CXW's NER & H&BR (and Industrial) Workbench

[CXW1]

8 hours ago, micknich2003 said:

Chris, possibly too late now, but I have copy's of the Kitson Class J drawings, I also have many photo's.

 

Hello Mick

 

It's not too late as I've hardly started. After much pondering I am going to try and build the D24 with twin beam compensation on the driving wheels. The chassis in the picture is very much an experiment/test into getting something to work and it may not end up being the actual chassis. The wheelbase is correct so if the chassis works I might adapt and use it.  

 

I have got an outline drawing of a D24 in the orange HMRS book and a few photos and information off the internet but that's it. Therefore any drawings and photos you have would be greatly appreciated.

 

If all goes to plan the loco will end up in LNER condition and I assume that some or all of the class would have been fitted with domed boilers at some point. I have a picture of No. 2426 in 1924 - this has a domeless boiler and looks like it is painted LNER green. It would be a lot easier for me if they ended up being painted black at some point. 

 

As ever, thanks for your help.

 

Chris 

 

[micklner]

My Y8 ended up permantly coupled to a wagon with the pick ups fitted to the wagon. It has a cut down Mainly Trains SR Terrier chassis .

[CXW1]

1 minute ago, micklner said:

My Y8 ended up permantly coupled to a wagon with the pick ups fitted to the wagon. It has a cut down Mainly Trains SR Terrier chassis .

 

I have seen it on your thread and it made me think about doing something similar pick-up-wise. 

 

I also have an old Ks Y8 body and one day I will make a new chassis for it. The body was built by my grandfather about 40 years ago so it has some sentimental value. The original chassis and motor packed up years ago. 

 

The 'scratchbuilt' Y8 is not 100% scratchbuilt as it has an Alexander Models Y7 chassis which has been cut down to fit. Dave Alexander sold me a chassis and all of the castings and lost wax parts from his Y7 kit separately for a ridiculously low price. He was a good bloke who will be missed. 

 

 

[micklner]

I had presumed it was a K's offering , very impressive work. Yes look after the old K's version and treasure it.

 

Very sad about Dave hopefully somone will take his kits on in due course. They are far too good to be lost forever, I only have a G5 chassis of his running on my old  Geo Norton G5 .

[micknich2003]

2 hours ago, CXW1 said:

 

Hello Mick

 

It's not too late as I've hardly started. After much pondering I am going to try and build the D24 with twin beam compensation on the driving wheels. The chassis in the picture is very much an experiment/test into getting something to work and it may not end up being the actual chassis. The wheelbase is correct so if the chassis works I might adapt and use it.  

 

I have got an outline drawing of a D24 in the orange HMRS book and a few photos and information off the internet but that's it. Therefore any drawings and photos you have would be greatly appreciated.

 

If all goes to plan the loco will end up in LNER condition and I assume that some or all of the class would have been fitted with domed boilers at some point. I have a picture of No. 2426 in 1924 - this has a domeless boiler and looks like it is painted LNER green. It would be a lot easier for me if they ended up being painted black at some point. 

 

As ever, thanks for your help.

 

Chris 

 

 

[micknich2003]

Chris, the works drawings run to thirty one sheets.

[CXW1]

17 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

Chris, the works drawings run to thirty one sheets.

 

Many thanks Mick, much appreciated. I think that I should be able to knock something up from the photographs and the basic dimensions that I have, so it probably isn't necessary to post all 31 pages of the works drawings on here.

 

I know that black and white photographs sometimes don't give much away in terms of livery, but some of the locos (especially the clean picture of 2429 third from bottom) look distinctly unlined black as opposed to fully lined-out green. Do you have any information on what liveries were carried and when?

 

 

[micknich2003]

I have gone through all my photo's and I find no evidence of lining in the LNERly "Black Period".

[micklner]

It looks like lining on the front splasher either side of the beading in the last photo of 2428 and on the cab .

 

2429 the same , and also on the front frames over the pit .

Edited May 14, 2020 by micklner

[t-b-g]

Malcolm Crawley built one in LNER 1930s condition and found a reference to them being green up to the 1927/28 livery change and lined black after that. Red lining on a black loco is very tricky to pick up as many films used in that period did not register red. There have been great discussions elsewhere about the technical aspects. There is always a chance that some didn't get lined or were so filthy the lining is invisible but as a secondary passenger class, they should have been lined.

 

If you zoom in on the photos of 2428 and 2429, you can see it on the splashers. When I first looked I couldn't but a good zoom in made it clear.

Edited May 14, 2020 by t-b-g

[CXW1]

1 hour ago, t-b-g said:

Malcolm Crawley built one in LNER 1930s condition and found a reference to them being green up to the 1927/28 livery change and lined black after that. Red lining on a black loco is very tricky to pick up as many films used in that period did not register red. There have been great discussions elsewhere about the technical aspects. There is always a chance that some didn't get lined or were so filthy the lining is invisible but as a secondary passenger class, they should have been lined.

 

If you zoom in on the photos of 2428 and 2429, you can see it on the splashers. When I first looked I couldn't but a good zoom in made it clear.

 

I agree Tony. It was just wishful thinking on my part hoping that I didn't have to bother with lining. There is a long way to go before we start thinking about paint.... 

[t-b-g]

50 minutes ago, CXW1 said:

 

I agree Tony. It was just wishful thinking on my part hoping that I didn't have to bother with lining. There is a long way to go before we start thinking about paint.... 

 

I bet yours gets painted before my Valour!

[CXW1]

A family heirloom – Ks Y8

 

I can’t make any progress on the J79 or D24 until the postman brings some bits and pieces.  

 

A brief conversation on here with micklner a few days ago about Y8 tank locos (and the fact I’ve got nowt else to do) spurred me on to looking at my old Ks Y8. This was originally made by my late grandfather around 40 years ago and it used to sit in his glass cabinet next to the best china. It was painted green and I can’t remember it ever working in that condition. 

 

A 'successful' attempt to make it work was made in the early 1990s. This resulted in the fitting of oversize Romford wheels (which were probably the smallest available at the time but required a couple of holes being made in the footplate to accommodate them ) and a DS10 motor which stuck into the cab. I reckon it had a top scale speed of around 100mph.

 

At the end of the day the body is a bit rough, but it has some sentimental value and I thought it was about time that the Ks Y8 lived again. It will be updated using a modern motor and gearbox and the correct size wheels. But I still want to retain some of its original ‘character’ rather than do a full rebuild.

 

Chassis:

 

I have made a simple chassis which has a rigid rear axle and a front axle in hornblocks. The front axle rests on a fixed beam and should give it some basic compensation. A gearbox will be fitted to the rear axle. Coupling rods were made up from Alan Gibson universals.

 

The chassis is shown below with the offending oversize Romford wheels mentioned above just to get everything set up and running freely. Alan Gibson do some wheels the correct size (3ft diameter).

 

Body:

 

Lots of little jobs done including repairing the holes in the footplate with an overlay of thin brass and making a new backhead. The backhead deliberately protrudes into the cab by a few millimeters to give some extra room for the gearbox and motor.

 

Repairs have been done to the clack valves, tank balance pipe and whistle. New boiler handrails and buffers have been fitted and I have carved off the smokebox door handle and made up a new ‘wheel’ handle. 

 

This will end up being LNER No. 560 which was turned out in lined black until 1937.

[CXW1]

Sorry - managed to post the same thing twice - now removed. 

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by CXW1
Posted twice

[micknich2003]

Chric, K's did a special wheel for their Y8, plastic centered with a "D Fixing" for quartering, I used them a lot in the '70's.

[CXW1]

6 minutes ago, micknich2003 said:

Chric, K's did a special wheel for their Y8, plastic centered with a "D Fixing" for quartering, I used them a lot in the '70's.

 

Mick, I'm pretty sure that it originally had the Ks wheels and a Ks motor, but I don't know what happened to them after the early '90s 'improvements'. I haven't seen them since so I presume they ended up in the bin. The DS10 motor that it acquired was in a motor mount on the front axle. I am guessing that the oversize Romford wheels were fitted because they were slightly bigger than the gear. At least I can hold my hands up and say 'I wasn't responsible'. 

 

[CXW1]

A bit of paint and some transfers on the 'family heirloom' Y8 body today. It has turned OK for a rough old thing that was more or less on the scrapheap a few days ago. It is never going to be a showcase model but that was never the intention. Next job is to make it work but I don't have any wheels, gearbox or motor that will fit. It was very much an after-thought to start on the Y8 a few days ago so I will have to order some stuff. 

 

I have also done a bit more to the twin beam experiment for what will hopefully turn into a D24. I have made and trial-fitted the beams and I have surprised myself because it appears to work (or at least it will when it is supported by a bogie at the front end). I fall firmly into the 'non-engineer' category and most of what I do is just trial and error and working from drawings on the back of an envelope. So far so good.....(I think)..

 

 

Edited May 16, 2020 by CXW1
Correction

[CXW1]

A quick update on some progress with the D24. Most of the material I need for this is on back order with Eileeens but I found enough brass lying around to make a start on the footplate. I was in two minds whether to make it as a single piece, or three separate units (i.e. the main straight part and the front and rear lower parts. In the end I went for the first option as I thought this would give it more strength. 

 

Well, what a right sod that was to make and I still need to get the shape of the valance sorted out and a few other details - it is far from finished and is just plonked in place on the photo below, and I don't have the correct 26mm driving wheels yet. This will be my first scratchbuilt loco which doesn't have a level footplate so it is a bit of learning 'curve' (excuse the pun). 

 

I am going to use the twin beam chassis that I made yesterday and make it fit. The loco is going to be constructed via several sub-assemblies (including cosmetic frames around the front bogie) and it will all come together in the end.

 

I have enough brass sheet to make a start on the cab. The sides and roof are going to have to be a single piece of brass and the step-down at the rear means that it isn't going to be the most straightforward of jobs.

 

 

 

[CXW1]

 

D24 continued…..

 

I made the basic shape of the cab last night and soldered it to the footplate. It is nice and square despite the best efforts of my phone camera to suggest otherwise. I will fit the beading and other details at a later stage. Still some tidying up, filling and filing needed on the valance.

 

The chassis is now fixed to the footplate with two 8BA nuts and bolts. One of them is in the cab which you can’t see, and the other one is soldered to the messy afterthought of a bracket that I have attached to the middle of the footplate. You won’t be able to see this when the splashers and upper frames are fitted (and if I use a shorter bolt) so it should be OK.

 

The loco is currently sitting 2mm lower than it should be, but the correct size wheels will remedy this when they turn up. The square piece of brass between the bogie and the footplate is just a temporary spacer until I make something more permanent.

 

I was initially unsure about using twin beams on the driving axles having never built anything using this system. However, the model seems to be pretty steady and stable when I shove it along the test track so it appears to work in principle. The bogie has no springing in an attempt at providing the ‘3-legged stool’ principle. I’ve just been reading a lively debate about this over on the Wright Writes thread so let’s not go into too much detail about compensation (or the lack of it) here...

 

 

[t-b-g]

I don't think you will go far wrong with what you have done Chris. Practical, simple engineering works every time!

[CXW1]

10 minutes ago, t-b-g said:

I don't think you will go far wrong with what you have done Chris. Practical, simple engineering works every time!

 

That approach definitely works best for me, and you have seen that most of my stuff runs OK. If I'm being honest a lot of the really technical discussions go way over my head. 

[CXW1]

I hadn't planned to do anything this evening but an envelope containing some wheels for the J79 arrived in the post and the temptation proved to be too great. I am using Alan Gibson wheels which I think look better than the equivalent Markits wheels that I used on the J78 crane tank earlier on this thread. I really don't get on with Alan Gibson crankpins though, so I tapped the holes for the crankpins to 10BA and used some Romford crankpins instead. A very light touch with the soldering iron is needed when soldering on the washers, but I guess some Loctite would probably also work. 

 

Anyhow, it works and it runs nicely - certainly better than it did with the original chassis (although this was down to me rather than the design of the chassis). I have used one of the new High Level 1015 motors and I must say that they are very good. I need to make some brakes next, and I must get some paint for this and few other things. 

 

I have fitted a Westinghouse pump in the cab as suggested by the RCTS book. Pretty pointless really as you can't see it. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CXW1]

No progress to report on the D24, J79 or the ‘family heirloom’ Y8 - still waiting for the postie to bring some parts.

 

I have always enjoyed messing around with old Mainline J72 bodies and making new chassis for them. I have a couple of J72s - one on a Comet chassis (I think) and another one on a homemade job and they both rarely see the light of day. I also have a couple that I converted to J71s using the Mainly Trains kit. The most recent of these (No. 399) was pictured a couple of pages ago.

 

The older J71 was built 5 or 6 years ago when I was just starting out messing around with steam locos. It has never been the greatest runner and at the time I didn’t bother shortening the bunker. For those who don’t know, the J71 bunker is approximately 6 inches shorter than on the Mainline/Bachmann J72 body, which sounds nothing in 4mm scale but is actually really noticeable. So, today has seen new pickups fitted (which has improved the running) and other improvements to the body including shortening the bunker. There are no ‘in progress’ pictures of the body modifications as plenty of people have documented these on here previously and it is a well-trodden path. 

 

The loco will end up as No. 1140, which was one of the York carriage pilots and has therefore had all the vacuum brake stuff and group standard buffers added. There is a nice side-on picture in Yeadons to copy from and everything is more or less in the right place. If the parts for the D24 etc arrive next week this will get put to one side for a rainy day, but it should end up being a pleasant little loco when it is re-painted.

 

 

[micklner]

Looks nice, other than the what appear to be very oversize Buffers ?

[CXW1]

2 hours ago, micklner said:

Looks nice, other than the what appear to be very oversize Buffers ?

 

I'm not sure if the buffers are oversize or not. 

 

The loco that I am modelling (like most of the J71s that were allocated to carriage pilot duties) had LNER group standard buffers and draw gear. The buffers I have used are from Alexander Models, and Dave's castings were always pretty accurate. 

 

The buffers are approximately 7mm long (roughly 1' 9" in scale terms?) and the head is roughly a scale foot in diameter. I think they are more or less the approximate dimensions of LNER group standard buffers but I am happy to be corrected. Perhaps the buffers look big because the loco is small. 

 

If you have a few models with group standard buffers would you be able to measure them if you get a chance? If mine are too big I'll get some replacements from Dave Franks. 

 

Many thanks

 

Chris