap

 

Link below may help (although not LMS). If you ignore the 'station tracks' at the foot and 'straighten out' the rest, it should be practical for your space (possibly!). Uses your double slip; enables big engines; uses a small coaler; can be operated 'as prototype'.

 

Brian

 

[DCB]

7 hours ago, hap said:

 

Thank you David.  I have been studying your track layout intensely.  Some useful grist for the mill.  I like the flow.

 

May I ask how the track worked for the coaler - was it an isolated section of track or did it connect somehow to the rest? 

The coaler has a ridiculously steep incline.  Its not obvious on the photo but the tracks went towards the top corner of the room to provide a headshunt for the depot and the incline point was off this incline.  Locos need to use the whole headshunt to rush the incline with 5 wagons.  The real thing also used to rush the inclines, and sometimes slipped back..

If it was LMS I would use a cenotaph coaler but mine was a) GWR and b) we had the coaler from an earlier layout .

The shed was part of a layout, I blocked the station out in the pics.. Essentially it was there to service locos. 

The round the perimeter flow works really well,  Locos follow each other,  no need to keep the turntable approach road clear. Three locos in a line need to be moved clear of the points to release a loco from in the shed. Full size shed had the same issue but six or more locos in a line were sometimes moved in a line.  With this design it is quite easy, with a short head shunt or a long shed approached by a turntable its difficult to change the locos in the shed.  As I said I downsized the shed because I couldn't see what was in it. At night with the room lights off and the loco shed lights on you can sort of make out what's in there but locos do get forgotten about in there, only train hauling locos are allowed on the layout its a working shed. If you have a lot of GBL or Airfix/ Mainline/ Early Bachmann locos which look good but don't run then that's a different thing, 

At a pinch you can get 18  X 4-6-0  locos on shed plus 3 tanks on the short road by the coaler.  12 is more comfortable.   The siding between camera and coaler was where locos waited before taking their trains out so you could be sure the locos were ready to go and not trapped in the shed or turntable

I don't have a track plan but the points were peco streamline live frog code 100  

[Free At Last]

I am just in the process of laying my mpd out, shed at one end, turntable at t'other.  Fitted the turntable yesterday and did the ash pits this morning, coaling tower hopefully tomorrow.

[Black5]

Hap, I did the same as you. Straight board down one side of the garage. Based on Camden, with a few differences due to board joints etc.

I fitted a Locomotech turntable motorising kit to my modified Peco turntable.Easy to fit and a quiet runner but I line track up by mark one eyeball!!

The height I chose was to clear the wing mirror on a Ford Fiesta but I wish now I`d made it higher as viewing would be better ( looking across rather than down on the layout ).

Best of luck with your project

[Free At Last]

Coaling Tower was erected using rapid setting concrete, the man is just having a tea break before installing the wagon hoist.

 

 

Edited April 25, 2020 by Free At Last

[hap]

Loving the pictures Free At Last.  Please keep them coming

 

[BMacdermott]

Hello hap

 

Have just had a quick look at the Bolger BR Steam Motive Power Depots LMS book and find that the only 'straight and narrow' depot is Holyhead. Let me know if you want the track plan via PM.

 

The depot has the advantage that it was home to 'big engines' such Black 5s, Scots and Brits as well as some Jinties - so would fit fairly well with your stud. 

 

Like most layouts, some compromise and ingenuity will be required.

 

Brian

[hap]

While I contemplate and absorb all the advice I have been provided.  I felt the need to do some other - non-layout modelling.  Accordingly, I started work on detailing the Peco turntable.

 

I wanted a brick floor in the well, so printed some segments with a brick pattern using a 3d printer.  Given I have not used my 3d printer for much model rail printing, I was pleasantly surprised at the outcome.  The segments are only 0.5mm thick - so quite thin.  The brick wall is simply printed paper using a laser printer.  These have all been attached using simple PVA glue so I can easily remove them if I tire or want to modify the design.  Since the photos I have detailed the track within the well.

 

I am thinking I may try designing and printing an inspection pit for the engine shed as a next mini project.

[hap]

Again - thanking everyone in advance for their feedback.  I have tried a number of iterations and permutations - with the layout below having some appeal.  Given the advice received, I have based this one on Holyhead.  If I go this way, it may have to be a 'what if' some benefactor bought the site and set up a preserved steam depot running historic and new build engines as a 'true' model looks rather difficult to achieve given my baseboard constraints.

 

As it is - I will need a 'bulge' around the turntable.  I am yet to fully test if this will be a big issue or if it can be accommodated.

 

So - I'd appreciate any feedback about the practicality of the following (and I do no thinks are not joined up - I will be using flex track for all but the points)

[hap]

[Harlequin]

Hi hap,

 

Do you need the bulge? It looks like you could just leave out the tracks going around the TT and connect things together to give the double road engine shed a headshunt and a simpler connection to the TT. (That would also get rid of those ugly Settrack curved points!)

 

Edit: Do the lines to the right of the TT go anywhere?

 

The second from top connection to the TT has a reverse curve that could be removed.

 

And you could easily replace the small Y SL-97 with a smoother formation if you could justify spending a bit on some new turnouts. The same applies to various other places, actually, and it might be worth it if your locos are bigger than tank engines. Think about a big pacific traversing a small radius turnout...

 

 

Edited May 17, 2020 by Harlequin

[Wheatley]

If it's an LMS shed then Ratio do a Stranraer coaler, like a cenotaph but smaller and more useful for a smaller shed. You'll need a road for the coal wagon alongside it, you could use the space gained to put a 4 road shed where you have the original coaling stage. 

[tractionman]

1 hour ago, Wheatley said:

If it's an LMS shed then Ratio do a Stranraer coaler, like a cenotaph but smaller and more useful for a smaller shed. You'll need a road for the coal wagon alongside it, you could use the space gained to put a 4 road shed where you have the original coaling stage. 

 

Some additional inf on this type of coaler and how it operated on the thread here,

 

 

all the best,

 

Keith