Izal/Ford Palvan diag. 1/221

[Evertrainz]

Hi all

 

I've quickly worked on a model of an Izal diag 1/221 Palvan, and I've got a number of questions.

 

How would the green shade of paint be described, as-built? When transferred to Halewood - Dagenham traffic would they be painted freight bauxite, or the Ford blue color?

Where would these vans realistically have worked? Was it a confined traffic or could they have been found anywhere in the region? 

Did the vans feature the Izal logo on all vans originally? Ford logo upon transfer?

 

Regarding the model here, I'm aware that the leaf springs are the wrong type for as-built condition. I'll have to create the proper springs once I find a good side-on shot. It's missing a lot of things and needs its door securing items and chains. Bottom lip railing is missing the door track guards. At first I had thought this would be an easy modification for the diag. 1/225 palvans but unfortunately it looks like the similar glass traffic palvans were a couple inches less wide so it's a fair bit more work to convert.

 

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Trog]

On 26/04/2020 at 20:28, Evertrainz said:

Hi all

 

I.................................

 

 At first I had thought this would be an easy modification for the diag. 1/225 palvans but unfortunately it looks like the similar glass traffic palvans were a couple inches less wide so it's a fair bit more work to convert.

 

 

IZAL R1  on Flickr

 

So not bog standard then.

[BernardTPM]

Peco used to make an (approximate) N gauge version in the late '60s, very contemporary to the actual wagons so the colours were probably close.

[Fat Controller]

Isn't the wrapper for the paper still in that green? 

Regarding the use of these vans; I suspect they may have been used in short strings in mixed trains to major cities, rather than complete trainloads. I noticed, when looking at a BTC film about freight modernisation in Sheffield, that there were still boxes of the stuff travelling as Sundries traffic, suggesting they didn't have a nationwide network of depots. The number of wagons in the Pool is quite small; Rowntree, who did have a country-wide network, used over three hundred wagons. and even they weren't used as block workings.

[SP Steve]

According to Dave Larkin, all Dia 1/221 vehicles were branded "RETURN TO CHAPELTOWN, E.R.".

 

There is a nice shot of two such wagons taken at Bridgehouses Goods Depot, Sheffield in February 1964 in "British Railway Vans Volume 2" by Geoff Gamble (Cheona Publications ISBN 1-900298-14-7).

 

The main difference in running gear that I can discern is that they are fitted with eight leaf springs and 'hooded' roller bearings. It also shows a smaller IZAL Products logo to that on the Peco offering, being fitted within the  uppermost panel on the right hand door.

 

Not sure that your description of 1/225 vans being a couple of inches less wide is the only difference - they had a 12' wheelbase rather than the 11' of 1/221 and were thus longer at 24' 5" over the buffers whereas 221 vans were shorter at 22' 2".

[Nearholmer]

Izal’s “house green” was horribly distinctive and familiar if your school used the dreaded toilet paper.

[SP Steve]

1 minute ago, Fat Controller said:

Regarding the use of these vans; I suspect they may have been used in short strings in mixed trains to major cities, rather than complete trainloads. I noticed, when looking at a BTC film about freight modernisation in Sheffield, that there were still boxes of the stuff travelling as Sundries traffic, suggesting they didn't have a nationwide network of depots.

 

Tend to agree re: usage as the Cheona picture illustrates exactly that.

[Fat Controller]

4 minutes ago, Nearholmer said:

Izal’s “house green” was horribly distinctive and familiar if your school used the dreaded toilet paper.

Was the 'medicated' part to deal with the inevitable paper cuts?

[LBRJ]

Izal Works

with a wagon hiding at the back of the picture

https://ecclesfield-district-archives.com/collections/newton-chambers-ltd/242572-izal-factory-station-rd-chapeltown-1963jpg#prettyPhoto

[Nearholmer]

12 minutes ago, Fat Controller said:

Was the 'medicated' part to deal with the inevitable paper cuts?

It was impregnated with carbolic, so if it didn’t get you by abrasion, it got you by chemical burns.

[SP Steve]

According to a 1961 WTT for the Sheffield area, the following workings were scheduled to operate via Chapeltown Central:

 

08:15 Wath Yard - Broughton Lane (arr Chapeltown 10:47, dep 11:02) Class K

18:23 Chapeltown Central - Broughton Lane Class J

 

07:20 Broughton Lane - Wath Yard (arr Chapeltown 08:38, dep 08:53) Class K

 

This would reinforce the notion that traffic from Izal would be tripped to the larger marshalling yards were it would be split into smaller consists for inclusion with other merchandise traffic.

 

[Evertrainz]

So they could have been blocked out as a train of Izal stock...... 

 

Would these vans (and any vans in general at the time) have been secured with a padlock? In pictures of vans at the time I only see the securing pin and no locks to keep thieves out.

 

Probably more relevant in this world now – the contents of these vans in a block train might lead to another great train robbery 

[Fat Controller]

13 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

So they could have been blocked out as a train of Izal stock...... 

 

Would these vans (and any vans in general at the time) have been secured with a padlock? In pictures of vans at the time I only see the securing pin and no locks to keep thieves out.

 

Probably more relevant in this world now – the contents of these vans in a block train might lead to another great train robbery 

The only wagons I know of that were locked as a matter of course were Gunpowder vans, and those carrying alcohol or tobacco, which also had a Crown Seal. Generally, the securing pin and latch would have been considered sufficient.

The Ford Pallet Vans were also locked after an incident where criminals tried to break into a train en route from Dagenham to Halewood. A pallet became dislodged, and fell on to an adjacent track, causing a serious collision with another train.

[Joseph_Pestell]

Am I right in remembering that Izal manufactured/sold disinfectant as well as loo paper?

[Wheatley]

Correct. The disinfectant was a by-product of the coke making process, the shiny paper was necessary to stop it disintegrating when the 'medication' was added to it. It was supplied in bulk to the sorts of organisations where price was more important than whether you  could actually wipe your backside with it,  triumph of marketing over practicality. It made quite good emergency tracing paper. I doubt very much whether anyone would actually have tried to steal it. 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Wheatley

[TheQ]

It was renown for being stolen..

 

 

 

 

To be thrown at football matches... 

[Fat Controller]

3 hours ago, Joseph_Pestell said:

Am I right in remembering that Izal manufactured/sold disinfectant as well as loo paper?

And railway wagons: Newton-Chambers built those car-carriers with the drop-down centre section.

[Evertrainz]

4 hours ago, Fat Controller said:

The only wagons I know of that were locked as a matter of course were Gunpowder vans, and those carrying alcohol or tobacco, which also had a Crown Seal. Generally, the securing pin and latch would have been considered sufficient.

The Ford Pallet Vans were also locked after an incident where criminals tried to break into a train en route from Dagenham to Halewood. A pallet became dislodged, and fell on to an adjacent track, causing a serious collision with another train.

 

Honestly I would have thought vans were sealed from the start, yesterday I'd read through the accident report of the stillage that sadly caused the tragic death of the driver, and withdrawal, of 83003. It was from one of these Izal palvans in the consist quoted as one of the "short wheelbase" vans - lacking steel raves on the bottom to prevent loads from sliding out. Although I would have thought fencing would generally be enough, the report states the fencing was cut at various sites in the area. 

 

Shots of the aforementioned Sheffield industrial film appear in this thread here: http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_1101038-Coventry-Climax.html . On the sliding door panel that bears the XP marking there's some more branding, I can't quite make it out. Anyone have ideas?

 

Would anyone happen to know when these vans were repainted out of green, if ever, and whether the Dagenham-Halewood would have looked like an... interesting... consist made up of electric blue, Ford navy blue, and Izal green? Shots of the train when first introduced (1964?) are rare, especially in color, so most of what I've found is inconclusive.

Edited April 27, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Evertrainz]

  

On 27/04/2020 at 06:24, SP Steve said:

Not sure that your description of 1/225 vans being a couple of inches less wide is the only difference - they had a 12' wheelbase rather than the 11' of 1/221 and were thus longer at 24' 5" over the buffers whereas 221 vans were shorter at 22' 2".

 

Fixed the running gear - my model for hooded Timken bearings is on the other PC (along with label clip, builder plate, solebar rivets etc) so I'll port them over when I get the chance. Also I didn't want to point this out but these wagons had the Derby type of clasp brakegear opposed to the LMS-with-BR-shoes I've used but I honestly believe nobody would notice in use 

I'm aware of the glass traffic vans being longer, it's much easier to stretch the van running gear and its panels by a feet or two along the length than shorten the width of the curved roof, end panels, door roller apparatus, solebar, etc. which would take the bulk of the conversion work (due to dealing with curves of the roof).

 

 

Also - here's another render, the wagon nearing completion. Staged based off a shot on Paul Bartlett's site showing the van with doors open in the Chapeltown facility.

 

Edited August 3, 2020 by Evertrainz

[Enterprisingwestern]

 

Pardon my ignorance, but is this going to be a 3d printed model or a computer thingy, and if the latter can it become the former?

 

 

Mike.

[Evertrainz]

12 minutes ago, Enterprisingwestern said:

 

Pardon my ignorance, but is this going to be a 3d printed model or a computer thingy, and if the latter can it become the former?

 

 

Mike.

Computer thingy

 

Although since it’s a relatively simple model I could try and convert a 3D printable model. I don’t think sliding doors would be possible though!

[Enterprisingwestern]

2 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

Computer thingy

 

Although since it’s a relatively simple model I could try and convert a 3D printable model. I don’t think sliding doors would be possible though!

 

Unnecessary IMHO!

I shall keep a watching brief, thanks.

 

Mike.

[Evertrainz]

Looking online it doesn't look like it's exactly cheap to print a wagon body: https://www.shapeways.com/product/YHGVZVHSS/lnwr-van .

 

Add to that the cost of sourcing a separate solebar and chassis (mine would indeed be too "thin" for printing), seems a bit excessive for a wagon. Would people still be interested?

[Mark Saunders]

3 minutes ago, Evertrainz said:

Looking online it doesn't look like it's exactly cheap to print a wagon body: https://www.shapeways.com/product/YHGVZVHSS/lnwr-van .

 

Add to that the cost of sourcing a separate solebar and chassis (mine would indeed be too "thin" for printing), seems a bit excessive for a wagon. Would people still be interested?

 

Doing a body suitable for an existing chassis would probably work either Parkside, or Red Panda kit would be acceptable or even a Bachmann or Dapol rtr one!

[Evertrainz]

18 minutes ago, Mark Saunders said:

 

Doing a body suitable for an existing chassis would probably work either Parkside, or Red Panda kit would be acceptable or even a Bachmann or Dapol rtr one!

 

I don't own a single (physical!) model myself so I wouldn't be able to test it myself, do either of the kit companies have a suitable underframe? As mentioned somewhere above this wagon was an oddball at 18ft9in headstocks, 11ft wb. and 7ft 4.5inch headstock width. I might be wrong but to my knowledge the only Derby clasp brake + chassis offered is Rumney Models but not sure how that works out for the elongated running gear and headstocks.

 

I can work up a model (after I finish the base model) that would fit nicely on the basic headstock dimensions mentioned above. If you see the door latch gear this might be a casualty of the 3D printer, as such fine detail would surely be lost. I can easily convert this apparatus to a CAD file so that those who are familiar with etching and all that physical magic can work something out. Also might be the case for the sliding rails under the doors - from what I've gathered Shapeways increases the price when more such smaller details are present.

 

I will start a separate topic in 3D printing if sufficient interest is gathered, but so far I can see a few things:

1. Chassis and underframe would be separate, as would OLEOs and couplers (screw not instanter) 

2. The door latch gear might be better suited for "etching" or other sorts of metal magic that I've got no business in

 

3. The door slide rails at the bottom might need to be "metalled" up as well - looks like a matter of a few metal strips and some very small metal bits folded 90 degrees in the render I've attached?

 

How have Bachmann and other model companies done such details on their wagons? What are your guys' thoughts on this?

 

Edited April 27, 2020 by Evertrainz